• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Quantum Leap:Lee Harvey Oswald ~ hated it

Status
Not open for further replies.
I always believed it was a conspiracy. I can't imagine changing that view considering the evidence. It's not like I want to believe in a conspiracy, mind you. I don't think the moon landing is fake or stuff like that. But the more I got into it earlier in this decade the more convinced I was. It helps that the overall European outlook on it had been more open to the conspiracy interpretation (though Germans in consensus do think the Mafia did it, outrageously). And of course Stones incredible film simply transcended this sad story to being a Frank Capra-esque tale of a never-ending quest for justice. It really made me want to find out more about this case.

But really, if you feel that way, like it couldn't have been a conspiracy, I suggest that maybe the news media has succeeded in wearing the defense down on that front. After all, they have always promoted the Warren Commission, and even notoriously and consistently leave out James Teague out of the list of people who were affected by the shootings. It doesn't help that the establishment allows works that promote the Allen Dulles fantasy theory to be made with huge names like JJ Abrams in the helm and Parkland made by the likes of Tom Hanks, yet have David Talbot's Brothers struggle for financing for a good decade now.

But I digress. To me, any open-minded individual can draw their conclusions, regardless of their loyalty to government or not. It's just common sense.
 
I genuinely hated this episode. It's also the only episode of the show I ever saw, and kept me off it for a long time. Actually, still has - still haven't seen the rest.

As for those who claim that Stones JFK info has been debunked.... Who said this? Newsweek? The New York Times? Has the Zapruder film been debunked? Have the witnesses who rushed to the grassy knoll era after the shootings been all debunked? Has there ever been one conclusive piece of evidence condemning Oswald? Certainly not the rifle, which changed from day to day, or the Magic Bullet which was at the end different from the weapon that was lastly charged to be the weapon of murder. Basically, some people want to believe Walter Cronkite when he says that the Warren Commission got it right. But facts are facts and you can't ignore them at your convenience.

So yeah, fuck this episode for saying that the myth of the Warren Commission matters more than the facts of history. Thank you and very sorry for this little outburst.
Except the “facts of history” quite definitively refute your “little outburst”. Oliver Stone’s movie and historical reality don’t occupy the same galaxy, let alone the same area code.

I’ve spent a good portion of the last 30 years having to refute the nonsense of that film in my classes. I’m quite thankful it’s no longer in heavy rotation among my recent students’ viewing habits.
 
Last edited:
S5 of QL, wasn't as good previous episodes, though the finalé is quite a good episode.

Yup. As much as Carolyn Seymour added much as Zoey, those Evil Leaper sequels were a real hit or miss with the most ridiculous of concepts in a misguided belief it would work, given the premise of the show. The first two were fairly solid despite the second one's ridiculous setup... but gaffes or not, the Dr Ruth episode was a waste, the one where Sam leaps into Dracula (!!) was just dim... ugh.

And having seen the original series ending before they replaced it with a pseudo-cliffhanger, that one had a greater impact. And was comparatively original than a black screen with big blue text reading "Sorry. Sam didn't leap home. T-t-t-t-t-hat's all folks!"

Side note: And if people say "Sliders" ripped off "Quantum Leap" then "Quantum Leap" surely more directly and brazenly ripped of 1982's "Voyagers!" (Note: None of those shows ripped off any of the others, they took a basic premise and made something far more complex and unique each time, with their own original tones.)
 
Except the “facts of history” quite definitively refute your “little outburst”. Oliver Stone’s movie and historical reality don’t occupy the same galaxy, let alone the same area code.

I’ve spent a good portion of the last 30 years having to refute the nonsense of that film in my classes. I’m quite thankful it’s no longer in heavy rotation among my recent students’ viewing habits.

That, along with "A Beautiful Mind" and undoubtedly scores of others, is why so-called "bio-pics" just aren't worth it (yet). More fiction melded with melodrama with mawkish muzak to be sold as actual fact, which at least 2% of the audience takes as pure gospel. Despite it being pure something else. Ranks up there with flapdoodle advertising like "The untold true story". Having said that, take it at face value - entertainment fiction - and that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable. As a realistic telling? Not as much...
 
I don't buy into Stone's theory, but there are many reasons to believe Oswald wasn't the only shooter. I saw one documentary that explained JFK going backwards from an odd angle that may have been an accidental shot by a Secret Service guard. But JFK would have died anyway. I don't believe in magic theories, but a lot about it doesn't add up as is.
 
As for those who claim that Stones JFK info has been debunked.... Who said this? Newsweek? The New York Times?

It was a magazine I read at my orthodontist's office back in the day -- I don't remember the name, but it was one of the more major and reputable newsmagazines. It might've been US News and World Report. I tried to track it down online just now, but I couldn't remember enough.


Has the Zapruder film been debunked? Have the witnesses who rushed to the grassy knoll era after the shootings been all debunked?

The article referred specifically to Stone's theory of the motive of the alleged conspirators, based on a think tank report about the consequences of Kennedy's peacemaking efforts. That report was admitted to be a hoax six months after it was published, but Stone's whole explanation of the reason for the assassination is built around the assumption that it's true.


Basically, some people want to believe Walter Cronkite when he says that the Warren Commission got it right. But facts are facts and you can't ignore them at your convenience.

But that's exactly why I do believe Cronkite -- because when he started his investigation, he believed that the Warren Commission was wrong and was trying to disprove their conclusion. But he ended up confirming it instead. That's very telling. If you end up proving what you wanted to prove, that could easily be your bias blinding you. But if you end up trying to prove one thing and conclude that the evidence proves the exact opposite, then that makes it very likely that your conclusion is free of bias. Cronkite believed there was a conspiracy and then proved himself wrong. He changed his theory to fit the facts, which makes him infinitely more trustworthy than those who twist the facts to fit their theories.

Also, there's only one right answer but countless wrong answers. So if a lot of different people independently look into the same thing and their results converge on the same answer, then that's very probably the right one. But if they diverge into many different paths, then they're probably looking in the wrong place for the right answer, or else they'd all end up agreeing on it. And the Kennedy conspiracy theorists have a dozen different theories and can't converge on a single explanation, while I'm aware of at least three investigations that separately, independently concluded that Oswald most likely acted alone -- the Warren Commission, the Cronkite/CBS News investigation, and an investigation conducted by PBS's NOVA in 1988 (narrated by Cronkite but conducted by a different group). Specifically, the NOVA investigation used computer simulation to prove that a single bullet could have struck both Kennedy and Connelly, and a separate NOVA investigation 25 years later (that I just learned about) used more advanced computer and forensic methods to confirm that finding.
 
I may be hated and loathed, but I actually kinda like the Season 5 theme :D
Ok maybe not as good as 1-4, but I don't mind it's more energetic tone.


Also as stated with the Dr Ruth, Elvis, Marilyn Monroe thing, it did feel like they were running out of ideas in s5. Like the Civil War "leaps out of his own lifetime" episode too.
Plus, not that I really minded though, but there's vampires, Bigfoot and aliens as well
 
After a surprise appearance by Dax in the very enjoyable A Leap for Lisa

I always wondered if Charles Rocket's character in that episode was a dig at TNG. Another "Commander Riker", yet this one's a psycho....

On a vaguely related matter, why the hell did they dub Dean Stockwell's voice over the actor playing young Al? Couldn't that guy have done an impression of Dean? It just sounded really weird having both older and younger Al talk with the exact same voice.

As for the Oswald episode: At the end, Sam leaps into a real person (Secret Service agent Clint Hill) and jumps on the back of the car, saving Jackie's life. When Sam leaps out again, is that an actual picture of the real Hill? It's at the 2-minute mark of this clip.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Fun fact: Clint Hill is still alive today. He's the only one left out of everyone who was in the presidential limo when JFK was shot.
 
Last edited:
That, along with "A Beautiful Mind" and undoubtedly scores of others, is why so-called "bio-pics" just aren't worth it (yet). More fiction melded with melodrama with mawkish muzak to be sold as actual fact, which at least 2% of the audience takes as pure gospel. Despite it being pure something else. Ranks up there with flapdoodle advertising like "The untold true story". Having said that, take it at face value - entertainment fiction - and that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable. As a realistic telling? Not as much...
If JFK (the film) had been a fictional political thriller, it would have been outstanding. On the one hand, the acting was excellent, cinematography first-rate, etc.--all the makings of a fine FICTIONAL drama. Stone's over the top hyping of it as "the truth" and his attempt at taking on the mantle of "historian" (in ways not ever claimed by any other filmmaker of historical feature films), on the other hand, was, frankly, insulting to those of us who actually ARE historians, as well as to the audience. Few, if any, other historical feature films (a research focus of mine) make the kind of truth claims Stone made with JFK (and many, many others are far less problematic when it comes to depictions of history). The issue is not limited to one of factual accuracy (that is a critique leveled at such films that is often overdrawn and which frequently misses the point of the film so targeted), but one of irresponsibility.

In the end, JFK has proven quite useful to me as a teaching tool--but not in the way Stone would like.
 
It was a magazine I read at my orthodontist's office back in the day -- I don't remember the name, but it was one of the more major and reputable newsmagazines. It might've been US News and World Report. I tried to track it down online just now, but I couldn't remember enough.

Theicle referred specifically to Stone's theory of the motive of the alleged conspirators, based on a think tank report about the consequences of Kennedy's peacemaking efforts. That report was admitted to be a hoax six months after it was published, but Stone's whole explanation of the reason for the assassination is built around the assumption that it's true.
If you're refering to the memorandum of October 1963 that Kennedy signed and said that several thousand soldiers were gonna come back at the end of 1963 and all American involvement was gonna end by 1965, yeah, that is not a lie. That is very much a fact. As explained in Untold History of the Us, Kennedy told his close aid, Kenny O'Donnel that his peacemaking policies were gonna make him rapidly unpopular throughout the country, because he was intent in harbouring an end to the Cold War. He knew he couldn't pull out completely from Vietnam because he feared retaliation from within his government and even his brother, Robert Kennedy, attested to this. If there was a chance to win the fight, he was gonna take it, but neither MacNamara nor Max Taylor found anything at all to support that thesis.

I am aware some historians have doubted this, but in all honesty is it unbelievable to think Kennedy, whose rationality helped avert the most devastating moment in world history (which came as a result of hardliners from both the Soviet Union and the US) would've done something akin to this? I mean, Ellsberg himself, who was quite critical of Kennedy for being duplicitous about the situation in Vietnam, was and is sure he would've come out of it. Robert MacNamara, too.

But that's exactly why I do believe Cronkite -- because when he started his investigation, he believed that the Warren Commission was wrong and was trying to disprove their conclusion. But he ended up confirming it instead. That's very telling.
Yes, it proves he succumbed to the lie out forth by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Literally nothing else if value.

proving what you wanted to prove, that could easily be your bias blinding you. But if you end up trying to prove one thing and conclude that the evidence proves the exact opposite, then that makes it very likely that your conclusion is free of bias. Cronkite believed there was a conspiracy and then proved himself wrong. He changed his theory to fit the facts, which makes him infinitely more trustworthy than those who twist the facts to fit their theories.
That's a the only worded insult befit of a published author (which you definitely are) but for the sake of academia, what are the facts?

Zapruders film alone showcases the impossibility of a single shot causing all the wounds in Kennedy's body, Connelly and the car itself, along with James Tague, who was conspicuously absent from the 50th anniversary coverages of the assassination, btw. The witnesses in the area prove there was activity nearby and indeed, the possibility of the shot coming from there stems from them alone. You have several people in that very area protecting the Grassy Knoll from the courageous citizens who actually rushed there to SEE what they thought came from there, while pretending to be Secret Service agents when, in 1979 the House Select Committee on Assassinations declared that there was not a single one there, at least officially. You have the ludicrous single bullet theory which, outside of Stones dissection of it, is still a ludicrous explanation for what happened. But that isn't what's crazy, what's crazy is you have a bullet shatter bones of two, maybe three people and shatter glass, and still come out as intact in a stretcher in Parkland Hospital.

Beyond the above, you have the Doctors and staff who operated on Kennedy in Parkland Hospital, who saw in his body the result of a shootout consistent with the Zapruder film. All of the Doctors involved have, every time they were asked, confirmed he had a gaping hole in the back of his head, which was inconsistent with the grizzly, outrageous and frankly sacriligeous post-mortem mutilation his body received in Bathesda.

Finally, you have Oswald. A murderer who was never proven to be Kennedy's killer until after he died, and whose lack of testimony could have been held in contempt and liable for lawsuit given it was never transcribed and transcripted, therefore invalid.

there's only one right answer but countless wrong answers. So if a lot of different people independently look into the same thing and their results converge on the same answer, then that's very probably the right one. But if they diverge into many different paths, then they're probably looking in the wrong place for the right answer, or else they'd all end up agreeing on it.
Except that's is nonsense. That is the taking the assumption, that the Warren Commission had every intent in making an honest, consistent and thorough investigation that explained how the events of that day came to be and what exactly happened. And everyone who disagrees with the Warren Commission, including the said House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 70's, agree that the said report is incomplete and warranted further information.

the Kennedy conspiracy theorists have a dozen different theories and can't converge on a single explanation
Again, they all do. That Oswald was part of a conspiracy that, ultimately, framed him. Hows that for consistent? At this point, you're trying to prove that there is not a consensus, when there is one, just not on who lead the operation (some say the Mafia, for example), but most rational thinking individuals will tell you that the official story doesn't hold water.

while I'm aware of at least three investigations that separately, independently concluded that Oswald most likely acted alone -- the Warren Commission, the Cronkite/CBS News investigation, and an investigation conducted by PBS's NOVA in 1988 (narrated by Cronkite but conducted by a different group). Specifically, the NOVA investigation used computer simulation to prove that a single bullet could have struck both Kennedy and Connelly, and a separate NOVA investigation 25 years later (that I just learned about) used more advanced computer and forensic methods to confirm that finding.
Meanwhile, hundreds of marines, marksmen and what have you have routinely attempted the shoot and have failed, one after the other. And it follows common sense. I served in intelligence in my country and have discussed this issue with various other officers, and it is a common joke in the army, at least here in Europe - the marksman who couldn't shoot.

And you concomitantly left out the aforementioned House Select Committee on Assassinations which, in the late '70's concluded that JFK was likely the victim of a conspiracy which included Oswald. And as far as I'm concerned, while not the closest-to-the-truth conclusion, it's easily more credible that the WC spearheaded by Allan Dulles, one of the most despised architects of the US' intelligence apparatus and a facilitator for some of the worst coups catapulted around the world. And that despite the fact it was consistently met with opposition and continual hurdles, namely by the CIA as all of their requests for further information on all sorts of issues, including the extraordinary activities of Oswald while in the USSR (which everyone seemingly ignores - a penniless intelligence officer who defects to the US' mortal enemy, the USSR, finds work in their intelligence community, marries a Russian and then is allowed to come back to the US... without so much as a conviction for treason! In the early '60's!!)

At the end of the day, it's easier to think that one guy did it. One lone nut. One crazy dude who killed the President. It's easier because as a people, you can ignore the larger question that posits responsibility about the conduct of government and what it is and should be doing. Kennedy was killed because he was opposed to the self destructive path it was leading itself with Vietnam, and history proved him (and his brother) rigjt through Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers, which showed the consistent pattern of hardlining post-WWII generals that were intent in military expansion without regard to their own. The fact that it's a dilemma that is posited even today is not incidental - as a people, Americans haven't risen to the challenge of holding the government accountable for these continual invasions of other nations under false pretences. But hey, maybe Ellen is right and we need to be kind to everyone, even to the war criminals. And maybe we should be naive, govenment-friendly citizens who are rightly shocked when the leader of the free world is shot by a communist sympathiser. Afterall you can't blame no one. Everyone weeps and moves on with their lives. Except, even the craziest killer has a reason. I mean, at least Bush explained his invasion on Iraq was to "liberate" the Iraqis from Saddam's oppressive regime. Oswald, however, claimed from minute one he was a patsy.

Btw, can anyone share how Oswald's description surface only shortly after the shooting?
 
Except the “facts of history” quite definitively refute your “little outburst”. Oliver Stone’s movie and historical reality don’t occupy the same galaxy, let alone the same area code.
Except much of the film is pretty much close to what happened. Most, if not all the events described in the film, is proven and not the figment of someone's imagination.

I’ve spent a good portion of the last 30 years having to refute the nonsense of that film in my classes. I’m quite thankful it’s no longer in heavy rotation among my recent students’ viewing habits.
Sounds like you are a lousy teacher (and I am one myself, for that matter). You should be applying the films message at the end of the film that said to draw one's own conclusions and search out on his own. I wouldn't wish to be in any class you teach. Allan Dulles would be proud of you.
 
Except much of the film is pretty much close to what happened. Most, if not all the events described in the film, is proven and not the figment of someone's imagination.
No. Not really. Not even close.

Sounds like you are a lousy teacher (and I am one myself, for that matter). You should be applying the films message at the end of the film that said to draw one's own conclusions and search out on his own. I wouldn't wish to be in any class you teach. Allan Dulles would be proud of you.
For steering my students away from unsubstantiated rumours and fantasies? Pretty sure I'm doing it right. I have searched through the material, at length. That's how I know Stone is dreaming (it's why I don't waste my students' valuable and limited time on debunked drivel). And I'll let my several teaching awards for excellence stand for my quality rather than the unfounded opinion of a stranger on the internet.

But do go on enjoying Stone's fantasies. Like all good fiction, they are entertaining. Toodles.
 
No. Not really. Not even close.
Hahaha, OK. If you say so.

For steering my students away from unsubstantiated rumours and fantasies?
How are they fantasies? Are you disputing the numerous evidence in the film, including the Zapruder film? That's nuts!

Pretty sure I'm doing it right. I have searched through the material, at length. That's how I know Stone is dreaming (it's why I don't waste my students' valuable and limited time on debunked drivel). And I'll let my several teaching awards for excellence stand for my quality rather than the unfounded opinion of a stranger on the internet.
That is not a response, that is elitism. I was gonna challenge to offer me definitive proof of anything, but you have a superiority complex, and I'm just about done talking to you.

But do go on enjoying Stone's fantasies. Like all good fiction, they are entertaining. Toodles.
And you keep on enjoying the warped sense of reality you live in, with your narrow worldview and even more narrowed thinking. I hope that your students are more open-minded and forward thinking than you are, sir.
 
JFK conspiracy theories are bullshit. They were worn thin by the time notorious self-promoter Jim Garrison kicked the bucket.

Something did go on with the King assassination, though.
 
https://www.history.com/news/jfk-assassination-grassy-knoll-theory-debunked
Physics disproves the grassy knoll "theory".

in November 2003, on the murder’s 40th anniversary, I watched an ABC News documentary called The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy. In one segment, the producers showed the actual car in which the president and the others had been riding that day. One feature of the car, which I’d never heard or read about before, made my jaw literally drop. The back seat, where JFK rode, was three inches higher than the front seat, where Connally rode. Once that adjustment was made, the line from Oswald’s rifle to Kennedy’s upper back to Connally’s ribcage and wrist appeared absolutely straight. There was no need for a magic bullet.

The Grassy Knoll, Part 1: Frame 313

Kennedy was shot twice: first through the neck (by the bullet that went on to pierce Connally), then in the head. The Zapruder film captured this shot too, in Frame 313. The image was deemed so horrifying that it was excised from public viewings of the film until 1975, when President Gerald Ford (who’d served on the Warren Commission) ordered it released. I remember watching the fully restored film on TV. It really was horrifying. You saw the top of President Kennedy’s head literally blown off. But it was creepy for another reason: the blown-off piece of his head blew backward. In other words, it looked like that fatal bullet was fired not from behind Kennedy, like the first bullet, but from in front of him. Were there two gunmen after all—Oswald in the book depository and someone else perched in the area known as the “grassy knoll”?


I went back to the library and scoured the Warren hearings. There I found neurologists testifying that a nerve ending can explode when hit by a bullet and that the two trajectories—where the bullet came from and which way the nerve fragments fly—are not necessarily related. Experiments from the 1940s, in which bullets were fired into the heads of live goats, revealed this fact. So, the evidence of Frame 313 was at least ambiguous; it said nothing, one way or the other, about the plausibility of a second-gunman theory.

However, in 1975, CBS News, which was doing a documentary on the assassination, hired a tech firm to conduct a high-resolution analysis of the Zapruder film, using instruments that hadn’t existed in the Warren Commission’s day. The firm discovered that, on Frame 312, Kennedy’s head slammed a tiny bit forward, and much more quickly than it jolted backward an instant later on Frame 313. The implication: The bullet hit his head from behind, pushing him forward, then a nerve exploded, which happened to push him backward.


The Grassy Knoll, Part 2: The Acoustical Analysis

special committee to reinvestigate the Kennedy assassination. After many hearings and extensive analysis, the panel concluded that there had been a second shooter after all. This surprise conclusion was based on a newly discovered piece of evidence—an audiotape from a radio transmission from a Dallas policeman who’d been escorting JFK’s motorcade.*According to the House report, an acoustical analysis of the tape revealed that four gunshots were fired—and that, given the echo patterns and the officer’s location, one of those shots came from the grassy knoll.

The report stirred such commotion that the National Academy of Sciences conducted its own analysis of the tape—and concluded that the House report was hooey. First, it turned out that some of those four gunshot-like sounds were not gunshots. Second, the motorcycle cop in question was not where the House report claimed, so even if the sounds had been gunshots, a revised echo analysis put them someplace other than the grassy knoll. Third, some of the sounds on the tape occurred a minute after the assassination.

Case closed.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...-bullet-and-grassy-knoll-dont-make-sense.html

A very detailed version of the physics that disprove the grassy knoll theory:
https://www.cell.com/heliyon/fulltext/S2405-8440(17)33188-2

As for the House Committee in the late 70s? Vincent Bugliosi's Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy has quite thoroughly debunked that report.

Obviously, no appeals to reason can overcome convinced conspiracy theorists (Stone himself suggests the absence of evidence for the conspiracy--particularly the lack of even ONE (from among the hundreds necessary for his theory to hold water) participant's leaking of it--acts as proof of the conspiracy's reality). But between Bugliosi, Posner's Case Closed and the physics of the most recent experiment (let alone many other compelling refutations), I feel quite confident Stone's version is a fantasy, as are the myriad conspiracy theories floating out there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top