Production Order Group Viewing 2018

[Mytran]

ERRAND OF MERCY - another anti war episode! If they keep recycling plots like every 4 weeks, I can't see this "Star Trek" series lasting beyond its first season

Other initial thoughts:

• In a contrast to the mundane opening of last week, this episode’s teaser includes a full on ship to ship battle and the outbreak of interstellar war!
• Why is there a science officer at the navigation station?
• Automatic deflector screen snapped on – what a useful feature!
• Ah, the curious whimsy of Hollywood’s “medieval” costumes: Ayelborne wears nylon tights and sandles, everyone else has sheepskin legwarmers, and Kirk uses a piece of string as a belt!
  
• Speaking of which, Kirk and Spock retain their gold and blue preferences when they change into native clothing. I guess the Organians found the colour scheme pleasing.
• Those Klingon disruptors look very familiar. Could the Klingons have been secretly selling arms and weapons to the Eminians from A Taste Of Armageddon? They certainly sound the same when fired!

Finally, Kor is just excellent!!!
We are indeed fortunate to have John Collicos and Ricardo Montalbahn less than a month apart. If the producers can keep the calibre of guest actors up so high, this series could go on for decades!

All the pronunciations of Klingon. Soft g, hard g. And Sulu's got a pronunciation all his own.

There's certainly a lack of consensus!

• Uhura: Kling-gons
• Kirk: Kling-ons
• Sulu: Kling ‘uns
• Claymare: Kling Gons
• Kirk (after speaking to Sulu): Kling ‘uns
• Kor: Klingons

Also, extra points for the way Kor pronounces “vegetable”

Those self opening doors in the council chamber really ought to have tipped Kirk (and certainly Spock) off that all was not as it appeared. Are Starfleet officers really so immersed in their futuristic lifestyle that they simply don’t notice such “everyday” features?
Of course, Kirk and Spock accept Trefayne’s “intuition” at face value - it's possible they assume that another man has a door-related form of telekinesis, I suppose

It’s a great moment at the end when Kirk is on the verge of passionately arguing for the right to wage war, only to realise what he is actually saying. It's a nice subversion of the “Kirk speech”

Kirk’s final acknowledgement is like a part 2 of his reflection on what this season has taught him. Yes he’s encountered powerful aliens before, but that was always in deep space. This time, they affect Earth and his Starfleet directly and he sees them rather differently.

 

[Poltargyst]

City on the Edge of Forever

Okay, what's happened to our participation, people? This thread fell onto page 2!

One of the things that's fun about this rewatch for me is seeing these episodes again and remembering how I saw them as a boy. Yes, now as an adult I have new insights, things I never could have thought of as a kid. But I'm enjoying reliving the excitement I had for this show. I was a kid. My favorite episodes involved battles, Kirk punching out the badguys, firing phasers at enemy ships, aliens, monsters, Kirk kissing the hot ladies. This episode has none of that. Well, other than Kirk hitting on the hot lady. This is the episode that wins awards and gets all the fanfare. Maybe this episode is the most technically well done. Maybe it has the best writing, directing, acting. But for me? What turns me on in an episode? Meh. It's okay, it's Star Trek, but...meh.

Also, as I've said before, I'm not really crazy about these time travel stories where we have to spend the episode fretting about changing the future.

Also as I've said before, not real crazy about these episodes that take place in the 20th century.

Ripples in time. Hmmm. Is that like a wrinkle in time?

Is that one technician McCoy blows past the Emergency Medical team?

How many times have we seen transporter technicians jumped already? They really need to face forward at all times. Or station a security guard there at all times.

Cool how the Guardian looks with the ruins around it.

Uhura leading the search for McCoy? A black woman leading white men in the 60's? Whoa.

The Guardian has been there since before the sun??? The sun is some 4.5 billion years old. The Guardian is older than that??? And Kirk is the first to ask a question in front of it in all that time??? They really need a sequel to explain that mother of all ancient civilizations.

Haha. "Why don't you watch where you're going?" "Well, double dumb ass on you!" Kirk just doesn't get traffic patterns of the 20th century.

Heh. Stone knives and bearskins. Sarcasm, Spock?

Spock calls him "Jim" when he needs to tell Kirk the bad news.

Well, Jim, what are you doing falling in love with Edith anyway? You know you can't stay there anyway.

Actually, they should take Edith to the future. She could be with Kirk, experience the space travel she already knows is going to happen, and not mess up the timeline. I wonder if that's possible with the Guardian.

As the bum vaporizes himself with the phaser, it reminds me that last week I commented on how the Organians have imposed their will on the entire Federation, so surely they will not be able to use weapons anymore, and yet they still carry them. Although I notice they did not need violence to solve the problem other than the violence done to poor Edith which was supposed to happen anyway.

Oh, look! A Trump rally! Sorry, sorry, couldn't help myself.

"I'm in love with Edith Keeler." Dumbass.

"Edith Keeler must die." Good name for a band.

Wow, even knowing that it's going to happen, it's still pretty gut-wrenching when it does.

Kirk's loneliness is one of the overarching themes of the series revisited here.

Awful dangerous leaving the Guardian alone. Suppose the Klingons or Romulans find it. And it announces itself by sending out time distortions. Wouldn't surprise me if the Federation didn't send a ship to permanently defend it or outright destroy it.

Now that I think about it, this episode isn't really about the city on the edge of forever, which I take to be the ruins. We definitely need a sequel about the city that is now those ruins.

Does the Guardian count as an alien? It says it is and isn't. Well, I conditionally put Ruk on the list, so...

Talosians
That big ugly Rigellian guy Pike fought in illusion
Vina as an Orion girl in illusion
Glimpse of other aliens captured by Talosians
Ron Howard's brother
That dog from Enemy Within
Salt monster
That hand plant...Gertrude
Spock (duh)
Charlie's parents (Thasians)*
Romulans!
(Ruk)
Miri's planet kids (bonk bonk)
Giant ape creatures of Taurus II
Shore Leave Caretaker guy
Trelaine and his folks*
Gorn
Metrons*
The Lazerii
The remarkably human-looking aliens of Beta 3. (RotA)
The remarkably human-looking aliens of Emineminar VII (AToA)
The Triffids of Omicron Ceti III (TSoP)
The refreshingly non-human-looking Horta
Organians*
Klingons! (Remarkably human looking).
(The Guardian of Forever)

*Alien Watch sublist: omnipotent aliens!

 

[mb22]

Awful dangerous leaving the Guardian alone. Suppose the Klingons or Romulans find it.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Mind-Sifter

 

[johnnybear]

Yep, I thought I recognized that storyline! I've got that book somewhere but I've never read it! also there is a story where the crew beam into the real world where Star Trek is a TV series and they, Kirk,Spock and McCoy meet Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley!
JB

 

[mb22]

Yep, I thought I recognized that storyline! I've got that book somewhere but I've never read it! also there is a story where the crew beam into the real world where Star Trek is a TV series and they, Kirk,Spock and McCoy meet Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley!
JB

You might be thinking of http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Visit_to_a_Weird_Planet_Revisited
In it Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley are beamed onto the actual Enterprise a la "Mirror Mirror", taking the place of their fictional characters.

"Mind Sifter" was also made into an episode of the fan film series New Voyages.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That would be http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Visit_to_a_Weird_Planet_Revisited

No, that's the one where the actors beam onto the real ship.

You're thinking of:
https://fanlore.org/wiki/Visit_to_a_Weird_Planet

 

[Poltargyst]

I think I read that. I vaguely remember a scene where Shatner steps onto the bridge of the real Enterprise and thinks how much bigger it is than the set version.

 

[Mytran]

At last, time for the much lauded City On The Edge Of Forever!

This episode is strong on character but somewhat lighter on plot – much of the time is spent hanging around waiting for Spock to build his Mnemonic Memory Circuit so they can figure out what to do.
The ending however is extremely poiniant – Shatner really sells the turmoil about the sacrifice he has to make and Nimoy’s “he knows, Doctor” just caps it off perfectly.

• It might be a silly question, but is that the first exploding console since WNMHGB? Poor Sulu takes it right in the face!
• Mad McCoy has crazy strength – he nearly breaks the railing in the Bridge and pushes a stone pillar around with ease!
• Nice uneven sandy floor on the GOF’s planet – much better than the smooth mining caverns from a couple of weeks ago
• Scotty points out the absurd long odds in finding McCoy in the past. Then, stoic as ever he adds “Good luck gentleman”
• Lt Uhura follows up with “Happiness at least”, a desire Edith mentions in her first speech to the homeless.
• The set that represents the “flop” house is excellent – 3 levels, apparently! I wonder if it was borrowed off another production?

Kirk and Spock trying to look casual on the street corner when they first arrive is goofy and hilarious. This moment is mirrored in ST4, when Kirk instructs his crew to look natural.
Then there’s the routine with the policeman: Does every time travel adventure with these two bozos end up as a comedy of errors?

"Guardian of Forever" is at first an ill fitting title, since it seems to do such a poor job of guarding the timeline. However, what if it is a guardian of time loops? Edith Keeler would never have died if she wasn’t distracted when crossing the road to meet Kirk, Spock & McCoy so if they hadn’t been there, history would never have unfolded as it should. I believe that the GOF manipulated events on the planet to ensure that the 3 men would find themselves in 1930 to fulfil their destiny.

 

[Pauln6]

Although CotEoF isn't my favourite as it is with many, it is a beautiful story. I love a good pre-destination paradox (so it's interesting to consider that it was the possibility that Kirk and Spock, who were locked outside of time, might not go back that changed history rather than McCoy's presence) but I've always felt that the many worlds theory of time travel is a cheat because the original timeline carries on as before and the viewer is just jumping tracks. It's pretty hollow.

My view is that the past has already happened. Anyone who travels back in time has always been there. They don't suddenly appear there the moment they travel back. How could they? The past has either already happened or is happening eveywhen all at once.

But there is so much to love in this episode. Edith is a great character and her relationship with Kirk feels very real. The interplay between the characters feels right and the steps they take to adapt are great fun. I love the instructions Kirk leaves the other members of the landing party. It shows that he has confidence in their abilities.

It's a joy to watch Uhura in charge of the white male security team.

If I have two disappointments the first is that I would have enjoyed this one as a two-parter if more of Harlan Ellison's original script had remained, and the trip back in time had been at the end of part one, even if I prefer the Guardian to the aliens in the early version.

The second is that Ellison's version of Rand was freaking awesome and could have set her on a path to be more of a capable action herione had she remained, which could have had a knock on effect on other female characters going forward. It's quite shocking to see how the original role was stripped away in re-writes leaving Uhura afraid.

I do think that the Guardian is a character I would have loved to see again and pissing off Ellison so badly was a huge mistake.

 

[Maurice]

People keep missing that there's apparently no way to bring Edith back. To wit...

KIRK: Make sure we arrive before McCoy got there. It's vital we stop him before he does whatever it was that changed all history. Guardian, if we are successful...
GUARDIAN: Then you will be returned. It will be as though none of you had gone.​

...which implies they're stuck there until they fix the time fracture. And this is reinforced by Kirk telling Scotty...

KIRK: Scotty, when you think you've waited long enough. Each of you will have to try it. Even if you fail, at least you'll be alive in some past world somewhere.​

...because, otherwise, IF they could return at their choosing, they could fuck up, return to the present, go back and try again.

The universe is estimated to be ~3x the age of our Sun, so for the Guardian to have existed before then is not outside the realm of believability.

 

[Pauln6]

People keep missing that there's apparently no way to bring Edith back. To wit...

KIRK: Make sure we arrive before McCoy got there. It's vital we stop him before he does whatever it was that changed all history. Guardian, if we are successful...
GUARDIAN: Then you will be returned. It will be as though none of you had gone.​

...which implies they're stuck there until they fix the time fracture. And this is reinforced by Kirk telling Scotty...

KIRK: Scotty, when you think you've waited long enough. Each of you will have to try it. Even if you fail, at least you'll be alive in some past world somewhere.​

...because, otherwise, IF they could return at their choosing, they could fuck up, return to the present, go back and try again.

The universe is estimated to be ~3x the age of our Sun, so for the Guardian to have existed before then is not outside the realm of believability.

But would the others go back to the same past as Kirk and Spock, an alternate past with alternate versions of Kirk and Spock, or an alternate past with just them?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But would the others go back to the same past as Kirk and Spock, an alternate past with alternate versions of Kirk and Spock, or an alternate past with just them?

If they each went to their own alternate past, how could they be going to the same one that McCoy went back to?

 

[Pauln6]

If they each went to their own alternate past, how could they be going to the same one that McCoy went back to?

Exactly! McCoy going back and changing history happened. In going back, they enter a separate, parallel timeline where they meet alternate McCoy in a universe where they always went back. They return in that universe.

The real McCoy is living his life with Edith in the first parallel universe. What happens to original Scotty, Uhura, etc? It might be that they are in a pocket outside time so I think they are the originals. Or are they?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The real McCoy* is living his life with Edith in the first parallel universe.

No. The real McCoy* is the one Kirk and Spock met when Edith got hit. The Guardian said so when it said they would all be returned and that it would be as if none of them had gone.

* - Ha!

 

[Pauln6]

No. The real McCoy* is the one Kirk and Spock met when Edith got hit. The Guardian said so when it said they would all be returned and that it would be as if none of them had gone.

* - Ha!

Lol. The Guardian can't have it both ways. If it's not a predestination paradox (it can't be because they jump timelines after he goes back) then it must be many worlds. If it's many worlds, they can't go to the same timeline as original McCoy because he's already gone back to the timeline where he saves Edith. When Kirk and Spock go back, they are going back to the timeline where Kirk lets Edith die so that the six people trapped by the Guardian can get back to the parallel timeline to their own (the only differences being the ones caused by Kirk, Spock, and McCoy).

Essentially, Edith died so that the crew could get home. No other reason.

I told you many worlds theory sucks.

 

[Mytran]

Lol. The Guardian can't have it both ways. If it's not a predestination paradox (it can't be because they jump timelines after he goes back) then it must be many worlds.

What makes you think they jump timelines? We only see events from the landing party's POV who simply experience a communication disruption - easy peasy for an entity like the GOF, done as a deliberate attempt to get Kirk & Spock to participate in its temporal games.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Lol. The Guardian can't have it both ways. If it's not a predestination paradox (it can't be because they jump timelines after he goes back) then it must be many worlds. If it's many worlds, they can't go to the same timeline as original McCoy because he's already gone back to the timeline where he saves Edith. When Kirk and Spock go back, they are going back to the timeline where Kirk lets Edith die so that the six people trapped by the Guardian can get back to the parallel timeline to their own (the only differences being the ones caused by Kirk, Spock, and McCoy).

Essentially, Edith died so that the crew could get home. No other reason.

I told you many worlds theory sucks.

That's a hard "no" all the way around.

 

[Pauln6]

What makes you think they jump timelines? We only see events from the landing party's POV who simply experience a communication disruption - easy peasy for an entity like the GOF, done as a deliberate attempt to get Kirk & Spock to participate in it's temporal games.

This is an acceptable compromise. I love a good pre-destination paradox.

 

[Maurice]

Presumably what "timeline" the others would jump back to would depend on when in time they arrived. If they arrived before Kirk and Spock they might alter things. If they arrive after but before Edith is supposed to die, they might cause a different direction, etc.

And the Guardian can "have it both ways" because in the original scripts it says "time is elastic" and that it can "resume its shape", so it's not a predestination paradox. If they prevent Edith from being saved, SNAP, it pulls back into its original shape so long as they don't create any other changes that influence a "focal point". It's too bad the staff rewrites cut all that stuff out.

 

[Pauln6]

Presumably what "timeline" the others would jump back to would depend on when in time they arrived. If they arrived before Kirk and Spock they might alter things. If they arrive after but before Edith is supposed to die, they might cause a different direction, etc.

And the Guardian can "have it both ways" because in the original scripts it says "time is elastic" and that it can "resume its shape", so it's not a predestination paradox. If they prevent Edith from being saved, SNAP, it pulls back into its original shape so long as they don't create any other changes that influence a "focal point". It's too bad the staff rewrites cut all that stuff out.

While many (most) sci fi writers claim time is elastic, that isn't really one of the options that scientists think can work. I loved the movie Twelve Monkeys but I had to give up on the series when they completely misunderstood the point. They had one character scoring a watch in the past instantaneously creating a scratch on the same future version of the watch.

That's not how time works. He either did or didn't scratch the watch in the past so it either does or doesn't have that scratch in the future. Given that he went back in time and scratched it, I should always have had that scratch.

Time can't snap back because Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are now part of history. History has changed so the entire timeline has changed, even if only locally.

Since McCoy went back and created a new timeline, when Kirk and Spock go back they also create a new timeline. So now we have three branching timelines: the original, the one where Edith lived, and the one where Kirk made sure she died. This is no different to the Kelvin Timeline and original timeline running parallel.

I accept that canonically, Star Trek time travel just works wrong, the Prophets and Times Arrow not withstanding.