Plot hole city

[Ryan8bit]

But how does he calculate this? He's not some sort of time travel expert, he's just a "simple miner". How would he even know where to begin to calculate the exit point from a black-hole-induced time jump? It seems like it should be way over his head.

There could be a million reasons. Maybe he studied it with the help of his computer. Maybe someone in his crew knows about it, like an engineer. Or maybe he himself is knowledgeable on these things, but never pursued a job in that field. It's not really that farfetched.

At this point it's either Fantasy or Sci Fi...this is either a massive plot hole for the sci fi factor or the story is utter fantasy.

Well, since Science Fiction is a sub-genre of Fantasy I can't see your problem.

I don't think so. While they overlap quite a bit, sci fi generally tries to explain things with science or reason, where fantasy just calls explains things by saying it's magic.

 

[beamMe]

I don't think so. While they overlap quite a bit, sci fi generally tries to explain things with science or reason, where fantasy just calls explains things by saying it's magic.

Heisenberg-compensator
Flux-capacitor
midichlorians

...
there is a reason why it's called technobabble.

 

[Psion]

At this point it's either Fantasy or Sci Fi...this is either a massive plot hole for the sci fi factor or the story is utter fantasy.

Well, since Science Fiction is a sub-genre of Fantasy I can't see your problem.

Since when?

 

[Saquist]

There could be a million reasons. Maybe he studied it with the help of his computer. Maybe someone in his crew knows about it, like an engineer. Or maybe he himself is knowledgeable on these things, but never pursued a job in that field. It's not really that farfetched.

Hence the problem. Poor exposition about the antagonist.
The computer might have even done it but that's the thing about film and writing, you have to give your viewers/readers enough information. Not all of it but enough to be plausible.

Lets say they set up Nero as intelligent yet an underachiever. Then we really wouldn't nee to know how he got the calculations. We're given a clue. Right now...we have nothing but any number of assumptions as to how or why and that's far too general for story-telling.

Yes Star Wars is officially known as sci fantasy and is the most popular sci fan genre out there.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I don't think so. While they overlap quite a bit, sci fi generally tries to explain things with science or reason, where fantasy just calls explains things by saying it's magic.

Heisenberg-compensator
Flux-capacitor
midichlorians

...
there is a reason why it's called technobabble.

That's the fiction part.

Even having to have a Heisenberg compensator is addressing a scientific principle. If it were fantasy, no explanation would be needed.

 

[number6]

There could be a million reasons. Maybe he studied it with the help of his computer. Maybe someone in his crew knows about it, like an engineer. Or maybe he himself is knowledgeable on these things, but never pursued a job in that field. It's not really that farfetched.

Hence the problem. Poor exposition about the antagonist.
The computer might have even done it but that's the thing about film and writing, you have to give your viewers/readers enough information. Not all of it but enough to be plausible.

Lets say they set up Nero as intelligent yet an underachiever. Then we really wouldn't nee to know how he got the calculations. We're given a clue. Right now...we have nothing but any number of assumptions as to how or why and that's far too general for story-telling.

Frankly I don't see this as a problem. How can you be a spacefaring society and not know about blackholes?? That's as far fetched as a merchant marine not knowing about hurricanes. You don't need to waste time having a line of dialog here. It's a given and can easily be accepted as such.

 

[Saquist]

How can you be a spacefaring society and not know about blackholes??

Knowing for avoidance and knowing the parameters of a singularity artificially created for a special situation is nothing of a similarity. How did he even know Spock would come through...for that matter why was Narada destroyed later on by the same application of use?

That's as far fetched as a merchant marine not knowing about hurricanes. You don't need to waste time having a line of dialog here. It's a given and can easily be accepted as such.

They know to avoid them.
They don't necessarly know how they work.

 

[BillJ]

How did he even know Spock would come through...for that matter why was Narada destroyed later on by the same application of use?

The answer would be that the Narada was a hell of a lot closer to the formation of the latter black hole. Where Spock crashed the Jellyfish was almost within the framework of the vessel.

 

[number6]

How can you be a spacefaring society and not know about blackholes??

Knowing for avoidance and knowing the parameters of a singularity artificially created for a special situation is nothing of a similarity. How did he even know Spock would come through...for that matter why was Narada destroyed later on by the same application of use?

That's as far fetched as a merchant marine not knowing about hurricanes. You don't need to waste time having a line of dialog here. It's a given and can easily be accepted as such.

They know to avoid them.
They don't necessarly know how they work.

That's an assumption on your part and you would be incorrect.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Watch "Mirror, Mirror" - Kirk easily gets detailed info about cross-dimensional beaming from the ISS Entetprise's computer with just a few questions. Nero could have just asked the Narada where and when Spock was going to pop out of the black hole.

 

[Saquist]

How can you be a spacefaring society and not know about blackholes??

Knowing for avoidance and knowing the parameters of a singularity artificially created for a special situation is nothing of a similarity. How did he even know Spock would come through...for that matter why was Narada destroyed later on by the same application of use?

That's as far fetched as a merchant marine not knowing about hurricanes. You don't need to waste time having a line of dialog here. It's a given and can easily be accepted as such.

They know to avoid them.
They don't necessarly know how they work.

That's an assumption on your part and you would be incorrect.

Yes, I am sure all those skippers out there have degrees in meteorology. (commence Roll Maneuver Atlantis:) :Atlantis you're looking good)

Watch "Mirror, Mirror" - Kirk easily gets detailed info about cross-dimensional beaming from the ISS Entetprise's computer with just a few questions. Nero could have just asked the Narada where and when Spock was going to pop out of the black hole.

Enterprise has a library computer, an archive.
So every ship everywhere has one too...even mining vessels?

 

[Amaris]

Enterprise has a library computer, an archive.
So every ship everywhere has one too...even mining vessels?

Why wouldn't they? Seriously, are you honestly arguing that you don't think it plausible that a Romulan mining ship, which may be deployed for months or even years at a time, wouldn't have some type of archival system onboard? And even if it didn't, do you not think a Romulan computer system could calculate the trajectory and time dilation requirements to extrapolate Spock's point and time of arrival?

Keep in mind, through all of this, that Romulans are Vulcans at the root. They possess highly critical thinking skills, even the "simple" ones. They may be openly emotional, but they're still wickedly intelligent. I think you underestimate them.

 

[chardman]

It's okay to have Nero as an amateur historian that knows something of the infamous Captain Kirk...
But it's quite another to insist that he JUST HAPPENS to have the know how to calcuate temporal apatures for a signularity made by a substance that's just come on to the scene. It's DEUS EX all the way.

Hold on sport... Nero's the captain of a ship that essentially travels at FTL speeds, on a fairly regular basis, and one would have to be a completely brain-addled douche to think that there will ever come a time where a guy can get even a learner's permit to fly so much as a lowly warp-shuttle, without first proving beyond any doubt that you've got a relatively remarkable grasp of spatial, temporal, and quantum mechanics, and how to calculate all their possible interactions.

The simple fact that Nero captains his own ship is pretty much all the proof any sane person would need to know that he possesses all the skills, and is perfectly competent, to have made all of the calculations his character supposedly made in this film (particularly in the time allotted to him).

It's most certainly NOT DEUS EX all the way, but really basic common sense all the way.

In fact...For the writers to expect anyone to believe that someone in Nero's position somehow lacked these skills would represent a massive lapse in logic and thoughtful storytelling. Claiming that he has the skills that his job would most realistically actually require of him, not so much.

 

[Pauln6]

Nero could easily be a geologist or engineer with knowledge of complex mathematical, chemical, and physical phenomena. Even if he isn't it stands to reason that at least some members of his crew must be. Blue collar does not have to equal uneducated and in the 24th century that is even more likely to be true. Every ship is going to have computers and, given that Romulan ships tend to be powered by artificial singularities (although I'm not quite sure how that works...) he is also likely to have a greater working knowlegde of the different types of singuarity that exist.

Having said all that, given the complexity of the task and the fact that he only had a brief moment to scan the singularity before being sucked in, the chances of a successful calculation are about as low as the chances of beaming across a light year onto a ship at warp using an unmodified (apart from a computer algorithm) 23rd century shuttle transporter... oh, wait...

 

[number6]

It's really not hard for people to connect the dots.. You don't need a line of dialog to explain every little thing. I can't understand why people seem to need to have everything thoroughly explained. It's a movie.. It's a Star Trek movie.. It all makes perfect sense in a Star Trek way. A supernova threatening to destroy a galaxy?? I'll even admit that's a dumb line, but hardly a plothole. I don't think you know what a plot hole is, despite your attempts to invent a definition of your own.

 

[number6]

Knowing for avoidance and knowing the parameters of a singularity artificially created for a special situation is nothing of a similarity. How did he even know Spock would come through...for that matter why was Narada destroyed later on by the same application of use?


They know to avoid them.
They don't necessarly know how they work.

That's an assumption on your part and you would be incorrect.

Yes, I am sure all those skippers out there have degrees in meteorology. (commence Roll Maneuver Atlantis:) :Atlantis you're looking good)

I know how a hurricane works and I don't have a degree in meteorology.. What's your problem with this?? I'm sure a mining ship captain in the 24th century knows the dangers and complexities of black holes. Why wouldn't he?? You haven't really explained why this is such a huge problem for you to understand. Everyone else seems to get it.

Watch "Mirror, Mirror" - Kirk easily gets detailed info about cross-dimensional beaming from the ISS Entetprise's computer with just a few questions. Nero could have just asked the Narada where and when Spock was going to pop out of the black hole.

Enterprise has a library computer, an archive.
So every ship everywhere has one too...even mining vessels?

I have a blackberry and I can look stuff up if I need information, why wouldn't a captain of a 24th century mining ship have access to technology?? Do you really need a line of dialog to make this clearer to you?? Again, everyone who watched this film seems to get it.

 

[beamMe]

How did he even know Spock would come through...for that matter why was Narada destroyed later on by the same application of use?

The answer would be that the Narada was a hell of a lot closer to the formation of the latter black hole. Where Spock crashed the Jellyfish was almost within the framework of the vessel.

Exactly.
I mean, how could anyone miss the fact that this black hole was created inside the Narada?

 

[MacLeod]

If the Enterprise's maximum speed was less than warp 4 (quite a low warp speed for a 23rd century ship and VERY slow for a 24th century ship) for at least part of the journey and the Narada's maximum speed is even slightly faster than that (having travelled from Klingon space to Vulcan space in about a day after a battle with 47 Klingon ships (and pausing to collect Spock on the way and drop Spock off at Delta Vega) how did Enterprise (which spent several hours not pursuing Nero towards Earth) manage to beat her to Earth?

There are probably a dozen potential excuses (Nero wanted Earth's security codes and it took exactly the right amount of time to get them (although why he he needed them is another oddity since he needed no help with the Klingon or Vulcan planetary defences); he stopped off for ice cream; his sat nav was on the blink and he took a left turn at Albuquerque; he paused to rescue the Botany Bay and provide Khan with advanced technology; his ship was damaged but we were not told etc). However this IS a plot hole because the plot does not explain it.

We shouldn't have to bee spoon feed every single thing. You could reason it away, this ship just took out a fleet of 47 Klingon vessels, there is nothing out there that can harm this ship. So why rush to get to Earth.

This could be perhaps the biggest plot hole.:-

Ah yes Vulcan's just been destroyed and the enemy is heading for Earth. So we'll just head to the Laurentian system to confer with the rest of fleet. Whilst the most logical thing would be to hail the fleet in the Laurentian system inform them what's happened and tell them to head to Earth at maximum warp.

Of course Kirk and co can still save the day as the fleet would arrive too late to do any good. So you don't have to change the ending of the film,

 

[William Wallace]

That's an assumption on your part and you would be incorrect.

Yes, I am sure all those skippers out there have degrees in meteorology. (commence Roll Maneuver Atlantis:) :Atlantis you're looking good)

I know how a hurricane works and I don't have a degree in meteorology.. What's your problem with this?? I'm sure a mining ship captain in the 24th century knows the dangers and complexities of black holes. Why wouldn't he?? You haven't really explained why this is such a huge problem for you to understand. Everyone else seems to get it.

Uh, can you look at a radar map and predict exactly when and where the next hurricane is going to form? You see the problem there. That's about as big of leap from "miner" to "black hole specialist".

 

[number6]

Really?? You're going there? Hello!! 24th century.. Romulans with quantum singularity warp drive..

Whether he's a miner or not, Nero is the captain of a massive mining vessel from the 24th century, riding around in a big space ship.. You have yet to prove to me that he wouldn't know about the mechanics of a black hole. It's not even remotely plausible that this should be beyond the abilities of someone who makes a living in space. Not only is it pretty silly to make that leap, but it's also not a plot hole.