Okay, then how could Nero know that Spock didn't emerge first, say twenty-five years before Nero, and that Spock had simply left the area?
Plot hole city
- Thread starter William Wallace
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^ Nero probably just felt he had nothing to lose by guessing.
Or Nero figured that since Captain Robau wasn't familiar with Ambassador Spock, then it was likely Spock Prime hadn't been pulled through to an earlier time.
And, barring all that noncanon nonsense about Klingon prisons, he had 25 years (indeed, the rest of his life) in which to go to the exit point and wait for Spock to come out. The first dozen times, he might have had no real idea when and whether Spock would emerge. But ultimately, he'd work up a theory of some sort to predict the arrival. And perhaps the third or fourth such theory then gave the correct result which we saw...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
The younger Spock seemed to jump to the conclusion of black hole time travel being possible in a heartbeat. It may well be common knowledge - but it also appears that it isn't exploitable knowledge because black holes would be abundant as such, yet time travel is an extreme rarity in the Trek universe, apparently including the sub-universe seen in this movie.
Indeed, nuSpock doesn't claim that black holes are time tunnels. He merely claims that if you know how to manufacture a black hole, you probably also know how to manufacture a time tunnel, the two being separate things.
Did oldSpock deliberately create a time tunnel? That would be a nice way to save Romulus from an already happened destruction! It would also be a necessary element if the supernova had already exploded when Spock set on his rescue mission; reversing time at the center of the explosion would contain it, where mere creating of an ordinary black hole would do zip to the already expanding deadly sphere of gases.
The dialogue omits references to this, though, which is a serious shortcoming in the theory. Why wouldn't oldSpock tell Kirk or Nero the full truth about time travel? About the possibility of saving Romulus even after the planet was lost?
Timo Saloniemi
Indeed, nuSpock doesn't claim that black holes are time tunnels. He merely claims that if you know how to manufacture a black hole, you probably also know how to manufacture a time tunnel, the two being separate things.
Did oldSpock deliberately create a time tunnel? That would be a nice way to save Romulus from an already happened destruction! It would also be a necessary element if the supernova had already exploded when Spock set on his rescue mission; reversing time at the center of the explosion would contain it, where mere creating of an ordinary black hole would do zip to the already expanding deadly sphere of gases.
The dialogue omits references to this, though, which is a serious shortcoming in the theory. Why wouldn't oldSpock tell Kirk or Nero the full truth about time travel? About the possibility of saving Romulus even after the planet was lost?
Timo Saloniemi
number6
Vice Admiral
Old Spock got caught in the same black hole Nero did.. He simply didn't go through first, which is why he arrived at a different time, both into the past. For all we know the time travel caused by the red matter device only went into the one direction. I didn't have a problem with it when I saw the film the first time. It seemed perfectly acceptable in a Star Trek sort of way.
That is because there is no practical application for Time Travel. There isn't even a single theory that includes elements of certainty. Therefore, its unrealistic to expect that any movie could depict time travel in a way that holds the plot together, because there is no way of understanding the mechanics of time travel.
If you do want to see a movie that attempts to keep the plot holes to a minimum, check out Primer. But I must warn you, it's extremely hard going viewing and you can get lost easily. This is one of the reasons why movies featuring time travel have plot holes, to keep the viewer interested.
Heat can't be the issue. The core of the Earth is only about 5700°K, while a plasma torch (20th century technology) is about 25,000°. Surely there would be an easier way to generate sufficient heat that drilling to the planet's core.
Calculated it how? Black holes have never been used for time travel before, so how can anyone possibly determine the exact time and place someone will emerge from one, especially after inadvertently getting sucked into one without a pre-determined course and speed?
I don't have a problem with the Federation being friendly enough or self-interested enough to help the Romulans, I just don't understand why the Romulans can't help themselves. But if the Romulan government couldn't be bothered to save itself, why does Nero blame Spock for not saving Romulus? Shouldn't he really be angry with the jackasses in the Romulan Senate for sitting back and ignoring the problem, instead of at Spock who worked tirelessly to save them?
Why would Nero want Spock to survive after Vulcan got destroyed? Wouldn't it make more sense to just go back and get him, take him back to the ship, and torture him some more? Wouldn't Nero want to watch Spock's agony as he saw his home planet destroyed? For that matter, why did he send him down to the planet in the first place, instead of having him watch it from the ship? How did Nero know Spock would even be watching, instead of hiding in a cave, like he was when Kirk found him? How did Nero know Spock wouldn't be eaten by a snow monster?
And if Spock had "fire" and knew where the starbase was, why didn't he just go there himself, instead of hide in a cave? For that matter, how did Spock even know he was near a starbase? Even if you assume he remembers the location of all the starbases from 150 years ago, he doesn't know where on the planet he is, so he should have no idea where the starbase is. And if you assume that he was close enough to the starbase to see it from where he was beamed down, once again, why didn't he just go there himself? And if he was close enough to see it, Kirk must have trekked nearly 14km through the snow (the distance his pod told him he was from the starbase), and just as he got near the cave Spock happened to be hiding in, the snow monster happened to come out and chase him around, and he happened to stumble into the cave? Give me a break.
So, at what point does something get crushed, and at what point does it go back in time? Obviously, a ship would have jump through time at some point before it reached the center of the black hole (by which point it would be crushed by the gravity), so isn't it surmisable that parts of the ship would jump back in time before getting crushed as well?
It happened before in "Tomorrow is Yesterday". We also saw a black hole causing some bizarre time bending in Voyager's "Parallax". I can't remember if V'ger was transported through time as well as space in TMP.
About Nero calculations, Ayel says, "We've arrived at the co-ordinates you calculated." - that tells the viewer all they need to know. Nero worked it out. If you want to include deleted scenes, we see Nero's notebook, full of handwritten equations and charts. He would have known Spock's trajectory and speed as both ships were being drawn in.
Not much point in not having him survive. Nero himself had lived for 25 years in the agony of loss - certainly Spock should not be let off the hook any sooner than that!
After that, it just becomes an exercise in sadistic planning. Place Spock somewhere almost but not quite within communications resources ("You're on Delta Vega, there's an outpost 59.2 km that way, you will make it there two hours after Vulcan dies."), make sure he survives ("Here, have some of this pseudo-wood. And beware of anything purple."), and prepare some really sarcastic parting words (and practice their delivery with a mirror to be doubly sure).
Timo Saloniemi
No, only 32% of the planet will be sucked in.
Of course he is, he's from the future.
Romulans are selfish and Spock is expendable.
Spock had a flaming torch, anyone worth half a salt knows monsters hate those.
As for the cave, Spock went back in time after the movie and told nuSpock that was the place to dump Kirk off.
You mean you've never been in a black hole?
This is all pretty basic stuff dude, do some research next time.
Now this is a version of 'a wizard did it' I can get behind! Like a Stephen Moffat episode of Dr Who most of the plot holes would be tied up in a pre-destiantion bow.But isn't Nero a "simple miner"? Wouldn't you need to be a quantum physicist to calculate something as complicated as time travel, especially considering that it's not exactly something you can take a course on?
Timo said:
But why leave him on the planet? Why not just keep him on the ship, and have him watch from there? Isn't seeing your enemy suffer the whole point of revenge? Why did they just dump him on the planet and then take off?
^ Because Nero never expected Spock would be able to make it off planet. Nero had no idea that Spock knew the equations for beaming that enabled this.
As for Nero being a simple miner: Perhaps he was, but he wasn't stupid.
As for Nero being a simple miner: Perhaps he was, but he wasn't stupid.
On top of the other answers, wanted to offer:
Not a plot hole.
Not a plot hole.
Not a plot hole.
Not a plot hole.
Not a plot hole.
Not a plot hole. Next?
^ Thank you. I'm beginning to think a lot of people on the internet have to clue what the term plot hole really means. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it an automatic plot hole. Or just because you disagree with how something is handled doesn't make it a plot hole.
number6
Vice Admiral
Exactly.
That is a very good question, of course.
We could argue it was the presence of the UFP outpost there that was the key element: thanks to it, Spock had the theoretical means to warn Vulcan, but Nero had made sure Spock would be just a tad too late to deliver the warning. Perfect symmetry - Spock is late again to save the world!
Keeping Spock aboard the Narada would not provide for that. Also, Nero might have been thinking he himself would not survive the attack on Vulcan, despite extensive preparations. But his vengeance would still be delivered, and by leaving Spock behind, it would be delivered in a triply effective way: Vulcan is gone, Spock is again the one to blame, and Spock lives to tell everybody that he, not Nero, is the one to blame...
Plus, would you want to keep the accomplished escape artist and professional universe savior aboard your vehicle of destruction? The Evil Overlord Guide is your friend. If you can't kill or even sedate the guy, the next best option is not "leaving him handcuffed at the window of the most secure holding cell of your ship, watched over by three heavily armed guards (one of whom is telepathically deaf but with an IQ of 280)"... It's "placing him somewhere truly secure and far away from ya".
Timo Saloniemi
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