Prisons in Star Trek.

[Edit_XYZ]

In Enterprise and DS9, Section 31 was established as being far more than one - or a few - amateurs playing espionage games. It was established as a force to be reckoned with.

What is debatable is whether Section 31 really does operate outside the law:

Its existence is allowed for by section 31, article 14 of the Starfleet Charter (a law still in force in the 24th century).

As for oversight - in canon, does any character claim that Section 31 has no oversight by Starfleet Security or the Federation Government?

If Sloan/another S31 agent claimed it - it is very convincingly arguable that this denial is standard procedure for S31 agents, whose purpose is to protect the superior echelons, the secrecy of Section 31's organizational structure AND to prevent a monster scandal which would topple Starfleet Intelligence/the Federation Government and S31.
If Bashir claimed it - .

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

does any character claim that Section 31 has no oversight by Starfleet Security or the Federation Government?

In "Extreme Measures" we learn that Section 31 had an operative inside the President's Cabinet. That sound like an organization that would report to that very same president?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

does any character claim that Section 31 has no oversight by Starfleet Security or the Federation Government?

In "Extreme Measures" we learn that Section 31 had an operative inside the President's Cabinet. That sound like an organization that would report to that very same president?

Counter-espionage agencies have agents in the command&control structures of their own countries.
Does this mean they are not answerable to their hierarchical superiors - and, up the chain of command, to their government?

S31 having agents in the presidential cabinet is not incompatible to it being answerable to Starfleet Intelligence - and, up the chain of command, to the Federation Government.

 

[T'Girl]

In "Extreme Measures" we learn that Section 31 had an operative inside the President's Cabinet. That sound like an organization that would report to that very same president?

To be exact, S31 had a "man" in the cabinet of one of the former Federation Presidents.

 

[jayrath]

A lot of this seems to come down to Section 31.

I appreciate that. I hope fans enjoy the debate. However, I hate it the very idea of Section 31. I don't consider it part of my personal canon. It is a complete betrayal of all that came before. I lump it with Spock's unknown brother. YMMV, but for me, that's the end of it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Counter-espionage agencies have agents in the command&control structures of their own countries.
Does this mean they are not answerable to their hierarchical superiors - and, up the chain of command, to their government?

If it's a matter of having undercover spies 'hiding' in their countries' highest levels of governments, sneakily reporting to their spy masters about what government officials are doing and making plans to eliminate said officials who become a problem (as Section 31 does regularly), then yes it does!

Real organizations which are known to the public, which conduct official business on behalf of their governments, and which must *answer* to said governments, do have representatives. The heads of the FBI, CIA, that type of thing. But that is another matter entirely. Those officials make reports to the country's leadership and are responsible to the President. Not at all the same thing as "Extreme Measures" showed.

 

[The Castellan]

does any character claim that Section 31 has no oversight by Starfleet Security or the Federation Government?

In "Extreme Measures" we learn that Section 31 had an operative inside the President's Cabinet. That sound like an organization that would report to that very same president?

Doubt it, I think Section 31 is more of the above the law group....doing anything it wants as it sees fit. Hell, today presidents are not the be all, end all of the political hierarchy, they are merely puppets and someone to look good for the pubic, or be a scapegoat for the public. I would not put it past Section 31 to arrange "an accident" to happen to the Federation president if they don't like what he or she is doing. Would not be surprised if the events that happened in ST6 had been arranged by Section 31. They, to me, are the type what answer questions and accusations of their policies with either a rifle butt across the temples or a rifle butt in the stomach, and them smiling afterwords.

 

[T'Girl]

If it's a matter of having undercover spies 'hiding' in their countries' highest levels of governments, sneakily reporting to their spy masters about what government officials are doing ...

Like what the FBI agents did for literally decades when J. Edger Hoover was running the FBI?

... and making plans to eliminate said officials who become a problem (as Section 31 does regularly) ...

Which DS9 episode was this please? Specifically the "regularly" part?

Real organizations which are known to the public ...

While intelligence isn't a cabinet position in the current American system, if S31 is quietly a part of the Federation, "their man" in the cabinet would be some like James Clapper (the Director of National Intelligence), S31 would ultimately recieve their authority, marching orders and oversight from someone like him. Even if he had actually never heard of any one in S31.

which conduct official business on behalf of their governments

Under the President, there is the Director of National Intelligence, under him there is the Director of CIA, under him is the Director of the National Clandestine Service (John Bennett). The CIA's NCS conducts covert operations; " ...where it is intended that the role of the US Government will not be apparent or acknowledged publicly."

What could possible lead you to think the Federation doesn't have something like this, and that part of that, is a tiny little bureaucratic sub-department called "Section 31?"

Chief O'Brien once estimated that S31 might be fewer than fifty people.

... and which must *answer* to said governments ...

Something like the Office of Congressional Affairs? Or a Select Committee on Intelligence? Or perhaps a Federation Council intelligence subcommittee?

How much objection did you think the Betazed representative to the Federation on that subcommittee would have with "preventive direct action" to threaten the Founders with extinction, after Betazed was attacked and occupied?

You know, because the JemHadar are always so nice to everyone they meet.

Not at all the same thing as "Extreme Measures" showed.

Really? Remember, if S31 isn't a private organization, then Luther Sloan is a tiny peon, and maybe a bit of a braggart too.


")

 

[Sci]

If it's a matter of having undercover spies 'hiding' in their countries' highest levels of governments, sneakily reporting to their spy masters about what government officials are doing ...

Like what the FBI agents did for literally decades when J. Edger Hoover was running the FBI?

An excellent comparison, given that the FBI was little more than a group of thugs working for Hoover and manipulating the legitimately-elected government, allowing Hoover an unprecedented amount of power over numerous presidential administrations. Hoover was as unaccountable, as above the law, as any tyrant in this country's history has ever been, and he's a prime example of how a powerful and unaccountable man can pervert democracy for his own agendas.

While intelligence isn't a cabinet position in the current American system, if S31 is quietly a part of the Federation, "their man" in the cabinet would be some like James Clapper (the Director of National Intelligence), S31 would ultimately recieve their authority, marching orders and oversight from someone like him.

Uh, no, Bashir's point was that Section 31 had a SECRET agent in the Cabinet to SPY on the Federation government.

What could possible lead you to think the Federation doesn't have something like this, and that part of that, is a tiny little bureaucratic sub-department called "Section 31?"

The Federation has an intelligence agency -- Starfleet Intelligence. Section 31 is not Starfleet Intelligence, does not answer to Starfleet Intelligence, and makes it clear that they answer to no one.

Chief O'Brien once estimated that S31 might be fewer than fifty people.

No. BASHIR once estimated that the Founder virus could not have been formulated, generated, and propagated by less than 50 people.

How much objection did you think the Betazed representative to the Federation on that subcommittee would have with "preventive direct action" to threaten the Founders with extinction, after Betazed was attacked and occupied?

Hopefully plenty. After all, he's seen how horrible mass murder is from its effects on his world--he shouldn't want to inflict it upon others.

 

[Timo]

(Would Betazed send a "he"? I don't think they have appeared big on gender equality so far...)

I rather doubt mass murder would be prominent in the occupation of Betazed. The Jem'Hadar back home were used to ruling through reputation; if they had to set an example, they didn't do anything as quick and merciful as wholesale slaughter. And I can't see a Federation world fighting tooth and nail after the outcome is already obvious, as those worlds also have a precedent of not being battlegrounds.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Counter-espionage agencies have agents in the command&control structures of their own countries.
Does this mean they are not answerable to their hierarchical superiors - and, up the chain of command, to their government?

If it's a matter of having undercover spies 'hiding' in their countries' highest levels of governments, sneakily reporting to their spy masters about what government officials are doing and making plans to eliminate said officials who become a problem (as Section 31 does regularly), then yes it does!

Real organizations which are known to the public, which conduct official business on behalf of their governments, and which must *answer* to said governments, do have representatives. The heads of the FBI, CIA, that type of thing. But that is another matter entirely. Those officials make reports to the country's leadership and are responsible to the President. Not at all the same thing as "Extreme Measures" showed.

Mr. Laser Beam, I'm not talking about representatives - which itself is a reasonable interpretation of Bashir's line.

Legitimate conter-espionage agencies have undercover agents in the command&control structures of their own countries, trained and tasked with discovering any spies.
Considering how often the Federation is infiltrated (as shown repeatedly in canon), such agents are, indeed, needed.

All this does not change the fact of these counter-espionage agencies' legitimacy - or S31's*.


About "making plans to eliminate said officials who become a problem (as Section 31 does regularly)" - .
Mr. Laser Beam, we're not in the 'trek literature' or 'fan fiction' subforum. Canon only, not constructs of your imagination beyond it.


*The fact that your best argument is an ambiguous and easily explainable line of Bashir's speaks volumes about the weakness of your argument.

 

[Timo]

We're indeed facing a problem of perspective here. S31 in DS9 is a rarely and fairly tastefully used plot element that leaves many a thing ambiguous. S31 in ENT is even less often used, and may well describe an entirely separate organization - indeed, the very name and supposed fundament of the organization must be different, because the DS9 bunch spoke of the Federation Charter while there was no Federation in ENT!

The novels add to the story, but typically enough, they exhibit little imagination and tend to reinforce certain interpretations of the scarce onscreen material that may not really have been part of that material originally... The TV shows have something of an obligation to get innovative and challenge existing "views" in each new episode, while the novels have a fondness for conservative continuity - largely because episode writers do not need to pay attention to "parallel" writing, merely to previous episodes, while novel writers tend to work in "parallel" and would diverge too much if not guarding each other's doings...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pavonis]

So, if Section 31 is a real organization, are we to believe that Dr. Bashir is their only reluctant asset? I know he turned down an offer to join them in their first appearance, but that didn't seem to stop Sloan from considering Bashir an asset from then on. How many other "operatives" were in the same situation? Perhaps most of the agents didn't consider themselves actual S31 operatives, which would make for great deniability, because the agents would hardly think of themselves as agents!

 

[Sci]

About "making plans to eliminate said officials who become a problem (as Section 31 does regularly)" - .
Mr. Laser Beam, we're not in the 'trek literature' or 'fan fiction' subforum. Canon only,

Why? Why should we only use the canon? It's not like it's any less fictional than the novels.

We're indeed facing a problem of perspective here. S31 in DS9 is a rarely and fairly tastefully used plot element that leaves many a thing ambiguous. S31 in ENT is even less often used, and may well describe an entirely separate organization - indeed, the very name and supposed fundament of the organization must be different, because the DS9 bunch spoke of the Federation Charter while there was no Federation in ENT!

Actually, Sloan claimed in "Inquisition" that Section 31 was part of the "original Starfleet Charter." Which is a weird thing to say, as it implies multiple Starfleet Charters -- or multiple Starfleets.

Then, ENT is created, and we discover that there was an earlier Starfleet -- the United Earth Starfleet, which preceded the Federation Starfleet. And in "Affliction/Divergence," Harris cites Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter in justifying his organization's existence -- even though Article 14, Section 31 only talks about bending the rules in times of extraordinary crisis, not about establishing a permanent organization that's above the law and accountable to no one. It's a flimsy legal excuse that would never stand up in a court.

ETA:

Mr. Laser Beam, I'm not talking about representatives - which itself is a reasonable interpretation of Bashir's line.

Legitimate conter-espionage agencies have undercover agents in the command&control structures of their own countries, trained and tasked with discovering any spies.<SNIP>

All this does not change the fact of these counter-espionage agencies' legitimacy - or S31's*.

Oh, doesn't it? There's a very real argument to be made that the national security systems of the United States -- from its intelligence agencies, to the Pentagon, to the government contractors to whom much of the job of protecting the country has been outsourced and privatized -- are no longer legitimate, because they have too much power and influence over the government and society. That they themselves constitute a threat to democracy.

I sure as hell don't want the Federation imitating America's undemocratic, abusive national security state.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

About "making plans to eliminate said officials who become a problem (as Section 31 does regularly)" - .
Mr. Laser Beam, we're not in the 'trek literature' or 'fan fiction' subforum. Canon only,

Why? Why should we only use the canon? It's not like it's any less fictional than the novels.

Because star trek movies/series are widely known - trek fan-fiction and trek lit, FAR LESS known.
Because star trek movies/series are recognised as canon by the holder of the copyrights - fan-fiction and trek lit, not.
Because this is NOT the trek literature subforum.
Because most posters on this forum are not at all familiar with trek lit and do NOT consider it canon; obviously, they do not share your devotion to trek lit.
Etc.

Mr. Laser Beam, I'm not talking about representatives - which itself is a reasonable interpretation of Bashir's line.

Legitimate conter-espionage agencies have undercover agents in the command&control structures of their own countries, trained and tasked with discovering any spies.
Considering how often the Federation is infiltrated (as shown repeatedly in canon), such agents are, indeed, needed.

All this does not change the fact of these counter-espionage agencies' legitimacy - or S31's*.

*The fact that your best argument is an ambiguous and easily explainable line of Bashir's speaks volumes about the weakness of your argument.

Oh, doesn't it? There's a very real argument to be made that the national security systems of the United States -- from its intelligence agencies, to the Pentagon, to the government contractors to whom much of the job of protecting the country has been outsourced and privatized -- are no longer legitimate, because they have too much power and influence over the government and society. That they themselves constitute a threat to democracy.

I sure as hell don't want the Federation imitating America's undemocratic, abusive national security state.

Fine, Sci.

S31 is as legitimate - or illegitimate - as USA's intelligence agencies and Pentagon.
This means that, as per the majoritary (by a large margin) opinion of your countrymen, S31 is fully legitimate.

 

[Sci]

About "making plans to eliminate said officials who become a problem (as Section 31 does regularly)" - .
Mr. Laser Beam, we're not in the 'trek literature' or 'fan fiction' subforum. Canon only,

Why? Why should we only use the canon? It's not like it's any less fictional than the novels.

Because star trek movies/series are widely known

So what? Popularity should not determine eligibility for discussion.

Because star trek movies/series are recognised as canon by the holder of the copyrights - fan-fiction and trek lit, not.

Yeah, but that's because in the context of Star Trek, "canon" just means "stuff the books have to stay consistent with." It's a corporate distinction that's only meaningful if you're writing Trek Lit.

Mr. Laser Beam, I'm not talking about representatives - which itself is a reasonable interpretation of Bashir's line.

Legitimate conter-espionage agencies have undercover agents in the command&control structures of their own countries, trained and tasked with discovering any spies.
Considering how often the Federation is infiltrated (as shown repeatedly in canon), such agents are, indeed, needed.

All this does not change the fact of these counter-espionage agencies' legitimacy - or S31's*.

*The fact that your best argument is an ambiguous and easily explainable line of Bashir's speaks volumes about the weakness of your argument.

Oh, doesn't it? There's a very real argument to be made that the national security systems of the United States -- from its intelligence agencies, to the Pentagon, to the government contractors to whom much of the job of protecting the country has been outsourced and privatized -- are no longer legitimate, because they have too much power and influence over the government and society. That they themselves constitute a threat to democracy.

I sure as hell don't want the Federation imitating America's undemocratic, abusive national security state.

Fine, Sci.

S31 is as legitimate - or illegitimate - as USA's intelligence agencies and Pentagon.
This means that, as per the majoritary (by a large margin) opinion of your countrymen, S31 is fully legitimate.

No, it means that most people are wrong.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Why? Why should we only use the canon? It's not like it's any less fictional than the novels.

Because star trek movies/series are widely known - trek fan-fiction and trek lit, FAR LESS known.
Because star trek movies/series are recognised as canon by the holder of the copyrights - fan-fiction and trek lit, not.
Because this is NOT the trek literature subforum.
Because most posters on this forum are not at all familiar with trek lit and do NOT consider it canon; obviously, they do not share your devotion to trek lit.
Etc.

So what? Popularity should not determine eligibility for discussion.



Yeah, but that's because in the context of Star Trek, "canon" just means "stuff the books have to stay consistent with." It's a corporate distinction that's only meaningful if you're writing Trek Lit.

I'm sure you are more than willing to demonstrate your devotion to trek lit by writing page after page of hair-splitting and rhetoric, Sci - but you see, it's not up to you.

On a forum such as this one, popularity among the posters - ALL posters, not only a minority - and what they consider canon (most often, what is officially considered canon) matters.

Oh, doesn't it? There's a very real argument to be made that the national security systems of the United States -- from its intelligence agencies, to the Pentagon, to the government contractors to whom much of the job of protecting the country has been outsourced and privatized -- are no longer legitimate, because they have too much power and influence over the government and society. That they themselves constitute a threat to democracy.

I sure as hell don't want the Federation imitating America's undemocratic, abusive national security state.

Fine, Sci.

S31 is as legitimate - or illegitimate - as USA's intelligence agencies and Pentagon.
This means that, as per the majoritary (by a large margin) opinion of your countrymen, S31 is fully legitimate.

No, it means that most people are wrong.

So - you're right and most people are wrong - in USA and on this forum.
And your opinion should matter and the majority's, not - in USA and on this forum.

For someone who claims to be such an admirer/protector of democracy and its principles, you have quite an anti-democratic mind-set, Sci.

 

[Pavonis]

I sure as hell don't want the Federation imitating America's undemocratic, abusive national security state.

Why not? Shouldn't the fictional Federation reflect the reality of our culture and politics, in order to spotlight potential problems?

 

[Yevetha]

I tough Trek was meant to be utopistic.

 

[T'Girl]

Shouldn't the fictional Federation reflect the reality of our culture and politics, in order to spotlight potential problems?

yes. it was the vietnam war that in large part led to the creation of the prime directive. gene roddenberry's belief that america should abandon the south vietnamese people to conquest. non-interference in the affairs of 'primitive' people.

the exact status of s31 is ambiguious, it can be read either way based upon the information given in canon. is it really possible that the federation would have a single giant intelligent agency with no sub-division labeled 'covert activties.' and buried in that a 'dirty tricks' branch.

how is poisoning the breakfast of one tyrant worse, than launching a war that could kill 'on a planetary scale.'

or just tens of thousands of dead conscripts by starfleet's hands.

perhaps -- upon the approach of the dominion war, the federation president called in his/her intelligence director and said 'give me some options.'

that director did, one was s31.

ouo



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