Prisons in Star Trek.

[The Castellan]

Everybody does. It's just a matter of hierarchy: the UFP supposedly has the final say on everything, and if you disagree with that, you are subjected to sanctions. Section 31 no doubt feels it has the final final say, but it's much more difficult to impose sanctions if you try to remain covert!

Timo Saloniemi

Considering Section 31 does not give a damn about law, due process, checks and balances, I am sure that when Section 31 does stuff that would incriminate them, they make the Federation "An offer they can't refuse". Remaining covert makes it much easier.

Akin to Torchwood "Above the police, above the government" line.

Does section 31 has its own laws on how to deal with criminals?

Yea, anything they want, it appears. And when someone protests, could see a section 31 agent responding to that protest with the butt of a phaser rifle either to across the temple or in the gut, if not both. They were arrogant enough to be like that, plus they are going to use the age old cry of theoretical security/protection of the Federation.

 

[Sci]

Akin to Torchwood "Above the police, above the government" line.

Yeah, but even Torchwood answered to the Queen. Section 31 answers to no one.

 

[Yevetha]

How do we know_

It has have a boss.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

How do we know_

It has have a boss.

The head of Section 31 may exercise control over that organization, but he or she does not answer to anyone else. Section 31's director can literally do whatever they want, and they can order the entirety of Section 31 to do anything.

If S31 were just a criminal organization, some responsibility would still go to the Federation for not exercizing control over what should have been a internal matter.

The Federation is not perfect. No government is, or ever could be. To say that a government is to blame, and has somehow failed, simply because crime exists within its borders, is to be very unrealistic.

And given how secretive Section 31 is, the general population and leadership of the Federation can hardly be faulted if they don't find out about it.

 

[Sci]

If S31 were just a criminal organization, some responsibility would still go to the Federation for not exercizing control over what should have been a internal matter.

The Federation is not perfect. No government is, or ever could be. To say that a government is to blame, and has somehow failed, simply because crime exists within its borders, is to be very unrealistic.

And given how secretive Section 31 is, the general population and leadership of the Federation can hardly be faulted if they don't find out about it.

I think the Federation government can be faulted for not knowing about and/or not being able to stop Section 31's crimes, but that's not the same thing as saying the Federation government is responsible for Section 31's crimes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'm afraid I must disagree with the first point (agree with the second though). As we've all seen, Section 31 is secretive to the extreme. Possibly up to and including wild paranoia. I seem to remember an implication that only a few of its agents communicate with each other at a time, so that if any one agent is captured, they can't give up the whole organization. The only time anyone ever finds out about them is if they're a possible recruit, like Bashir. (I know there is a TOS S31 novel, I haven't read it so I don't know how that went down.) The end results of Section 31's operations may be known, but part of S31's method involves mercilessly covering their own tracks and thinking up alternative explanations for everything they do.

So even if Bashir blabbed to the entire DS9 command staff about S31's existence, I don't see what they possibly could have done about it. Sisko told Bashir to gain their trust and try to disrupt them from within - that's about all that could be done. Bashir's got to be one of the only recruits to ever turn down S31 and live to tell about it...

That being said, I would dearly love to see a Novelverse storyline involving...

Spoiler: novels

the fall of Section 31, which we know will eventually happen, as per The Good That Men Do.

 

[The Castellan]

^ I'm afraid I must disagree with the first point (agree with the second though). As we've all seen, Section 31 is secretive to the extreme. Possibly up to and including wild paranoia. I seem to remember an implication that only a few of its agents communicate with each other at a time, so that if any one agent is captured, they can't give up the whole organization. The only time anyone ever finds out about them is if they're a possible recruit, like Bashir. (I know there is a TOS S31 novel, I haven't read it so I don't know how that went down.) The end results of Section 31's operations may be known, but part of S31's method involves mercilessly covering their own tracks and thinking up alternative explanations for everything they do.

So even if Bashir blabbed to the entire DS9 command staff about S31's existence, I don't see what they possibly could have done about it. Sisko told Bashir to gain their trust and try to disrupt them from within - that's about all that could be done. Bashir's got to be one of the only recruits to ever turn down S31 and live to tell about it...

That being said, I would dearly love to see a Novelverse storyline involving...

Spoiler: novels

the fall of Section 31, which we know will eventually happen, as per The Good That Men Do.

I'll be more happy to see it on screen getting what they deserve.


And the Federation and Starfleet is at fault for not denying section 31's existence and doing nothing to get rid of it.

 

[Timo]

...Although once again it has to be pointed out that the existence of S31 is in serious doubt.

We have only seen one agent who claims to represent this organization. Said agent had some transporter abduction resources, authentic data on questionable things Starfleet Medical did on Odo during "Homefront", as well as weird ideas on how the government of Romulus ought to be manipulated to ensure UFP security. And that's all the data we really have.

From it, we can deduce S31 is a front for the UFP military or intelligence community; the workings of a lone madman; or a combination of both, with Sloane a rogue agent at odds with SF Intel or then a patriotic one pretending to be a rogue one. This way or that, Sloane is in on the plan to kill all the Founders via means provided by Starfleet Medical; shifting blame solely on the shoulders of a single person should not satisfy any court, much less satisfy outside observers following the aftermath of the Dominion War.

That said, history doesn't recognize a single case of the victor prosecuting itself on war crimes, now does it? Any such trial involves shifting blame away from the victor and towards individuals deemed unrepresentative rather than representative of their organization.

Which is right and well, because the purpose of the concept of war crimes is to discourage individual actions, not to discourage policies. It is on the individual level that the rules of war matter, so that two warring sides can pretend to mutually maintain a chosen level of civility; on policy level, warring sides should be free to choose that level according to their political aims.

It is simply not reasonable to say that there's any value system were genocide and imperialism look the same as defending civil rights and liberties.

It's still only a matter of perspective. Organizations like this will not be remembered for what they wanted to represent, but for what they did represent in practice. If varying parties advocate freedom deprivation as punishment and/or deterrent, they will get bunched up for that in a 23rd century argument about the virtues and vices of freedom deprivation. I find it unlikely to the extreme that Kirk would even have heard of the Civil Liberties Union, but he would still be somewhat versed on what life in the 20th century was like, and apparently largely appalled by it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

...Although once again it has to be pointed out that the existence of S31 is in serious doubt.

We have only seen one agent who claims to represent this organization. Said agent had some transporter abduction resources, authentic data on questionable things Starfleet Medical did on Odo during "Homefront", as well as weird ideas on how the government of Romulus ought to be manipulated to ensure UFP security. And that's all the data we really have.

Wrong yet again. Bashir and O'Brien literally went inside Sloan's mind in "Extreme Measures;" they saw what he knew, and they saw that Section 31 is an actual organization with operations beyond just Sloan, and they were the ones who created and infected Odo with the virus. Not Starfleet Medical, and not the Federation government.

It is simply not reasonable to say that there's any value system were genocide and imperialism look the same as defending civil rights and liberties.

It's still only a matter of perspective.

No, it's not. Even if a hypothetical 23rd Century Federate thinks the ACLU's ideas of freedom and personal rights were not expansive enough -- and I can see, for instance, a 23rd Century Federate being upset to see that, say, the ACLU of the 1920s didn't fight for same-sex marriage, a right a Federate would probably take for granted -- there is still an objective difference between an organization that wants to restrict individual power and kill people and an organization that wants to expand individual power and protect people.

 

[Pavonis]

Wrong yet again. Bashir and O'Brien literally went inside Sloan's mind in "Extreme Measures;" they saw what he knew, and they saw that Section 31 is an actual organization with operations beyond just Sloan, and they were the ones who created and infected Odo with the virus. Not Starfleet Medical, and not the Federation government.

Even going into Sloan's mind doesn't prove the existence of an entire organization called Section 31. It just proves that Sloan thought there was an entire organization called Section 31.

 

[T'Girl]

It just proves that Sloan thought there was an entire organization called Section 31.

Sloan also thought he was a hero for the Federation. there was mention of a S31 agent in the Federation President's inner circle, how would Sloan, a field agent, know this. Does that sound like something you would tell to everyone in your organization?

Sloan "knew " this, because someone in S31 told it to him. It made Sloan feel as if he were part of something big and important, what difference did it make if it were true or not.

If S31 actually were part of the Federation's intelligence community, telling Sloan it wasn't might have been part of his indoctrination and training.

Think Jason Bourne.

 

[Pavonis]

I wonder if the producers intended Section 31 to be a real organization akin to the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order. Did they envision it as the Federation's answer to those other organizations, or did they intend for Sloan to be a lone rogue agent the entire time?

As an aside, do the Klingons have a secret police-type organization, too?

If so, the producers failed in a way to clarify their intent. Given the very little evidence presented, I'm starting to think Sloan was either delusional or a tool of Starfleet Intelligence to provide them with deniability in their operations. I like your Bourne comparison, T'Girl.

 

[Timo]

Sloane was more in control of the dream realm than either of his two assailants were. There's no reason to think that all (or indeed any) of the contents of the dream were real or truthful.

there is still an objective difference between an organization that wants to restrict individual power and kill people and an organization that wants to expand individual power and protect people.

But a meaningless one, if both organizations aim at torturing people through freedom deprivation. "They had good intentions" is the best an organization like that might get from a future party opposed to the idea of freedom deprivation. Spoken with the same tones as "they made the trains run in time" is spoken today; an incidental and irrelevant side aspect of the organization in question (even if the organization itself felt this was their main purpose) warrants only contempt.

The point is, nobody is going to be objective about "rights". Not today, not tomorrow.

As an aside, do the Klingons have a secret police-type organization, too?

They have an intelligence arm, at any rate. "Imperial Intelligence" was mentioned in DS9 "Visionary", its agents demonstrating tactical and technical skill while masquerading as drunken idiots. While the mention of this organization was a nod to older novels where Imperial Intelligence was a draconian secret police terrorizing the citizens of the Empire, the episode itself makes the II people seem no more sinister than, say, James Bond.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I wonder if the producers intended Section 31 to be a real organization akin to the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order. Did they envision it as the Federation's answer to those other organizations, or did they intend for Sloan to be a lone rogue agent the entire time?

As an aside, do the Klingons have a secret police-type organization, too?

There is a difference. The Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were indeed secret police. They enforced laws within the borders of their empires. Neither Section 31 nor Klingon Imperial Intelligence qualified as this - those organizations did not exist to punish traitors nor enforce the will of the state, but only to defend that state against what they perceived to be threats. And Klingon I.I. at least is a recognized branch of government with, presumably, accountability and oversight; Section 31 never had that.

 

[T'Girl]

... Section 31 never had that.

The ultimate in covert operations, agents who (officially) don't exist, who the majority of the populace doesn't know about.

 

[Phily B]

Didn't Edington talk about going to prison?

I swear there was other mentions of it in DS9 too, about Federation penal colonies not being that bad.

 

[Sci]

Wrong yet again. Bashir and O'Brien literally went inside Sloan's mind in "Extreme Measures;" they saw what he knew, and they saw that Section 31 is an actual organization with operations beyond just Sloan, and they were the ones who created and infected Odo with the virus. Not Starfleet Medical, and not the Federation government.

Even going into Sloan's mind doesn't prove the existence of an entire organization called Section 31. It just proves that Sloan thought there was an entire organization called Section 31.

The amount of data Sloan had was far too much for him to have just been tricked into thinking Section 31 exists. This, combined with the existence of Section 31 in the 22nd Century, makes it so highly improbable that Section 31 does not exist as to make the possibility meaningless.

It just proves that Sloan thought there was an entire organization called Section 31.

Sloan also thought he was a hero for the Federation. there was mention of a S31 agent in the Federation President's inner circle, how would Sloan, a field agent, know this.

Because Sloan isn't primarily a field agent, most likely. He makes it fairly clear in "Extreme Measures" that he's a more senior member of the organization than just that.

If S31 actually were part of the Federation's intelligence community, telling Sloan it wasn't might have been part of his indoctrination and training.

If Section 31 were actually part of the Federation intelligence community, it would, y'know, be public knowledge. It's not like anyone's unaware of the existence of the Central Intelligence Agency or National Security Agency or Defense Intelligence Agency.

I wonder if the producers intended Section 31 to be a real organization akin to the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order. Did they envision it as the Federation's answer to those other organizations, or did they intend for Sloan to be a lone rogue agent the entire time?

Ira Steven Behr's interviews in The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion make it very clear that Section 31 is a real organization, and Sloan is not just a lone rogue. Further, as Bashir noted, the amount of expertise required to create the Founder virus means that it can't have just been one guy behind it.

Though, as others already noted, it's important to bear in mind that there's a distinction between a genuine secret police organization (such as the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order) and a criminal conspiracy that just does whatever it likes. Section 31 is more akin to, say, the so-called "Deep State" that's alleged to exist in Turkey.

Sloane was more in control of the dream realm than either of his two assailants were. There's no reason to think that all (or indeed any) of the contents of the dream were real or truthful.

If that were true, he would have been able to prevent them from gaining access to the correct cure for the Founder virus. He had no control over Bashir obtaining accurate information from him.

there is still an objective difference between an organization that wants to restrict individual power and kill people and an organization that wants to expand individual power and protect people.

But a meaningless one, if both organizations aim at torturing people through freedom deprivation.

... which they do not, because one wants to expand individual power and protect people. Which means not torturing them through freedom deprivation. The idea that anyone in the future will see the ACLU and Nazi Party is just absurd on every level.

As an aside, do the Klingons have a secret police-type organization, too?

They have an intelligence arm, at any rate. "Imperial Intelligence" was mentioned in DS9 "Visionary", its agents demonstrating tactical and technical skill while masquerading as drunken idiots. While the mention of this organization was a nod to older novels where Imperial Intelligence was a draconian secret police terrorizing the citizens of the Empire, the episode itself makes the II people seem no more sinister than, say, James Bond.

Timo Saloniemi

Recent novels have also depicted Imperial Intelligence as having a certain amount of power and influence, and a rivalry with the Defense Force, but it doesn't seem to function as an all-out secret police force, no.

... Section 31 never had that.

The ultimate in covert operations, agents who (officially) don't exist, who the majority of the populace doesn't know about.

I assume by "covert operations," you mean, "death squads," right?

 

[Yevetha]

I wonder if the producers intended Section 31 to be a real organization akin to the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order. Did they envision it as the Federation's answer to those other organizations, or did they intend for Sloan to be a lone rogue agent the entire time?

As an aside, do the Klingons have a secret police-type organization, too?

There is a difference. The Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were indeed secret police. They enforced laws within the borders of their empires. Neither Section 31 nor Klingon Imperial Intelligence qualified as this - those organizations did not exist to punish traitors nor enforce the will of the state, but only to defend that state against what they perceived to be threats. And Klingon I.I. at least is a recognized branch of government with, presumably, accountability and oversight; Section 31 never had that.

They also show up in the Gorkon books.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I would actually like to see more of Imperial Intelligence. Do they get a *big* role in the Gorkon novels?

 

[Yevetha]

I dont remember, maybe someone else can tell.