I for one didn't mind one bit they didn't show up in DS9. There was enough of them already in both TNG and VOY.
Q, the Borg, and DS9
- Thread starter Arpy
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I would have settled for them just running out of photon torpedos or shuttlecraft at some point.
That would have been a whole lot more interesting way to handle the Borg. Imagine, a show in which there are consequences for choosing wrongly.
Yeah, if they had to buy local weapons when their own supplies ran out. Maybe an interesting morality play about buying super advanced weapons from a local who’s a bad character but they have little choice but to given the enemies (Kazon, Viddian, Swarm, Hirogen, etc) on their heals. What local regime are they supporting in doing so? Or what do they have to exchange for it? Might it tip the balance of power in the region? Etc.
The Borg might be tricky on DS9. They couldn’t be the cavalry that comes in at the last moment to save them because you want the war to play itself out, not have the goodies saved at the last minute deus ex machina, The End. If for no other reason than you now have half the galaxy be Borg and a wormhole to the yard door. What a downer way to end the series — that should be about fulfilling the promise of the Gamma Quadrant.
That said, I can see two DS9 movies that could use them. The series ends as it ends but then in movie 1 the Borg and Dominion clash, and in movie 2 the victorious Borg (previously thwarted by the Prophets, the now overthrown gatekeepers) launch a full scale invasion of the Alpha Quadrant and everyone has to unite against them. It’s be impossible, but I could actually see Sisko not in the first one but back for this one….or maybe he’s the gatekeeper at the end of the first one that thwarts the Borg, but now becomes mortal again in a last-ditch effort to stop them after they get through.
I kind of hate what I’m about to say next, but, this could be an opportunity to do a crossover event where the Federation flagship and Borg expert Voyager also find roles to play.
I don't know. It's (supposed to be) a big galaxy. Why should the same space station and two starships end up doing Everything?
Also from a storytelling point of view, there would be way too many characters. You'd have to have all the regulars from all the series or that series' fans would feel cheated, but that leaves too many characters to keep track of for lukewarm fans who haven't practically memorized all the series before. And if they brought in all those characters, there wouldn't be enough new to interested the dedicated fans who have memorized everything. The movie (or miniseries) can't win.
Also from a storytelling point of view, there would be way too many characters. You'd have to have all the regulars from all the series or that series' fans would feel cheated, but that leaves too many characters to keep track of for lukewarm fans who haven't practically memorized all the series before. And if they brought in all those characters, there wouldn't be enough new to interested the dedicated fans who have memorized everything. The movie (or miniseries) can't win.
Yeah, I do loathe such suggested crossovers, but for some big Star Trek 30th Anniversary event movie or something it might have worked, if they did it well. I mean, I hate that it’s all out characters that we just so happen to know, but they’re all the Borg experts too, so it almost kind works.
That would have been excellent. Unfortunately, the creators of Voyager had very little interest in that kind of nuance, or in challenging our characters. It's a real shame.
Harry or Chakotay were among the least utilized of the cast and therefore a relatively safe choice. If they'd really had some balls, they'd make Janeway a casualty. (Not that I would want her gone, but I mean, from a storytelling and daring to take a risk and shaking up the status quo- point of view -- Of course, it might just as well have effectively ended the series as Mulgrew was one of the key actors carrying the series.)
I have thought a lot of the Borg appearing on the show (and am surprised that it not happening was not Behr wanting to be very distant from TNG) but while it not happening was a bit of a missed opportunity it would also be hard to have them and not be silly, for a space station to somehow survive or defeat them when they usually destroy fleets, come on. I can see there being good character reactions and interactions about them but like with Voyager our heroes on their own beating the Borg would have at the least made the ending a groaner.
Q, I don't really think there was potential for more than what we did see, his strong relationship was very much appropriately just with Picard and Data and he with Sisko felt very forced crossover, I can maybe see him getting more interested in relationship and/or feud with Bashir and Dax (some of the fun-loving, pleasure-focused characters, though he usually didn't with Riker) or trying to mock the Prophets and Kira and Sisko's Emissary role but that probably is a bit too much clash when the writers are inclined to make Q comical and not too bad while the Prophets usually were taken quite seriously.
Q, I don't really think there was potential for more than what we did see, his strong relationship was very much appropriately just with Picard and Data and he with Sisko felt very forced crossover, I can maybe see him getting more interested in relationship and/or feud with Bashir and Dax (some of the fun-loving, pleasure-focused characters, though he usually didn't with Riker) or trying to mock the Prophets and Kira and Sisko's Emissary role but that probably is a bit too much clash when the writers are inclined to make Q comical and not too bad while the Prophets usually were taken quite seriously.
It's interesting to imagine how "Deathwish" might have worked as a DS9 rather than VOY episode, with Odo playing advocate instead of Tuvok. Otherwise, while there's boundless potential for Q stories, they might have jarred with the later tone of the series, and "Q-Less" wasn't an especially successful episode.
As for the Borg, I have a hard time imagining that not ending with the destruction of the station, so unless they were actually going to destroy the station and replace it with a new one (and a season arc of a new station being constructed might have had potential), I'm just as glad the Borg never showed up.
As for the Borg, I have a hard time imagining that not ending with the destruction of the station, so unless they were actually going to destroy the station and replace it with a new one (and a season arc of a new station being constructed might have had potential), I'm just as glad the Borg never showed up.
Sisko would have probably reluctantly sided with the Continuum, talk about that suicide is not acceptable and he cannot condone it (though maybe someone on the station would have helped Quinn anyway).
I think it's too bad that at least a Deep Space Nine Borg novel hasn't happened (sure them encountering the Borg would be a pretty big thing to try to claim happened offscreen and just wasn't shown or otherwise referenced but it could work).
If DS9 had gone another 7 seasons, eventually they would've brought in the Borg for lack of new ideas, so we could get a joint Starfleet-Dominion-Klingon-Romulan throwdown against the Borg. But it would be the Bajoran Militia that saves the day, of course. 
If DS9 had gone another 7 seasons, eventually they would've brought in the Borg for lack of new ideas, so we could get a joint Starfleet-Dominion-Klingon-Romulan throwdown against the Borg. But it would be the Bajoran Militia that saves the day, of course.
or the Ferengi Mercenary Fleet.
Space is pretty big. They could have done a story about encountering the Borg in the Gamma Quadrant and dismantling a star system for some unknowable Borg reason.
Another about the Dominion being aware of the Borg presence — this has been their region of space for thousands of years — and Byzantinely preparing for it. Maybe even kidnapping Borg experts from the AQ — Lore? O’Brien? Shelby? Picard??
Another about the plan blowing up in both their faces.
All the while Sisko working through his past with them. Maybe he’s seeing visions of and working things through with Jennifer, who —late-inning twist(!) — turns out to be a pah-wraith?
Another about the Dominion being aware of the Borg presence — this has been their region of space for thousands of years — and Byzantinely preparing for it. Maybe even kidnapping Borg experts from the AQ — Lore? O’Brien? Shelby? Picard??
Another about the plan blowing up in both their faces.
All the while Sisko working through his past with them. Maybe he’s seeing visions of and working things through with Jennifer, who —late-inning twist(!) — turns out to be a pah-wraith?
Q might have been interesting on DS9 especially. “Deathwish” could have worked. The Defiant encounters a strange comet in the Gamma Quadrant…
I don’t know about the other stories though. The “Q and the Grey” might have been one super-being civil war too many.
But maybe one about loneliness? Something new the Q are feeling since the chosen death of one of their own? DS9 is not a place foreign to lonely people. Maybe even Vash does a cameo, conjured back by Q before she rejects him again. We’ve all been there, and this could be the Trek episode about loneliness. Sisko maybe has some thoughts on it himself after losing Jennifer. His wormhole vision seemed pretty bleak in “Emissary.”
Another episode (maybe before the loneliness one) could be a visit by Continuum investigator Corbin Bernsen who played Q2 on TNG. He’s there to review what lead to the death of Quinn a million times going back in time to launch the same investigation from every angle — or in different universes of the multiverse…DS9’s “Parallels” episode?
This could even be the same one as the loneliness episode…it’s Q2 showing the Continuum’s loneliness in his zealous investigation.
I don’t know about the other stories though. The “Q and the Grey” might have been one super-being civil war too many.
But maybe one about loneliness? Something new the Q are feeling since the chosen death of one of their own? DS9 is not a place foreign to lonely people. Maybe even Vash does a cameo, conjured back by Q before she rejects him again. We’ve all been there, and this could be the Trek episode about loneliness. Sisko maybe has some thoughts on it himself after losing Jennifer. His wormhole vision seemed pretty bleak in “Emissary.”
Another episode (maybe before the loneliness one) could be a visit by Continuum investigator Corbin Bernsen who played Q2 on TNG. He’s there to review what lead to the death of Quinn a million times going back in time to launch the same investigation from every angle — or in different universes of the multiverse…DS9’s “Parallels” episode?
This could even be the same one as the loneliness episode…it’s Q2 showing the Continuum’s loneliness in his zealous investigation.
I don't think Q was a good fit for DS9, but I do wish we had gotten Sisko vs. Borg II. I suppose the episode "Emissary" started the process of Sisko dealing with his grief, but still it would've been sweet to see him face them again. I have long felt that Sisko would've worked as well, or maybe even better, than Picard in the First Contact movie.
Maybe a comedy about the gods picking on a mortal. A random character we’ve never seen before on DS9, one of the little people in the background going about his day on the Promenade gets targeted for divine torment, just ‘cause. It’s a random act of misfortune the universe has decided to wreak upon him, and Q just passing the time.
All the while no one seems interested or capable of helping him, from his landlord to Sisko himself — too busy with some A-story we never get to see.
It’s a bit of the Book of Job, a bit of a Lovecraftian horror, a bit of existentialist theater.
At the end he musters all the dignity he has left to tell off Q and die man unafraid, or to put his faith in the Prophets or what have you, and Q just doesn’t reappear. He’s bored, or off to his next thing, or what have you, and the mortal sits at a bench and waits as the camera slowly pans away.
All the while no one seems interested or capable of helping him, from his landlord to Sisko himself — too busy with some A-story we never get to see.
It’s a bit of the Book of Job, a bit of a Lovecraftian horror, a bit of existentialist theater.
At the end he musters all the dignity he has left to tell off Q and die man unafraid, or to put his faith in the Prophets or what have you, and Q just doesn’t reappear. He’s bored, or off to his next thing, or what have you, and the mortal sits at a bench and waits as the camera slowly pans away.
I think the tweet almost does the DS9 writers a disservice. Firstly forbidden by whom? I think it was likely more the producers than the studio.
Everyone knew that Q's appearance was not a good one on DS9 and it did fine to set things up but then that was enough. I do think Borg was more Voyager's thing but remember they didn't appear in Voyager until 4.5 years after DS9 started. I think DS9 was just forging its own way.
So there's a difference between the studio interfering and the writers going "Borg are not our thing".
DS9 from the start did its own thing with the Bajorans, the three parter in season two etc. And let's remember the Klingon war *was* foisted on them.
Everyone knew that Q's appearance was not a good one on DS9 and it did fine to set things up but then that was enough. I do think Borg was more Voyager's thing but remember they didn't appear in Voyager until 4.5 years after DS9 started. I think DS9 was just forging its own way.
So there's a difference between the studio interfering and the writers going "Borg are not our thing".
DS9 from the start did its own thing with the Bajorans, the three parter in season two etc. And let's remember the Klingon war *was* foisted on them.
Good writers can make almost anything work. There could have been potential for interesting stories with both Q and the Borg on DS9, but yes, ultimately it's best they weren't used (or used again, in Q's case).
The tempting thing would be to involve Q in the Prophet's business, somehow, but that would have demystified the Prophets, and I think leaving them mostly unexplained was a good move the writers made.
The big move for the Borg would have been the Gamma Quadrant. The post-DS9 books answered the question of whether the Borg could assimilate a Founder, but that was a question we had during the run of the show. I think the Borg would have worked better post-Dominion War. Maybe the Borg invade the Gamma Quadrant and the Dominion is forced to ask for help from the Federation. Of course, if "What We Leave Behind" happened the way it did, then Sisko would be off the table, unless a reasonable explanation for him being involved worked.
Overall, I don't think using either Q again after his one appearance or the Borg would have been a good idea.
The Borg could have been mentioned more often, though. The episode "Second Sight" from the second season takes place on the anniversary of the Battle of Wolf-359. It might have been interesting to make that a day like "Rememberance Day" (as introduced in Strange New Worlds), or at least a day like Pearl Harbor Day or 9/11 where people pause to reflect on that day and showing Sisko's (and even Jake's) growth over the seasons.
I get the timing aspect (you have to give people time to see the movie, of course), but more references to First Contact would have been nice. A mention about the Defiant being unavailable due to repairs and Sisko being upset over missing the battle (sort of akin to Picard at the start of the movie). I don't think it would have given too much away (and could have even hyped the movie) if Sisko confers with an admiral who tells him that the Defiant is needed, but that Sisko is to stay on DS9 ("Ben, we all know how you feel about the Borg, but the thing is, we can't make this personal. Besides, what if the Dominion takes advantage of this to catch us with our guard down? No, we need you on DS9. Send Worf, his experience in fighting the Borg coupled with the Defiant might just be enough to turn the tide.").
The tempting thing would be to involve Q in the Prophet's business, somehow, but that would have demystified the Prophets, and I think leaving them mostly unexplained was a good move the writers made.
The big move for the Borg would have been the Gamma Quadrant. The post-DS9 books answered the question of whether the Borg could assimilate a Founder, but that was a question we had during the run of the show. I think the Borg would have worked better post-Dominion War. Maybe the Borg invade the Gamma Quadrant and the Dominion is forced to ask for help from the Federation. Of course, if "What We Leave Behind" happened the way it did, then Sisko would be off the table, unless a reasonable explanation for him being involved worked.
Overall, I don't think using either Q again after his one appearance or the Borg would have been a good idea.
The Borg could have been mentioned more often, though. The episode "Second Sight" from the second season takes place on the anniversary of the Battle of Wolf-359. It might have been interesting to make that a day like "Rememberance Day" (as introduced in Strange New Worlds), or at least a day like Pearl Harbor Day or 9/11 where people pause to reflect on that day and showing Sisko's (and even Jake's) growth over the seasons.
I get the timing aspect (you have to give people time to see the movie, of course), but more references to First Contact would have been nice. A mention about the Defiant being unavailable due to repairs and Sisko being upset over missing the battle (sort of akin to Picard at the start of the movie). I don't think it would have given too much away (and could have even hyped the movie) if Sisko confers with an admiral who tells him that the Defiant is needed, but that Sisko is to stay on DS9 ("Ben, we all know how you feel about the Borg, but the thing is, we can't make this personal. Besides, what if the Dominion takes advantage of this to catch us with our guard down? No, we need you on DS9. Send Worf, his experience in fighting the Borg coupled with the Defiant might just be enough to turn the tide.").
Interesting....I am glad DS9 did not include the Borg or more Q episodes, both had been fully explored before. One thing I never understood about the Q continuum is why, as the most powerful, if not omnipotent, beings in the universe, they were hardly taken seriously...one Q could basically wipe out an entire galaxy, yet they never seemed to be much cause for concern. The writers kept redefining them, but to me they came across as the least convincing adversaries in Trek.
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