Preachiest Trek Episode

[MeanJoePhaser]

That one DS9 episode "To the Choir" where Sisko thinks he's a 20th century minister.

Or TOS' "Let This Be Your Last Lecture" where Kirk says "we don't have to kill, rape, steal, hate, today!"

Or maybe Voyager's "A Fish Called Compassion" where Janeway validates putting everyone in harms way to save a flesh-eating microbe from extinction.

TNG's "The Righteous O'Rourke" where special guest star Charles Nelson Reilly criticizes the crew for not being culturally evolved enough.

Or possibly ENT's "Testament" where Archer tells us how noble the gazelle is, how infinite its wisdom, how noble its faculty...

 

[Ryan8bit]

This is the key part leading up to Picard's sermonizing, and only underlines my point:

BARRON
Like it or not, we've rekindled
the Mintakans' belief in the
Overseer.

RIKER
(to Barron)
And you're saying that belief will
eventually develop into a
religion.

From there Picard goes on to bash religion. It's pretty cut and dry.

You're still taking it out of context. Also, apparently they never had a religion in the first place, so him causing them to create one is a terrible idea.

Yet, I also view this as preaching that to be advanced one must abandon their faith/religious beliefs.

Perhaps it doesn't seem preachy to those who agree with Picard's diatribe.

That's because you too are taking it out of context. Nowhere does Picard say that all faith and religion is bad, but that worshiping a false god-figure is, and that it should not be the tenet of a religion. When he refers to superstition and the dark ages, he refers to possible conflict that would come about because of his actions.

What Picard SHOULD have said would be something to the effect of, "It would be morally reprehensible to allow a people to shape their most crucial beliefs and values as a result of our interference."

He did say that. Read the whole passage.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Also, apparently they never had a religion in the first place

Barron did say that they had rekindled belief in the Overseer. So the Mintakans must have had it at some point in the past. You can't "rekindle" something that never existed.

I also see the anti-religion bias in this episode, but it doesn't bother me. It doesn't destroy my faith or make me doubt it. Besides, this is Trek TV after all... I've come to expect things like this. Gene was still alive when this episode was made, wasn't he? And we all know how he felt about this topic. So it's par for the course, really. (Conversely, JMS - another atheist - was actually fair in his treatment of religion. Go watch B5's "Parliament of Dreams" if you don't believe me. I'm hardly a B5 fan, but I did enjoy that bit.)

Also, Picard can be arrogant and preachy about other things too, not just religion. Money, for example. Listen to the smartass tone in his voice when he attempts to explain why/how they don't use money in the 24th century (ST:FC, for example).

 

[Mistral]

The one where Shatner preaches the Preamble to the (US) Constitution to the "Yangs" and "Cooms" has them all beat by a country mile.

Omega Glory

 

[cultcross]

It sort of makes sense in that Picard is a scientist, he would feel that way about religion more since his life is more based around facts and the like.

Erm, I'm a scientist. What does a science background have to do with being overbearing and preachy when it comes to religious themed episodes?

 

[Ryan8bit]

Also, apparently they never had a religion in the first place

Barron did say that they had rekindled belief in the Overseer. So the Mintakans must have had it at some point in the past. You can't "rekindle" something that never existed.

Belief and organized religion are two different things.

 

[Captain X]

The intimation there is very clear that religion is being dicussed, and they're only stopping just short of coming right out and saying it. You can keep trying to wax over it, but the fact remains Picard is still bashing religion. As someone else mentioned though, if you agree with what he's saying, it's doubtful you'd see it as preachy.

 

[DWF]

Also, Picard can be arrogant and preachy about other things too, not just religion. Money, for example. Listen to the smartass tone in his voice when he attempts to explain why/how they don't use money in the 24th century (ST:FC, for example).

He didn't sound like a "smartass" to me but Kirk did use that wiggle out of helping to pay for beer and pizza in Star Trek IV.

 

[Sector 7]

It sort of makes sense in that Picard is a scientist, he would feel that way about religion more since his life is more based around facts and the like.

And that, of course, is a common misconception: that respect for physical science and for spiritual belief are somehow mutually exclusive. I, for one, have no need to deny or alter scientific theories in order to be comfortable in my faith.

I very much agree. I have a science background as well as military (I know, I'm a renaissance man). They do not have to be mutually exclusive to my faith.

The intimation there is very clear that religion is being dicussed, and they're only stopping just short of coming right out and saying it. You can keep trying to wax over it, but the fact remains Picard is still bashing religion. As someone else mentioned though, if you agree with what he's saying, it's doubtful you'd see it as preachy.

Me... Meeee.... I said that!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

This is the key part leading up to Picard's sermonizing, and only underlines my point:

BARRON
Like it or not, we've rekindled
the Mintakans' belief in the
Overseer.

RIKER
(to Barron)
And you're saying that belief will
eventually develop into a
religion.

From there Picard goes on to bash religion. It's pretty cut and dry.

You're still taking it out of context. Also, apparently they never had a religion in the first place, so him causing them to create one is a terrible idea.

Yet, I also view this as preaching that to be advanced one must abandon their faith/religious beliefs.

Perhaps it doesn't seem preachy to those who agree with Picard's diatribe.

That's because you too are taking it out of context. Nowhere does Picard say that all faith and religion is bad, but that worshiping a false god-figure is, and that it should not be the tenet of a religion. When he refers to superstition and the dark ages, he refers to possible conflict that would come about because of his actions.

What Picard SHOULD have said would be something to the effect of, "It would be morally reprehensible to allow a people to shape their most crucial beliefs and values as a result of our interference."

He did say that. Read the whole passage.

I DID read the whole passage. The problem is that when it's mentioned that the Mintakans' belief in an overseer had been rekindled, look at how he explains their losing that belief in the past: he calls that earlier loss of belief an achievement and says that to rekindle that belief is to destroy an achievement, not just to drastically alter a culture. He should've focused on the Prime Directive violation, not on his anti-religion bias.

 

[alicelouise]

Star Trek Voyager was preachy PC.

 

[Ryan8bit]

if you agree with what he's saying, it's doubtful you'd see it as preachy.

Like I said before, I used to be religious, yet I never disagreed with what he said, considering the context.

I DID read the whole passage. The problem is that when it's mentioned that the Mintakans' belief in an overseer had been rekindled, look at how he explains their losing that belief in the past: he calls that earlier loss of belief an achievement and says that to rekindle that belief is to destroy an achievement, not just to drastically alter a culture. He should've focused on the Prime Directive violation, not on his anti-religion bias.

Without knowing too much about the overseer, perhaps it was an achievement. Most of our culture sees not worshiping the ancient Greek gods as a good thing, too. Perhaps this overseer stood in the way of progress for their society, and their more rational beliefs were causing them to be more enlightened. It's possible that their earlier beliefs and science were mutually exclusive, and at that point it is problematic.

Having the Mintakans believe that Picard was their god most definitely would destroy, hamper, or nullify a lot of the achievements they have made towards being rational people.

 

[Captain X]

Right, because you can't be religious and rational at the same time...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Right, because you can't be religious and rational at the same time...

Hey, I can be religious and listen to Rush at the same time. I'd say that counts for something.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Right, because you can't be religious and rational at the same time...

You're just trying to use loaded words and a straw man to make a point, and it's failing. I never said that religion and rationality are mutually exclusive. Religion based on something that is clearly made up (like Picard being a god) is definitely irrational. I suppose you think scientologists are rational people too?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Right, because you can't be religious and rational at the same time...

You're just trying to use loaded words and a straw man to make a point, and it's failing. I never said that religion and rationality are mutually exclusive. Religion based on something that is clearly made up (like Picard being a god) is definitely irrational. I suppose you think scientologists are rational people too?

I suppose the point is that WWTW took insufficient care in making that distinction clear. If we are still having this discussion over whether it slammed all religion (as I still believe it does) or not, then it should have been MORE clear that it was only talking about Picard's false-god thing.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Exactly. That is what I have stated multiple times: that Picard should NOT have framed it in terms of their having "achieved" atheism and setting back that "achievement"--but instead focused on the fact that their inadvertent meddling set Mintakan society on a course it would not have taken otherwise.

 

[kissthestar]

What do you suppose they did with that chapel on the TOS Enterprise? I mean, beyond marryin' and buryin'?

 

[TheRealNaveed]

I feel this is relevant since this reflects my view on the way religion is generally treated in Star Trek. An excerpt from Enterpriez:

"O god oh god?" Asked Phlegm, "I thought you humans didn't have religion anymore, that you evolved beyond it."
"No," replied Hawke, "That's just something we tell everyone else so we can feel smug and superior."

I think I remember this, though, it's a bit inconsistent with the Trek world we've seen. We've seen Chapels, we've seen respect for religion in Deep Space Nine, and Phlox in Enterprise has said he attended Mass on Earth, I think at the Vatican but I'm not sure.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I feel this is relevant since this reflects my view on the way religion is generally treated in Star Trek. An excerpt from Enterpriez:

"O god oh god?" Asked Phlegm, "I thought you humans didn't have religion anymore, that you evolved beyond it."
"No," replied Hawke, "That's just something we tell everyone else so we can feel smug and superior."

I think I remember this, though, it's a bit inconsistent with the Trek world we've seen. We've seen Chapels, we've seen respect for religion in Deep Space Nine, and Phlox in Enterprise has said he attended Mass on Earth, I think at the Vatican but I'm not sure.

In the case of Phlox...I would suspect that perhaps the situation hadn't quite deteriorated as far in the 22nd century as it had by the 23rd century and even more so in the 24th.