Plot hole city

[William Wallace]

I've never seen so many plot holes in one movie before. There are too many to list them all, but here are a few of the major ones:

1) If Nero wants to destroy planets with a black hole, why does he need to drill to the planet's core first? Won't a black hole on the surface of a planet cause just as much destruction as one at the center?

2) How does Nero know exactly when and where Spock will emerge from the black hole, in order to ambush him? Is he suddenly an expert in black-hole-based time travel?

3) Why was it the job of Spock and the Federation to use a black hole to try and save Romulus? Aren't the Romulans just as technologically sophisticated as the Federation? Moreover, aren't Romulan ships powered by black holes? Wouldn't Romulan scientists be far more adept at creating a black hole to save their world? Why are they suddenly so dependent on Spock to save them?

4) When Kirk gets chased by the "snow monster", he just 'happens' to wander into the exact same cave that Spock is hiding in. Ignoring that one-in-a-billion coincidence for a moment, the two of them exit the cave and head toward the starbase. Um, what happened the snow monsters? Did they go off and take a nap somewhere?

5) Since getting sucked into a black hole transports you back in time, When Nero's ship gets sucked into the black hole at the end of the movie, doesn't that just send him further back in time? For that matter, wouldn't the planet Vulcan have been transported back in time as well?

 

[Avon]

yes. but damn, nuSpock be sexy!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IHow does Nero know exactly when and where Spock will emerge from the black hole, in order to ambush him? Is he suddenly an expert in black-hole-based time travel?

That's covered in the Nero comics. In a nutshell (I swear I am not making this up):

Spoiler: comics

It's V'Ger.

Why was it the job of Spock and the Federation to use a black hole to try and save Romulus? Aren't the Romulans just as technologically sophisticated as the Federation? Moreover, aren't Romulan ships powered by black holes? Wouldn't Romulan scientists be far more adept at creating a black hole to save their world? Why are they suddenly so dependent on Spock to save them?

The red matter, to be used in saving Romulus, was provided by the Vulcans.

When Kirk gets chased by the "snow monster", he just 'happens' to wander into the exact same cave that Spock is hiding in.

Perhaps Kirk's escape pod homed in on the Starfleet outpost there? Its computer knew about it, anyway.

Since getting sucked into a black hole transports you back in time, When Nero's ship gets sucked into the black hole at the end of the movie, doesn't that just send him further back in time? For that matter, wouldn't the planet Vulcan have been transported back in time as well?

No and no.

 

[FarStrider]

I've never seen so many plot holes in one movie before. There are too many to list them all, but here are a few of the major ones:

1) If Nero wants to destroy planets with a black hole, why does he need to drill to the planet's core first? Won't a black hole on the surface of a planet cause just as much destruction as one at the center?

2) How does Nero know exactly when and where Spock will emerge from the black hole, in order to ambush him? Is he suddenly an expert in black-hole-based time travel?

3) Why was it the job of Spock and the Federation to use a black hole to try and save Romulus? Aren't the Romulans just as technologically sophisticated as the Federation? Moreover, aren't Romulan ships powered by black holes? Wouldn't Romulan scientists be far more adept at creating a black hole to save their world? Why are they suddenly so dependent on Spock to save them?

4) When Kirk gets chased by the "snow monster", he just 'happens' to wander into the exact same cave that Spock is hiding in. Ignoring that one-in-a-billion coincidence for a moment, the two of them exit the cave and head toward the starbase. Um, what happened the snow monsters? Did they go off and take a nap somewhere?

5) Since getting sucked into a black hole transports you back in time, When Nero's ship gets sucked into the black hole at the end of the movie, doesn't that just send him further back in time? For that matter, wouldn't the planet Vulcan have been transported back in time as well?

1. Every time we saw a black hole created, there was great heat involved. . . Supernova, Core of a planet, matter/antimatter explosion. . . plus, if you are going to destroy a planet using a black hole, the most efficient way to do it would be from it's center. . . see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEhn--ys7rU&feature=related (so, no this is not a plot hole)

2. He calculated it. . . there were cut scenes from the film that showed that. . . shrug. . . ymmv, but it's not a plot hole

3. Spock lives on Romulus, he's the Federation Ambassador to Romulus, his life's work after StarFleet has been to reconcile the Romulan and Vulcan peoples (per ST:TNG episodes Unification I and II). . .the Romulans and the Federation allied during the Dominion War. . . and the destruction of Romulus probably destablizes the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. . .plus, according to the narrative in the movie, this super-duper hyper nova was going to destroy more than Romulus. . . so why not help them? as for why Romulans didn't save their own world: they didn't believe they were in danger. . .bureaucrats, government ineptness, etc. . .(Read Countdown). . . it happens. . .sorta like Hurricane Katrina caught so many people by surprise -even when they had been warned. . . (so, not a plot hole)

4. Not as big of a coincidence as you might think. . .Nero wanted Spock to not only see his planet destroyed, but wanted him to live with the pain of losing his people. . so he put's Spock down close enough to the Federation Base to survive, but not close enough to it that he can warn anyone who might be there. . .nu!Spock puts Kirk down close to the Federation Base and the computer warns him that it is dangerous out and to wait to be picked up (which he promptly ignores and heads off toward the base -- so he and Spock are in the same vicinity at the same time). . . as for the snow monsters. . . Spock had a fire. . . and since the snow monsters were afraid of fire, it would make sense that he and Kirk took torches with them to wave the monsters off. . . not a plot hole.

5. the black hole formed INSIDE Nero's ship. . . collapsing it upon itself. . . there was no way that it would have survived. . . no way that anyone could have survived to travel back in time. . .so, not a plot hole. . .


Were you this picky with TWOK? Because I can point out a whole buttload of stuff from that movie that are GENUINE plot holes if you'd like. . .


~FS

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I've never seen so many plot holes in one movie before.

Then watch more movies.

 

[Mr Silver]

1) If Nero wants to destroy planets with a black hole, why does he need to drill to the planet's core first? Won't a black hole on the surface of a planet cause just as much destruction as one at the center?

Maybe drilling into the core is the only way to make the red matter have effect on a planet? I guess gravity cannot effect the electromagnetic field between a star and a planet (magnetism is stronger than gravity) so that rules out creating a black hole next to the planet in space.

2) How does Nero know exactly when and where Spock will emerge from the black hole, in order to ambush him? Is he suddenly an expert in black-hole-based time travel?

He's got a couple of decades in prison to work it out. He may have also programmed the Narada to continuously scan for signs of the black hole forming. Then it's just a case of warping to wherever it is.

3) Why was it the job of Spock and the Federation to use a black hole to try and save Romulus? Aren't the Romulans just as technologically sophisticated as the Federation? Moreover, aren't Romulan ships powered by black holes? Wouldn't Romulan scientists be far more adept at creating a black hole to save their world? Why are they suddenly so dependent on Spock to save them?

Spock didn't create the red matter, it was manufactured by Vulcan scientists. I assume it was made from elements that only the Federation (or the Vulcans) had direct access to and therefore it was down to Spock (as the Vulcan ambassador to Romulus) to help them out. Don't forget that Spock is a scientist (and a prodigious one at that) and his knowledge and status would have made him the ideal person to solve the problem.

4) When Kirk gets chased by the "snow monster", he just 'happens' to wander into the exact same cave that Spock is hiding in. Ignoring that one-in-a-billion coincidence for a moment, the two of them exit the cave and head toward the starbase. Um, what happened the snow monsters? Did they go off and take a nap somewhere?

The area that Kirk was deserted to could have been only a few miles in diameter. Spock probably thought it was logical to desert Kirk an hour or so' walk from the Starfleet outpost. As for the snow monsters, maybe there was just one of those giant red things and the wolf like creatures were usually hidden in fear of the red creature (who they were food for).

5) Since getting sucked into a black hole transports you back in time, When Nero's ship gets sucked into the black hole at the end of the movie, doesn't that just send him further back in time? For that matter, wouldn't the planet Vulcan have been transported back in time as well?

Vulcan destablised and crumbled, you could cleary see that. If it did get thrown back in time, all that would emerge would be rubble. As for the Narada, it probably fell apart due to the gravitational stresses from the red matter creating the black hole within the ship. Likewise, all that would emerge would be debris. The Narada and the Jellyfish survived originally because they were sucked in and they had shields and the power to stablise themselves. Even if the Narada somehow was sucked in and not destablised later on, it probably wouldn't have survived the trip through after the damage that had been done to it.

 

[number6]

There are a wide variety of ways to figure out these "plot holes." Not everything needs to be spoonfed to some of us.

 

[Broccoli]

Most of these were either explained, implied, or simply were not important enough to explain (why did red matter need to go to the core of the planet? Because it did. We don't need to know the magic science behind it).

The only thing you might have a point on is the number of coincidences that Kirk has on the ice planet including the monster apparently disappearing. But, you know what, coincidence in movies happen so often, its become a trope of its own. Also, a coincidence is not really a "plot hole" in the traditional sense of the term.

 

[T'Girl]

not important enough to explain

Star Trek Eleven in a nutshell.

2) How does Nero know exactly when and where Spock will emerge from the black hole, in order to ambush him? Is he suddenly an expert in black-hole-based time travel?

He's got a couple of decades in prison to work it out.

He can figure out Spock's point of exit. But is not smart enough to remove his wife ahead of time from a planet about to be destroyed by a fukking supernova?

Spock had time to talk to the Romulan leadership, travel to Vulcan, travel back to Romulan space. Nero had time to hang around the Supernova and wait for Spock to arrive with the red matter, so he could ambush him in revenge for the death of his wife. But not time to travel to Romulas and beam up his wife, who he was smart enough to know as going to die.

But then he would have no reason to ambush Spock in revenge, for the death of his wife.

Maybe he was so busy modifying the Narada with stolen Borg technology to take revenge on the Federation for the death of his wife, that he didn't have time to rescue his wife, from the planet he was outfitting his ship to take revenge on the Federation for the destruction of, prior to it's destruction.

Which he would have known of, because he smart enough to figure out where Spock would emerge while sitting in a Klingon prison.

Well, no plot hole there.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm seeing a lot more incorrect preconceptions and fannish assumptions than plot holes, here.

1) Symmetry!

2) He had 25 years to figure it out.

3) The film makes it crystal clear that Red Matter is something the Federation of 2387 had that the Romulans don't. And a Romulan micro singularity would put a bullet hole in the supernova, not absorb it. We only know that the Romulans use them, not that they can create them. They may well be captured.

4) It could have been anything - time of day, direction of the wind.... they were in that cave for quite awhile.

5) It opened inside his ship, crushing it. Twisted wreckage emerges into the past?

 

[Timo]

A few more ideas...

1) If Nero wants to destroy planets with a black hole, why does he need to drill to the planet's core first? Won't a black hole on the surface of a planet cause just as much destruction as one at the center?

Apparently, a black hole created by the release of all of the red matter in Nero's possession was insufficient for sucking in Kirk's starship at a distance of a few hundred meters. So it seems that red matter black holes in vacuum are next to useless as weapons of mass destruction.

Which sort of makes sense. Black holes gain in gravity if they suck in matter. In vacuum, there's nothing to suck. Inside a planet (if only a few hundred meters or a couple of kilometers down), there's plenty - and indeed when the matter runs out, the mission is completed!

A release of red matter on or near the surface might simply just generate enough commotion to kick the nascent hole back into interplanetary depths, without creating much damage.

Which raises an interesting point: Vulcan's report of geological instability came long before Nero activated his drill. Perhaps he did try a surface attack at first, and that one failed?

Nero ought to know about mining, I guess. Perhaps he immediately saw the solution to his early problems? Or perhaps he just happened to have a hammer and thus treated all problems as nails? Drilling did provide him with a bonus, that of jamming crucial enemy gear.

2) How does Nero know exactly when and where Spock will emerge from the black hole, in order to ambush him? Is he suddenly an expert in black-hole-based time travel?

"Where" might be trivial - it could be the very same place where Nero himself emerged. And indeed it could be the very same place where both of them departed, right next to the star that in the future will go supernova and destroy Romulus. All other starship-type time travel in Star Trek seems to involve leaving time T1 at place P and arriving at the very same place P at time T2...

As for "when", if Spock could calculate time travel in the late 23rd century, a Romulan computer could probably do it for Nero in the late 24th.

3) Why was it the job of Spock and the Federation to use a black hole to try and save Romulus? Aren't the Romulans just as technologically sophisticated as the Federation?

The general gist of Trek seems to be that they are not - that in some fields, they are ahead, and in others, behind.

Moreover, aren't Romulan ships powered by black holes? Wouldn't Romulan scientists be far more adept at creating a black hole to save their world? Why are they suddenly so dependent on Spock to save them?

Good point here. And one might think that Romulans had the means to save themselves, but Spock was the only one who saw the need for salvation - the only one who believed in the impending supernova explosion. If Romulus had a supply of red matter, they weren't in readiness to use it; Spock was, against the wishes of his government and the Romulans'.

4) When Kirk gets chased by the "snow monster", he just 'happens' to wander into the exact same cave that Spock is hiding in. Ignoring that one-in-a-billion coincidence for a moment, the two of them exit the cave and head toward the starbase. Um, what happened the snow monsters? Did they go off and take a nap somewhere?

Well, snow doesn't provide sustenance for too many whale-sized Cthulhu wannabes. Those two might well have been the only ones within a fifty-kilometer radius.

5) Since getting sucked into a black hole transports you back in time, When Nero's ship gets sucked into the black hole at the end of the movie, doesn't that just send him further back in time?

Yup. But this time in a broken starship, which means he's gonna die. Kirk helps him a little at that by firing at the dying ship.

For that matter, wouldn't the planet Vulcan have been transported back in time as well?

Quite possibly. But only as rubble.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BK613]

not important enough to explain

Star Trek Eleven in a nutshell.

2) How does Nero know exactly when and where Spock will emerge from the black hole, in order to ambush him? Is he suddenly an expert in black-hole-based time travel?

He's got a couple of decades in prison to work it out.

He can figure out Spock's point of exit. But is not smart enough to remove his wife ahead of time from a planet about to be destroyed by a fukking supernova?

Spock had time to talk to the Romulan leadership, travel to Vulcan, travel back to Romulan space. Nero had time to hang around the Supernova and wait for Spock to arrive with the red matter, so he could ambush him in revenge for the death of his wife. But not time to travel to Romulas and beam up his wife, who he was smart enough to know as going to die.

But then he would have no reason to ambush Spock in revenge, for the death of his wife.

Maybe he was so busy modifying the Narada with stolen Borg technology to take revenge on the Federation for the death of his wife, that he didn't have time to rescue his wife, from the planet he was outfitting his ship to take revenge on the Federation for the destruction of, prior to it's destruction.

Which he would have known of, because he smart enough to figure out where Spock would emerge while sitting in a Klingon prison.

Well, no plot hole there.

LOL, nice.
Should mention though, that, since Nero fell into the "black hole" first, he should have no knowledge of whether Spock fell into the "black hole" at all.

 

[Pauln6]

4. Not as big of a coincidence as you might think. . .Nero wanted Spock to not only see his planet destroyed, but wanted him to live with the pain of losing his people. . so he put's Spock down close enough to the Federation Base to survive, but not close enough to it that he can warn anyone who might be there. . .nu!Spock puts Kirk down close to the Federation Base and the computer warns him that it is dangerous out and to wait to be picked up (which he promptly ignores and heads off toward the base -- so he and Spock are in the same vicinity at the same time). . . as for the snow monsters. . . Spock had a fire. . . and since the snow monsters were afraid of fire, it would make sense that he and Kirk took torches with them to wave the monsters off. . . not a plot hole.

There are still some rather large plot holes in this scenario.

Firstly, Starfleet lifepods emit an emergency signal. The signal should have alerted Scotty who should have BEAMED Kirk to the outpost immediately. NuSpock's decision to waste a lifepod was illogical since it would (but for said plot holes) have delayed Kirk's rescue by a matter of minutes.

When Kirk arrives at the base, Scotty thinks they are from a supply vessel, which implies that both he and Keenser pay no attention to communications or sensors. This is silly but at least explains why Kirk had to walk for a couple of hours through a snowstorm. However, it doesn't explain why NuSpock assumed that the staff at the outpost would be so incompetent. He should have just beamed Kirk to the outpost with a security escort.

Where did Spock find the wood and how did he make his fire? I don't recall seeing any trees or foliage and it would be very wet. It is possible that Nero beamed him down with sufficient resources to survive the cold but it still a plot hole.

Once again, Scotty and Keenser were paying no attention to sensors as they didn't detect Nero's ship in orbit or a transporter signal.

Advanced Federation technology seems a bit too low tech here if it isn't set up to automatically detect distress signals and ships in orbit. This seems inconsistent with the use of long distance transporting later on - you can't send a transporter signal a light year unless you have sensors that can detect a vessel's interior with pinpoint accuracy at that distance. One would assume that they can detect things with lower accuracy at longer distances.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spock says, "In my attempt to escape, both of us were pulled into the black hole" and you see the Jellyfish being drawn in on the opposite side as Narada is being absorbed. Nero would have seen that Spock was well past the point of no return.

 

[Timo]

He can figure out Spock's point of exit. But is not smart enough to remove his wife ahead of time from a planet about to be destroyed by a fukking supernova?

Spock had time to talk to the Romulan leadership, travel to Vulcan, travel back to Romulan space. Nero had time to hang around the Supernova and wait for Spock to arrive with the red matter, so he could ambush him in revenge for the death of his wife. But not time to travel to Romulas and beam up his wife, who he was smart enough to know as going to die.

Umm, what?

There was never any mention of an "ambush", or of "hanging around". Nero, a miner of things spatial, just happened to be near Romulus when the planet was lost. Probably exactly because he shared Spock's belief that something bad was gonna happen, and thus was speeding towards Romulus.

If he shared Spock's conviction about the future (and the two apparently were quite familiar with each other), he probably also shared Spock's ideas of the timetable of the armageddon. And since Spock was wrong, and late, it only makes sense for Nero to be late as well.

The supernova probably only detonated a few minutes before it destroyed Romulus; planets tend to be mere lightminutes away from their stars, after all. The logical reason the bigwigs didn't believe in disaster was that it hadn't happened yet! And only Spock and his buddy Nero were convinced that it would.

Once again, Scotty and Keenser were paying no attention to sensors as they didn't detect Nero's ship in orbit or a transporter signal.

Let's remember that Trek sensors normally don't see through planets. It is a tactic familiar from TOS already to hide behind a planet, and Nero would obviously have used this tactic despite his apparent lack of military training.

For all we know, nuSpock used it, too - in which case he couldn't have beamed Kirk directly to the outpost, because transporters don't go through planets, either.

The nature of the base is the curious variable in this equation. Clearly, it wasn't a formidable defensive installation, because those would have good sensor coverage against the very trick of approaching from behind the world. It apparently wasn't dedicated to monitoring the events of the universe in real time, either, as the commotion relating to the loss of Vulcan never reached the occupants.

Why nuSpock went there is probably a triviality - the place just happened to lie between Vulcan and Laurentius. Why Nero went there might be the very same thing - he could have been responsible for the commotion at Laurentius, probably the location of the Klingon fleet massacre.

But the exact nature of the base would affect why nuSpock didn't contact it directly, and possibly also why oldSpock was stranded in its vicinity. If Scotty and Keenser really had some work to do down there (and it clearly didn't involve monitoring anything), it would not be unrealistic for them to completely ignore things such as starships passing by, and certainly possible for them to ignore the weak signs of a clandestine approach.

The Delta Vega episode is in any case the make-or-break part of this movie: it introduces the concept that our TOS heroes meeting is a predestined event, and reinforces that by having nuKirk meet oldSpock against odds. If we don't accept that predestination, then the movie hinges on a statistical fluke, but isn't much worse off for it. If we do accept it, it might just as well be a statistical fluke that Kirk's lifepod, aimed directly on the landing pad of Scotty's base, went astray and instead dropped Kirk next to oldSpock.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

Let's remember that Trek sensors normally don't see through planets. It is a tactic familiar from TOS already to hide behind a planet, and Nero would obviously have used this tactic despite his apparent lack of military training.

For all we know, nuSpock used it, too - in which case he couldn't have beamed Kirk directly to the outpost, because transporters don't go through planets, either.

Clearly, it wasn't a formidable defensive installation, because those would have good sensor coverage against the very trick of approaching from behind the world. It apparently wasn't dedicated to monitoring the events of the universe in real time, either, as the commotion relating to the loss of Vulcan never reached the occupants.

But the exact nature of the base would affect why nuSpock didn't contact it directly, and possibly also why oldSpock was stranded in its vicinity. If Scotty and Keenser really had some work to do down there (and it clearly didn't involve monitoring anything), it would not be unrealistic for them to completely ignore things such as starships passing by, and certainly possible for them to ignore the weak signs of a clandestine approach.

The maths don't really add up that well. Kirk is deposited a few KM from the outpost - he could have orbited the planet first (I don't recall the visual) and coincidentally landed close to the base but Spock was beamed down even closer to the base so Nero would definitely have had to have clear a sensor line.

Kirk would also need a clear sensor line to the Enterprise to beam back onto it. This would require them to wait for the planet's orbit to realign with the Enterprise but the speed of the planet's orbit would affect how long that might take. Gravity is Earthish so the planet's size/mass must be similar to Earth, although I don't know what factors would affect the speed of its rotation. It should have taken Kirk a few hours to reach the base through that snow plus time allowed chat to Spock and to sort out the transporters. It all gets very murky.

Still, at least if they are all pre-destined to meet at least we should get to meet the 'real' Pavel Chekov in a few years' time!

 

[F. King Daniel]

"Sensor line"?? Since when has Trek ever needed nonsense like that? Magical subspace sensors bely silly things like line-of-sight.

 

[Timo]

But they don't. One can hide behind planets, in all the other incarnations of Star Trek. And one is incapable of beaming through too much rock, even in this very movie.

To be sure, Enterprise and Narada sensors both performed very badly in revealing the situation on low Vulcan orbit, too. Which is only to be expected if the hero ship approached from below the horizon of the low-lying Narada.

Furthermore, dropping out of warp behind Titan was a key element in staying invisible to the Narada... Merely dropping out inside Saturn's rings and their (fictional) magnetic distortions) apparently wouldn't have been good enough.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

"Sensor line"?? Since when has Trek ever needed nonsense like that? Magical subspace sensors bely silly things like line-of-sight.

You're not thinking three-dimensionally. Just because most of the time we see things occureing on the same plane. Doesn't mean that originally they where on different planes.

 

[Timo]

The maths don't really add up that well. Kirk is deposited a few KM from the outpost - he could have orbited the planet first (I don't recall the visual) and coincidentally landed close to the base but Spock was beamed down even closer to the base so Nero would definitely have had to have clear a sensor line.

True enough. But staying close to the horizon of Delta Vega would probably allow Nero to insert oldSpock without alerting the locals. Assuming, of course, that he even knew there would be an outpost there... Or cared.

The thing is, a ship could easily hide from the outpost. But if she didn't, Scotty would probably expend quite a bit of effort in tracking down and contacting her, because he was hoping for a supply run.

OTOH, if Scotty did notice Nero, and tried to contact him, and got no response... Well, that'd be that. Another dull incident to be entered to the log at the earliest convenience, which would probably be some time next week. And no particular reason to bring this up the first thing when Scotty did meet the "supply people".

Kirk would also need a clear sensor line to the Enterprise to beam back onto it. This would require them to wait for the planet's orbit to realign with the Enterprise but the speed of the planet's orbit would affect how long that might take.

Kirk might well have gotten lucky there, tho. He'd always have a tad more than one hemisphere of sky open to him, and Laurentius and the Enterprise would thus have fair odds of being within the reach of a good transporter.

Timo Saloniemi