Production Quality Of Picard

[NCC-73515]

Cool. Where's the part in PIC that I should be scared of that reflects the Federation?

the show is not only about the federation, actually mostly about non-fed worlds

 

[fireproof78]

the show is not only about the federation, actually mostly about non-fed worlds

The utopian aspects have rarely been about the non-Fed worlds.

 

[Sci]

To say that something is "more dystopian" because it is not perfect is deceptive and inaccurate language. "Dystopia" is not a synonym for "any fictional society where bad things happen." It is not even a synonym for "a setting where terrible things happen" or "a setting where crimes against sentient beings" happen. Dystopia refers specifically to societies primarily characterized by authoritarianism and/or oppression.
[...]
You can reasonably say the Federation is depicted in darker terms than in TNG. That would be a defensible position, particularly with regards to the development of widespread (but not universal!) prejudice against synths. But it's really not reasonable to use the word "dystopian" for a society that, while deeply flawed, is still not fundamentally oppressive.

A dystopia (from Ancient Greek δυσ- "bad" and τόπος "place"; alternatively cacotopia or simply anti-utopia) is a community or society that is undesirable or frightening.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia

By that definition, the bar on karaoke night is a dystopia.

No, seriously -- "a community or society that is undesirable or frightening" is a definition so vague that it could encompass literally any society to someone. The Federation as depicted in TNG would be a dystopia to an-caps, for instance. That definition of "dystopia" is so broad as to be meaningless.

 

[NCC-73515]

By that definition, the bar on karaoke night is a dystopia.

No, seriously -- "a community or society that is undesirable or frightening" is a definition so vague that it could encompass literally any society to someone. The Federation as depicted in TNG would be a dystopia to an-caps, for instance. That definition of "dystopia" is so broad as to be meaningless.

You can find Merriam-Webster and Oxford Dictionaries meaningless, of course.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean I can. Thus far, though, the only thing meaningless is the insistence that the Federation is dystopic in its presentation. I don't know what's frightening but apparently I missed it in my watching...

 

[Lord Garth]

Is utopia really utopia? I have an idea of what "utopia" would be that wouldn't be anything like a certain someone else's idea of utopia. Their idea of Utopia would be more like my idea of what Living Death is.

I've been fighting Living Death since the middle of my 20s. The idea of "the way things are supposed to be" repels me.

 

[fireproof78]

Is utopia really utopia? I have an idea of what "utopia" would be that wouldn't be anything like a certain someone else's idea of utopia. Their idea of Utopia would be more like my idea of what Living Death is.

I've been fighting Living Death since the middle of my 20s. The idea of "the way things are supposed to be" repels me.

Utopia is the Q Continuum.

 

[Sci]

You can find Merriam-Webster and Oxford Dictionaries meaningless, of course.

This is a spurious argument; anyone who has ever investigated the full meaning of contentious vocabulary can tell you that dictionaries are often deeply inadequate in their definitions. Seriously -- just talk to any goddamn English professor.

 

[NCC-73515]

So you have a different interpretation of the word - doesn't mean it's universally true for everyone.

FC was 'darker' than INS, which was 'lighter', and yet both had something to do with the Federation. It's not just 100% oppressive cruel state OR 100% dancing fairies and flying chicken nuggets. Tone, drama, depiction of violence, tragic events, all factor into it.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Utopia is the Q Continuum.

"The universe is not so badly designed."

 

[JamesRye]

Back to the production quality of Picard, and I've just finished watching the Mandalorian, which I thought was great. It was recognisably Star Wars. They didn't feel the need to redesign the aliens, the style of the ships or the look and feel. With Star Trek Picard and DSC, they did. I wonder if this contributes to the lack of merchandise for Picard and Discovery?

 

[Mytran]

Back to the production quality of Picard, and I've just finished watching the Mandalorian, which I thought was great. It was recognisably Star Wars. They didn't feel the need to redesign the aliens, the style of the ships or the look and feel. With Star Trek Picard and DSC, they did. I wonder if this contributes to the lack of merchandise for Picard and Discovery?

Picard merch:
https://shop.startrek.com/collections/star-trek-picard
Or did you mean children's toys? I think the boat sailed on that field when the Kelvinverse figures and sets bombed so badly. Paramount & CBS are going to sell what sells

 

[eschaton]

Is utopia really utopia? I have an idea of what "utopia" would be that wouldn't be anything like a certain someone else's idea of utopia. Their idea of Utopia would be more like my idea of what Living Death is.

I've been fighting Living Death since the middle of my 20s. The idea of "the way things are supposed to be" repels me.

Utopia is an ideal which can never be achieved, not a final destination.

If you showed how modern humans live compared to say 500 years ago, I believe that at first glance they would believe it's a utopian world - or close to it. You chance of getting randomly murdered is very small, children seldom die of illness, the poor have a standard of living greater than the rich had at that time, etc. Of course, we don't see things that way at all - but that's because we are used to the present-day - it's our norm - so the flaws of the present are manifest.

I think it's probably similar for the 24th Century in Star Trek. By our standards at first glance it seems wonderful. The replicator means we've passed the rubicon of post-scarcity, and it appears that no one has to work any longer simply to survive. But once you scratch the surface, there are problems. Which really isn't surprising, because human nature is what it is (and it's not infinitely malleable) meaning no matter how comfortable you make life, and no matter how well-designed the institutions, people will find some way to muck things up.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Back to the production quality of Picard, and I've just finished watching the Mandalorian, which I thought was great. It was recognisably Star Wars. They didn't feel the need to redesign the aliens, the style of the ships or the look and feel. With Star Trek Picard and DSC, they did. I wonder if this contributes to the lack of merchandise for Picard and Discovery?

Picard didn't really significantly redesign anything.

 

[fireproof78]

So you have a different interpretation of the word - doesn't mean it's universally true for everyone.

FC was 'darker' than INS, which was 'lighter', and yet both had something to do with the Federation. It's not just 100% oppressive cruel state OR 100% dancing fairies and flying chicken nuggets. Tone, drama, depiction of violence, tragic events, all factor into it.

So what is frightening, what is dystopic, about the Federation in Picard?

Back to the production quality of Picard, and I've just finished watching the Mandalorian, which I thought was great. It was recognisably Star Wars. They didn't feel the need to redesign the aliens, the style of the ships or the look and feel. With Star Trek Picard and DSC, they did. I wonder if this contributes to the lack of merchandise for Picard and Discovery?

Merchandise has not been Trek's strong suit for a long time. Comparing them to Star Wars is a fools errand, because merchandising has been built in to that from the word go.

Also, what was redesigned in Picard that couldn't be recognized as Star Trek?

But once you scratch the surface, there are problems. Which really isn't surprising, because human nature is what it is (and it's not infinitely malleable) meaning no matter how comfortable you make life, and no matter how well-designed the institutions, people will find some way to muck things up.

Indeed. And that has been a part of Star Trek again and again and again and again.

 

[Makarov]

I've got a few t shirts, a hat and an awesome poster of Picard on the vineyard but I wish there were old school figures like you can find of TNG. Collect all Rios holograms

 

[NCC-73515]

So what is frightening, what is dystopic, about the Federation in Picard?

the show is not only about the federation, actually mostly about non-fed worlds

Better decompress that shuttlebay XD

 

[Sci]

So you have a different interpretation of the word - doesn't mean it's universally true for everyone.

FC was 'darker' than INS, which was 'lighter', and yet both had something to do with the Federation. It's not just 100% oppressive cruel state OR 100% dancing fairies and flying chicken nuggets. Tone, drama, depiction of violence, tragic events, all factor into it.

Sure. And FC was not dystopian!

If you would just acknowledge that something can be darker or more disturbing but concede that the word dystopian doesn't apply to a society with political freedom and economic prosperity, we could actually discuss the substance of whether or not PIC made the Federation too dark. But we can't, because you're assigning the maximum possible negative value to the Federation in PIC, which is just absurd.

 

[NCC-73515]

If you would just acknowledge that something can be darker or more disturbing but concede that the word dystopian doesn't apply to a society with political freedom and economic prosperity, we could actually discuss the substance of whether or not PIC made the Federation too dark. But we can't, because you're assigning the maximum possible negative value to the Federation in PIC, which is just absurd.

You need another round in the time loop... here we go:

as i tried to explain before, the point is that there are degrees in between and it's not purely black or white, and in that gray area, the shows don't occupy the same position. we are arguing that PIC is closer to dystopia than the others. closer doesn't mean 100%. just like the others were never 0%. why are grays on a linear scale such a difficult concept?

less utopia = more dystopia =/= total dystopia.

It's not just 100% oppressive cruel state OR 100% dancing fairies and flying chicken nuggets. Tone, drama, depiction of violence, tragic events, all factor into it.

So where am I assigning "the maximum possible negative value", instead of explicitly pointing out that this is not the case?

 

[fireproof78]

More the question is where in Picard is the leaning towards dystopia on our imaginary utopia/dystopia spectrum than before?