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Production Quality Of Picard

Again none of what Stewart says is representative of a dystopia. We don't live in a dystopia and I would argue that Picard doesn't even qualify as dystopian fiction. The federation is not depicted as a fascist state. Picard is free to question it, and go where he pleases. The fact that the federation became insular and hawkish because of the synthetic attack is not enough to qualify it as a dystopia or even as more dystopian.
Indeed. Same with use of the term "grim-dark." Just because Picard shows the darker aspects of Federation society doesn't make it dystopian.

I would argue that much of what Picard shows are elements of the Federation that have been present in one way or anther but are amplified by recent struggles, like the Dominion War, Shinzon's attack, and various other threats. Suddenly an attack happens right inside Sector 001 from technology that was considered safe. Suddenly, people are not feeling so safe any more and it causes and insular and protectionist stance. Sounds very similar to Admiral Leyton's response to the Founders.
 
In the first episode of 'Star Trek: Picard' itself, when questioned about his decision to save Romulans after the supernova and why he left Starfleet, Picard angrily says, "Well, Starfleet wasn't Starfleet!" The gravity of this dialogue is unmistakable, and we see that throughout the show. Starfleet has become isolationist and the Romulan refugees are abandoned. The Federation itself is depicted as little more than a military bureaucracy modelled on the present-day United States.

Federation citizens are shown working for money, and some have far more privileged lives than others. There's drinking, vaping, swearing, grit and grime.

Whether it's a dystopian view of the future or not is in the eye of the beholder. I just happen to think it's more dystopian (or darker if you prefer) than previous incarnations. Certainly, I would rather live in the World of TNG than the more frightening and undesirable World depicted in Picard.

Some even feel we're in a dystopia now! Charlie Brooker, the incredible writer of Dark Mirror is finding it hard to write new episodes as he watches what's happening in some countries.

'At the moment, I don’t know what stomach there would be for stories about societies falling apart, so I’m not working away on one of those.’
 
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One time, when I was six, we got a pizza. I didn't want pepperoni. So my mother told them, "half plain, half pepperoni". We got home, opened up the pizza box, and guess what it was? All pepperoni. They didn't listen. So I just wouldn't eat it. I didn't want it.
Quoted for context.
Can I have your slice?
Sure. Help yourself!
Is it gluten-free? ;)
I don't think they had gluten-free pizza in the '80s, but for this thread we'll retcon it so they did. Have at it!

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Oh, yeah, there's the serious part of this post. Let's get this over with...
In the first episode of 'Star Trek: Picard' itself, when questioned about his decision to save Romulans after the supernova and why he left Starfleet, Picard angrily says, "Well, Starfleet wasn't Starfleet!" The gravity of this dialogue is unmistakable, and we see that throughout the show. Starfleet has become isolationist and the Romulan refugees are abandoned. The Federation itself is depicted as little more than a military bureaucracy modelled on the present-day United States.

Federation citizens are shown working for money, and some have far more privileged lives than others. There's drinking, vaping, swearing, grit and grime.
Well, if that's our standard for Dystopia, then if 2399 is a "dystopia" then so is 2020. I don't know if I'd disagree with you, just not for the same reason. If you're willing to call both a dystopia, then fine. If you're only going to call 2399 the dystopia, then no. Dystopia would be "Everything's destroyed!"

For the different classes of society, I have no doubt that the 24th Century eliminated poverty. But that doesn't mean everyone lives the Lifestyles of the Rich & Useless Famous.
 
I still don't see as what is being depicted as dystopian.

Whether it's a dystopian view of the future or not is in the eye of the beholder. I just happen to think it's more dystopian (or darker if you prefer) than previous incarnations. Certainly, I would rather live in the World of TNG than the more frightening and undesirable World depicted in Picard.
What the hell is frightening about the Federation in PIC? We're not shown much of the Federation day to day. FreeCloud is not the Federation, Raffi's living choice is just that-her choice. I have yet to see the Federation as more dystopian.

People work for money? Yeah, so did Okonna, Vash and others. It's not new to Star Trek.

And personal preference of where one lives doesn't make it dystopian. Yes, I think the term "darker" is better suited. Dystopian carries with it a lot more weight and that weight is not ever close to reflected in Picard.
 
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I still don't see as what is being depicted as dystopian.
I was still editing my post, so I might've added more since you and Lord Garth posted. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. LLAP

"What the hell frightening about the Federation in PIC?"
That they would callously abandon refugees.
 
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I was still editing my post, so I might've added more since you and Lord Garth posted. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. LLAP
I saw that and edited my own.

I do agree that "darker" is a better term than dystopian. I don't think the Federation is depicted any scarier than in past Treks. Freecloud is, sure, but that's not the Federation.
 
I see the Federation in 2399 as something that's gone into middle-age. It's too entangled in different things for anything to be easy anymore. It's had to make choices it doesn't like just to keep all of its members satisfied. It's lost sight of or interest in the idealism it had in its youth because they've come to accept "What it is" instead of thinking "This is what I'm going to change it into!"

And Picard leaving Starfleet "Because it was no longer Starfleet!" is them splitting paths because now they're moving in different directions. Picard is trying to fight against what it's turning into.

So maybe these ideals aren't about the Federation. Maybe these ideals survive the Federation instead. Maybe, maybe not, but that could be the angle PIC and DSC S3 are going for.
 
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Federation citizens are shown working for money, and some have far more privileged lives than others. There's drinking, vaping, swearing, grit and grime.

Previous eras of star trek have shown plenty of drinking, star fleet officers smuggling banned substances under medical pretext, no smoking signs. swearing, a guy vacuuming, and wealth. Clearly the balance has shifted to excess in terms of militarism, xenophobia, etc, but honestly,, wouldn't it be cool to live in a future where you could do all the drugs you wanted without consequence?
 
I was still editing my post, so I might've added more since you and Lord Garth posted. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. LLAP

"What the hell frightening about the Federation in PIC?"
That they would callously abandon refugees.

Yeah because the federation was never callous in TNG was it? This is the same federation that signed people's homes over to the cardassians without the consent of the people and insisted they deal with it and be relocated or live under a cardassian boot. This is the same federation that branded its own people terrorists for defending their homes. This is the same Federation that did nothing to prevent the Bajoran holocaust because of the prime directive and only stepped in when the cardassians left. Yeah the federation has never acted callously before STP.
 
Where is everyone getting the idea from that the Federation has become isolationist? In 2386, the Federation was all too happy to help out the Romulans with their plight to evacuate their planet. After the evacuation fleet was destroyed, a new fleet wasn't constructed because a few Federation member planets changed their minds about helping the Romulans. How does this make the Federation isolationist? "Isolationism" means that they would be cutting themselves off from the rest of the galaxy, but there's no evidence that this is the case.
 
In the first episode of 'Star Trek: Picard' itself, when questioned about his decision to save Romulans after the supernova and why he left Starfleet, Picard angrily says, "Well, Starfleet wasn't Starfleet!" The gravity of this dialogue is unmistakable, and we see that throughout the show. Starfleet has become isolationist and the Romulan refugees are abandoned.

And these are terrible, terrible things. But they're not truly dystopian. A dystopia would require the Federation itself to embrace authoritarianism as a political ethos internally; there's no evidence of this whatsoever.

The Federation itself is depicted as little more than a military bureaucracy modelled on the present-day United States.

This is absolutely false. We see people going about their lives, free people with full bellies, in Boston, in Paris, in LaBerre. There is no indication, for instance, that police engage in systemic, racially-motivated violence. There is no indication that peaceful protesters will be teargassed and shot at for arguing that agents of the state should be held accountable if they commit violent crimes against people. There's no indication whatsoever that they live under the thumb of Starfleet. We see Starfleet behaving like a military bureaucracy, because it is a military bureaucracy. And it's not one based on the present-day U.S.; the United States Armed Forces does not have a single flag officer with operational command over the entire organization the way Fleet Admiral Clancy serves as commanding officer of all of Starfleet.

Federation citizens are shown working for money,

Which is not dystopian. Even in many models of socialist utopias, workers still get paid. And there's nothing in PIC that precludes the possibility that most firms are worker-owned co-ops where the means of production are communally owned.

and some have far more privileged lives than others.

I am not convinced that this is true. Raffi insinuates it, but Raffi is, like Jean-Luc, living in a cycle of self-destructive behavior that involves alienating people who love them. Dahj seems to be a recent university graduate who doesn't have a job yet, but she's certainly living in the kind of apartment I would have killed to have as an unemployed 22-year-old.

There's drinking, vaping, swearing, grit and grime.

So, first off, drinking and vaping are not inherently dystopian. The characters that do that, are all characters who have chosen to live outside of the Federation and/or outside of the Federation's mainstream cultural mores. (Remember, Freecloud is not a Federation Member State.)

And swearing is absolutely not dystopian. In fact, the idea that swearing is bad, is itself a product of an oppressive, classist culture. It's also absurd -- one arbitrarily-culturally-defined vocalization cannot be "worse" than others. Hell, in the 15th Century, "golly" was considered the most obscene possible word, because it was a contraction for "God's Body," a blasphemous interjection. Now it's considered the archetype of interjections spoken by people who are morally innocent. Swearing is not bad, and it's both dishonest and unrealistic of TNG not to have included it in its characters' general vocabularies.

Certainly, I would rather live in the World of TNG than the more frightening and undesirable World depicted in Picard.

I mean, it's a dystopia that required about three weeks' worth of direct action from Jean-Luc and his friends to get the Federation to realize they'd made a terrible mistake in banning Synths and abandoning the Romulans. We should be so lucky to live in a world with so little wrong with it.

Some even feel we're in a dystopia now! Charlie Brooker, the incredible writer of Dark Mirror is finding it hard to write new episodes as he watches what's happening in some countries.

We may well live in a dystopia today. I mean, hell, here in the U.S. you can't peacefully protest police brutality without risking being teargassed. But there is no indication whatsoever that the Federation of PIC subjects its citizens to the kinds of brutality and oppression the present-day United States visits upon its people.

Where is everyone getting the idea from that the Federation has become isolationist? In 2386, the Federation was all too happy to help out the Romulans with their plight to evacuate their planet. After the evacuation fleet was destroyed, a new fleet wasn't constructed because a few Federation member planets changed their minds about helping the Romulans. How does this make the Federation isolationist? "Isolationism" means that they would be cutting themselves off from the rest of the galaxy, but there's no evidence that this is the case.

I think the fact that the Federation not only refused to help the Romulans still in their system after the Mars Attack but that it also abandoned already-established Romulan refugee colonies like Vashti, is a strong indication that the UFP has become somewhat more isolationist. A Federation that's out there engaging with the galaxy to bring stability and peace would not have done that. But, again, isolationism is a far cry from dystopia per se.
 
I keep being fascinated by the very idea that Raffi living in a lightweight modular home with all 24th century amenities (okay, perhaps not a holosuite, but still) is somehow tantamount to Dickensian squalor and is an evidence of a severely stratified economy when her whole situation comes from the fact that she wanted to go off the grid. Would it be better if she had an entire remote planet just for herself like those random guest stars in the Berman era did?

Reading all these complaints again and again of the Federation in modern Trek being dystopian because some people drink, have drugs, participate in a money economy and (the horror) use swearwords that have been used since at least the High Middle Ages gives off the impression for me as if some people have watched only the first two seasons of TNG and nothing else. Even TNG toned down the condescending "we've all evolved past our barbaric, animalistic past" preaching after Gene was once again pushed to the sidelines, and it actually made the entire setting more believable and welcoming.
 
I don't think PIC is dystopian. People underestimate the "dark" in previous incarnations of Trek in retrospect. And the worst aspects of the setting took place outside of the Federation. Remember the godawful "rape gangs" Yar mentioned in the first season of TNG? The main difference is that PIC can be much more graphic when it comes to depicting things, due to the change in broadcast standards. This in itself might not be entirely a good thing (I watched the TNG premier at age 8, and had seen a lot of TOS/TAS/some Trek movies before that - I wouldn't suggest Kurtzman Trek to my kids) - but it's a different issue.

That said, I think there are two things which basically are in tension when it comes to Star Trek. One of them is that Trek is supposed to be an optimistic future where humanity "does better." The other is that writers have to create interesting characters and stories with conflict. The latter tends to mean that the writers want to create flawed characters who don't always get along, and give them serious obstacles to overcome. The issue is that this plunks "contemporary" people into flawed world much like our own, which kind of erodes the idea of any social progress taking place. Note that the writers hated, absolutely hated, the Roddenberry straitjacket, and basically had to deal with it by seldom focusing on Earth and the Federation itself, with the action taking place in some "flawed" area of the galaxy, and the boring utopia mostly taking place off camera.

To an extent, the same thing happened in Picard. As I noted, the worst shit - like Freecloud and the Romulan refugee planet - happens outside the Federation. The one aspect I really thought was tone deaf was Raffi's little monologue about Picard's "big house" - which heavily implied some sort of class structure on Earth that completely conflicts with the rest of canon. Anyone can replicate up nice copies of all his stuff anyway right? Chabon's off-camera explanation on Instagram kinda made it worse, because he implied that maybe Earth was post scarcity, but the safety net wasn't quite strong enough to stop someone screwing up their live on purpose (and who refuses help) like Raffi - that she was "poor" due to her own life choices. Which is frankly a very conservative standpoint.
 
So, Raffi is supposed to be forced to have help? O_o

Not that ethics and patient confidentiality have done well in Star Trek future but I find the idea of forcing treatment on a person, who protecting them from their own choices to be odd, to say the least.
 
Enforcing things on a person to make them seem more socially acceptable = utopia, because you can't see cracks in society

Letting people be flawed = dystopia, because individuals make bad choices, which are visible.
 
I'm going to quote an exchange between @Tenacity and I, from the Future of Trek Forum, that I think sums up the situation perfectly.

The century matters less than how it's presented. If the 24th Century had always been portrayed as it is in Picard, I never would've been tired of it. Even DS9 is still defined by how it contrasts itself to Textbook TNG. Picard doesn't do that. It's its own thing with the 24th Century looking like a real, living universe. It's closer to a 2399 that I can actually picture, if we accept the conceit of humanoid aliens.
In my own mind, the federation during TNG was always like it is in Picard, it's just that we saw TNG through Captain Picard's rose colored glasses.

This is it, right here.
 
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