Preachiest Trek Episode

[cultcross]

First, I don't see anything preachy here.

You don't see anything preachy in "sabotage that achievement... send them back into the Dark Ages of fear and superstition."??
The message of the speech and the episode is pretty darn clear. "Belief in the supernatural is backward and primitive. The correct, advanced way is atheism."

 

[Supervisor 194]

Another vote for "Warp drive is killing teh environment!"

 

[Ryan8bit]

You don't see anything preachy in "sabotage that achievement... send them back into the Dark Ages of fear and superstition."??

No, but that's probably because I am not religious. Does anyone else here who is not religious think it sounds preachy?

When I first saw this episode, I very much was religious. I had considered that they meant things in a context like how we now treat the Greek Gods, and that's true. With the rest of the episode as a backdrop, it didn't really fly in the face of what I believed. If they had said something like "Jesus was a time traveler" or that "all religion is abolished" then I probably would've reacted poorly to that.

The message of the speech and the episode is pretty darn clear. "Belief in the supernatural is backward and primitive. The correct, advanced way is atheism."

A lot of Star Trek strays from the supernatural, and rightfully so. However, not believing in the supernatural doesn't automatically equate to atheism.

The supernatural is such a strange thing anyways. Some don't believe anything supernatural happens these days and that it only happened in the past (a time of poor record keeping). Some believe it happens all the time (without any tangible proof). And some believe it doesn't happen at all. I probably fit in that last category with the exception that I wish supernatural things were true... they sound so awesome and sometimes comforting. But I just can't because it's not really rational.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Still doesn't change the fact that Picard was arrogant and preachy. And seeing as it's been around for thousands of years, I highly doubt religion will suddenly disappear in the next few hundred. It may evolve, but it won't disappear.

If we encountered a culture that beleived in witchcraft (there are several today) we would be pretty preachy to them.
Because something has always been around does not gaurentee it always will be, theres been a lot more learned about the nature of the universe we live in that has debunked many tenets of religious beleifs.

 

[Captain X]

"Your own reports describe how
rational these people are.
Millennia ago, they abandoned all
belief in the supernatural. And
now you're asking me to sabotage
that achievement... send them
back into the Dark Ages of fear
and superstition.

No. We must undo the damage we've
caused."

The bolded part is the preachy part. I know it seems to escape you because you're not religious yourself, but I suppose most evengelists don't consider themselves to be preachy for sharing "the truth". I hate to break it to you, but it's preachy to force your beliefs on others. It's true that the episode tries to hide what it's doing by having these aliens mistake Picard for a god, but it does a pretty bad job of it, as Star Trek tends to do.

The implication here is that it was a great achievement for these people to give up all religious belief, which Picard refers to as "supernatural". There's also nothing in his dialog that suggests it's just about the aliens worshiping him. So for him to suggest that religion equates to the Dark Ages and atheism equates to a great advancement would definitely qualify as preachy.

I'm agnostic by the way, so my view is hardly tarnished by being a bible-thumping Christian or something. I really don't like to see evangelism from anyone.

 

[diankra]

Dealing drugs makes you blond and sort of disco-looking. Being addicted to them for generations make you look proletarian and scruffy.

Just ask Tasha:

TASHA: Wesley, no one wants to become dependent. That happens later.
WESLEY: But it does happen. So why do people start?
TASHA: On my home planet, there was so much poverty and violence, that for some the only escape was through drugs.
WESLEY: How can a chemical substance can provide an escape.
TASHA: It doesn't, but it makes you think it does. You have to understand, drugs can make you feel good. They make you feel on top of the world. You're happy, sure of yourself, in control.
WESLEY: But it's artificial.
TASHA: It doesn't feel artificial until the drug wears off. Then you pay the price. Before you know it, you're taking the drug not to feel good, but to keep from feeling bad.
WESLEY: And that's the trap?

No, the trap is that you thought you were getting a story, instead of a tract.

Feh.

I'll add my vote for TNG: Symbiosis, which is probably the most 'Could only have been made that year' episode of the entire franchise, what with Tasha suddenly channelling Nancy Reagan's Just Say No campaign.
Honourable mention though to TNG: Force of Nature. But as with some of the other suggestions, that's just a case of a weak episode which fails to be an analogy because it's so bloody obvious what it's actually about.
Omega Glory doesn't count as preachy. That's just a cheap bit of tub-thumping patriotism written by someone who's temporarily forgotten that his series might be seen outside America (by people who value ideals like freedom nevertheless). And compared with the 2000-ish series Seven Days, it's almost good.
But.... including the books: the most appallingingly preachy bit of Trek is Picard's speech in defence of fiction in the TNG book Gulliver's Fugitives. I can't give a page number, but I do recall it was the last page I read before it became the only Trek book ever to go in the bin.

 

[Kirkman1987]

"Your own reports describe how
rational these people are.
Millennia ago, they abandoned all
belief in the supernatural. And
now you're asking me to sabotage
that achievement... send them
back into the Dark Ages of fear
and superstition.

No. We must undo the damage we've
caused."

The bolded part is the preachy part. I know it seems to escape you because you're not religious yourself, but I suppose most evengelists don't consider themselves to be preachy for sharing "the truth". I hate to break it to you, but it's preachy to force your beliefs on others. It's true that the episode tries to hide what it's doing by having these aliens mistake Picard for a god, but it does a pretty bad job of it, as Star Trek tends to do.

The implication here is that it was a great achievement for these people to give up all religious belief, which Picard refers to as "supernatural". There's also nothing in his dialog that suggests it's just about the aliens worshiping him. So for him to suggest that religion equates to the Dark Ages and atheism equates to a great advancement would definitely qualify as preachy.

This is spot on the nose, and I'm an atheist. I personally agree with Picard's views, but the episode was blatently anti-religious, and thus will seem preachy and/or offensive to someone with religious beliefs.

How anyone cannot see the anti-religious bent in this episode is beyond me. They even portray the crazy murderer fundamentalist stereotype at the end when that dude wants to kill picard to prove his belief.

If anything, I thank you all for forcing me to go to memory alpha, I never realized that Ray Wise guest stared in this episode. I saw him recently in an A-team episode as well.

 

[stj]

Having a point of view you don't like isn't preachy. Nor is a TV show that has didactic intent necessarily preachy. Since supposedly neutral shows merely carry safe messages, the insistence that a handful of nonconformist messages somehow impose on the viewer is merely a political position disguised as esthetic criticism. The resentment expressed towards Who Watches the Watchers should also be expressed toward In the Hands of the Prophets. Sisko's witless dialogue with his son about religion is by the alleged standard just as preachy.

If "preachy" is to mean anything other than too liberal---which is what most posters really mean?---something like a real sermon should be injected---extended monologue, a stop in the action, orgies of sentiment at the utterance of the sacred words, histrionic poses. A bizarre twisting of plot logic and/or insane premises are symptomatic in a fictional story as well I think. By these rather more sensible standards, Omega Glory is in the lead.

 

[cultcross]

If "preachy" is to mean anything other than too liberal---which is what most posters really mean?---something like a real sermon should be injected---extended monologue, a stop in the action, orgies of sentiment at the utterance of the sacred words, histrionic poses. A bizarre twisting of plot logic and/or insane premises are symptomatic in a fictional story as well I think. By these rather more sensible standards, Omega Glory is in the lead.

I think Who Watches the Watchers is preachy not just because of its anti-religion message - I can stomach such a message in fiction, whether or not I agree. It is preachy because of the grandstanding sledgehammer way this message is delivered, complete with sermon speeches from Picard, and a token religion fundamentalist trying to kill to prove a religious belief he's held all of one day. Plot logic disappears to drive home the point "religion makes you stupid".

 

[Ryan8bit]

The bolded part is the preachy part. I know it seems to escape you because you're not religious yourself, but I suppose most evengelists don't consider themselves to be preachy for sharing "the truth".

Like I said, I was religious when I first saw this, and was not offended at all. Nor did I feel like anyone's beliefs were being pushed on me.

I hate to break it to you, but it's preachy to force your beliefs on others. It's true that the episode tries to hide what it's doing by having these aliens mistake Picard for a god, but it does a pretty bad job of it, as Star Trek tends to do.

True that it does, but I never felt a belief was being forced on anyone. I didn't even really see any beliefs expressed except that superstition and fear are bad things, which I'd have to agree with. Barron speaks of all the reasons why Picard should act as their God, so as to prevent things like holy wars and religious squabbling, which was almost guaranteed to happen with any religion.

Religion is such an iffy topic for Star Trek. Especially so when you consider the question of aliens affecting primitive cultures naturally arises. Some people think that our cultures were affected by aliens! I think it was a decent story showing some interesting possibilities for a civilization.

The implication here is that it was a great achievement for these people to give up all religious belief, which Picard refers to as "supernatural". There's also nothing in his dialog that suggests it's just about the aliens worshiping him.

That's only because you're reading just a snippet that I picked (because it seemed like the one people thought was preachy). Here's a larger excerpt:

BARRON
(nods)
They are not normally a violent
people... but these are
extraordinary circumstances.
They're trying to comprehend what
they believe to be a god.

STAR TREK: "Who Watches... " REV. 8/14/89 - ACT THREE 35.

69 CONTINUED: (2)

PICARD
Recommendations?

BARRON
The Mintakans wish to please the
Overseer, but they can only guess
what he wants. They need a sign.

PICARD
Are you suggesting...

BARRON
(nods)
You must go down to Mintaka Three.

RIKER
Masquerading as a god?

PICARD
Out of the question. The Prime
Directive --

BARRON
Has already been violated. The
damage is done; all we can do now
is minimize it.

PICARD
By sanctioning their false
beliefs?

BARRON
By giving them guidelines...
letting them know what the
Overseer expects of them.

PICARD
I cannot -- I will not impose a
set of commandments on these
people. To do so violates the
essence of the Prime Directive.

BARRON
Like it or not, we've rekindled
the Mintakans' belief in the
Overseer.

RIKER
(to Barron)
And you're saying that belief will
eventually develop into a
religion.

STAR TREK: "Who Watches... " REV. 8/14/89 - ACT THREE 35A.

69 CONTINUED: (3)

BARRON
It's inevitable. And without
guidance, that religion could
degenerate into inquisitions...
holy wars... chaos.

STAR TREK: "Who Watches... " REV. 8/14/89 - ACT THREE 36.

69 CONTINUED: (4)

PICARD
Your own reports describe how
rational these people are.
Millennia ago, they abandoned all
belief in the supernatural. And
now you're asking me to sabotage
that achievement... send them
back into the Dark Ages of fear
and superstition.
(adamant)
No. We must undo the damage we've
caused.
Superstition definitely applies here because they're talking about Picard as a god figure. It doesn't get any more irrational than that. He wouldn't have been sending them into a more enlightened age by any means, so he was totally right. It wasn't a belief at that point, it was fact.

How anyone cannot see the anti-religious bent in this episode is beyond me. They even portray the crazy murderer fundamentalist stereotype at the end when that dude wants to kill picard to prove his belief.

Perhaps it's anti-false-god-figure, but that's not really the same thing. Also, not everyone was like Liko. But he was the proof that the idea of a false god would have dire consequences on their society.

 

[I am not Spock]

I actually quite liked the 'Who Watches The Watchers?" episode of TNG. I can see why many people were offended by its apparent anti-religion message, but I thought the story of the ep was interesting. As a Prime Directive story, the episode worked well.

 

[stj]

I think Who Watches the Watchers is preachy not just because of its anti-religion message - I can stomach such a message in fiction, whether or not I agree. It is preachy because of the grandstanding sledgehammer way this message is delivered, complete with sermon speeches from Picard, and a token religion fundamentalist trying to kill to prove a religious belief he's held all of one day. Plot logic disappears to drive home the point "religion makes you stupid".

And In the Hands of the Prophets has token noble religious leader risking himself to protect the infidel school, when in real life all they do is call atheists intolerant and act snobby about TV preachers (who have more followers and money than they do.) Religious bigotry is strictly a self serving ploy by evil misleaders, and disappears the moment Louise Fletcher is defeated in her nefarious schemes. Plot logic disappears. And of course Sisko sermonizes. The only difference is that the DS9 episode is cowardly and conformist.

 

[David cgc]

Star Trek: Enterprise, Season 3.

Thought it was entertaining for reversing what it was preaching halfway through. First it was "Let's go kick Taliban ass!" and then it switched to "George Bush's manufactured war is bad!"

 

[Captain X]

This is the key part leading up to Picard's sermonizing, and only underlines my point:

BARRON
Like it or not, we've rekindled
the Mintakans' belief in the
Overseer.

RIKER
(to Barron)
And you're saying that belief will
eventually develop into a
religion.

From there Picard goes on to bash religion. It's pretty cut and dry.

 

[Sector 7]

"Your own reports describe how
rational these people are.
Millennia ago, they abandoned all
belief in the supernatural. And
now you're asking me to sabotage
that achievement... send them
back into the Dark Ages of fear
and superstition.

No. We must undo the damage we've
caused."

The bolded part is the preachy part. I know it seems to escape you because you're not religious yourself, but I suppose most evengelists don't consider themselves to be preachy for sharing "the truth". I hate to break it to you, but it's preachy to force your beliefs on others. It's true that the episode tries to hide what it's doing by having these aliens mistake Picard for a god, but it does a pretty bad job of it, as Star Trek tends to do.

The implication here is that it was a great achievement for these people to give up all religious belief, which Picard refers to as "supernatural". There's also nothing in his dialog that suggests it's just about the aliens worshiping him. So for him to suggest that religion equates to the Dark Ages and atheism equates to a great advancement would definitely qualify as preachy.

I'm agnostic by the way, so my view is hardly tarnished by being a bible-thumping Christian or something. I really don't like to see evangelism from anyone.

Agreed. I am a person of faith more than orthodox religion. I have always believed "actions speak louder than words" so I try to live my faith. Yet, I also view this as preaching that to be advanced one must abandon their faith/religious beliefs.

Perhaps it doesn't seem preachy to those who agree with Picard's diatribe.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Who Watches the Watchers, [TNG]

YES. EXACTLY. I wanted to smack Picard for the whole "we've grown beyond religion" lecture. What arrogance.

Thank you!
I detest that episode for that very reason. Picard and their "superior Federation morals" are quite reprehensible in that episode. In fact, I consider Who Watches the Watchers and other scenes and episodes along the same "we know best" line to be morally far worse than anything "black-sheep-of-the-series" DS9 ever produced.

Even in good episodes, Picard managed to come off that way at times. Example: Picard was very lucky that Macet was on his best behavior on the Enterprise, because I MIGHT have let him slip by with decking le Capitaine for the little "YOU wouldn't know about loyalty, Cardassian?" bit. Not that Picard used those words, but that's sure what it came off as.

PLUS...Macet was RIGHT that time, too. You can have loyalty to the idea of who a person once was, but once they step over that line, that loyalty has GOT to be cut or else you become guilty too. But then, I'm a hardass like that: I would turn in family if they committed a felony and I found out.

"Your own reports describe how
rational these people are.
Millennia ago, they abandoned all
belief in the supernatural. And
now you're asking me to sabotage
that achievement... send them
back into the Dark Ages of fear
and superstition.

No. We must undo the damage we've
caused."

The bolded part is the preachy part. I know it seems to escape you because you're not religious yourself, but I suppose most evengelists don't consider themselves to be preachy for sharing "the truth". I hate to break it to you, but it's preachy to force your beliefs on others. It's true that the episode tries to hide what it's doing by having these aliens mistake Picard for a god, but it does a pretty bad job of it, as Star Trek tends to do.

The implication here is that it was a great achievement for these people to give up all religious belief, which Picard refers to as "supernatural". There's also nothing in his dialog that suggests it's just about the aliens worshiping him. So for him to suggest that religion equates to the Dark Ages and atheism equates to a great advancement would definitely qualify as preachy.

This is spot on the nose, and I'm an atheist. I personally agree with Picard's views, but the episode was blatently anti-religious, and thus will seem preachy and/or offensive to someone with religious beliefs.

How anyone cannot see the anti-religious bent in this episode is beyond me. They even portray the crazy murderer fundamentalist stereotype at the end when that dude wants to kill picard to prove his belief.

If anything, I thank you all for forcing me to go to memory alpha, I never realized that Ray Wise guest stared in this episode. I saw him recently in an A-team episode as well.

What Picard SHOULD have said would be something to the effect of, "It would be morally reprehensible to allow a people to shape their most crucial beliefs and values as a result of our interference." It should've been framed as guilt for the cultural contamination, not as a problem with religion in general.

 

[CoveTom]

Millennia ago, they abandoned all
belief in the supernatural. And
now you're asking me to sabotage
that achievement... send them
back into the Dark Ages of fear
and superstition.

That's the line I have a problem with. To me, Picard is stating that any belief in the supernatural what-so-ever is equivalent to "the Dark Ages of fear and superstition." In other words, that religion and superstition are one and the same. And that's where I get the anti-religion feel from the episode.

 

[Anwar]

It sort of makes sense in that Picard is a scientist, he would feel that way about religion more since his life is more based around facts and the like.

 

[Saturn0660]

Dealing drugs makes you blond and sort of disco-looking. Being addicted to them for generations make you look proletarian and scruffy.

Just ask Tasha:

TASHA: Wesley, no one wants to become dependent. That happens later.
WESLEY: But it does happen. So why do people start?
TASHA: On my home planet, there was so much poverty and violence, that for some the only escape was through drugs.
WESLEY: How can a chemical substance can provide an escape.
TASHA: It doesn't, but it makes you think it does. You have to understand, drugs can make you feel good. They make you feel on top of the world. You're happy, sure of yourself, in control.
WESLEY: But it's artificial.
TASHA: It doesn't feel artificial until the drug wears off. Then you pay the price. Before you know it, you're taking the drug not to feel good, but to keep from feeling bad.
WESLEY: And that's the trap?

No, the trap is that you thought you were getting a story, instead of a tract.

Feh.

I was gonna say the same esp..

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It sort of makes sense in that Picard is a scientist, he would feel that way about religion more since his life is more based around facts and the like.

And that, of course, is a common misconception: that respect for physical science and for spiritual belief are somehow mutually exclusive. I, for one, have no need to deny or alter scientific theories in order to be comfortable in my faith.