Plot hole city: Part II!

[BillJ]

How do we know that isn't the Hobus star?

How do you know it is? An appeal to ignorance doesn't make it the Hobus star. It's just a star. There are millions of them. The Hobus star was most likely in Romulan space.

This is the kind of stupidity in these arguments that bother me...

I'm not claiming that it is the Hobus star, just noting that you can't rule it out. Do you have any concrete evidence, any kind, that it isn't the Hobus star Nero is near in 2255?

 

[William Wallace]

1. Chekov yells "compensating for gravitational pull!" just before they materialize. It's wasn't quiet.

2. Same reason the old Enterprise kept surviving despite Scotty and Spock's repeated predictions of certain doom.

3. You assume he immediately knew Nero was hostile. If Trek ships start running away the minute there's a blip at the extreme edge of sensor range, not much is ever gonna happen.

4. He explains his reasoning at the end.

5. Exactly where where they were in every other non-Voyager/Enterprise time travel episode or movie.

1. Compensating for gravitational pull wouldn't cancel the momentum. Besides, they're still rapidly moving downward when they re-materialize.

2. There's a difference between surviving a general "we'll never get out of this" situation, and a specific "we need to leave immediately" which doesn't happen for several minutes. If the line were simply, "we can't wait around much longer, we need to leave ASAP", then that would be actually be plausible, but because it was specifically said that they would not reach a safe distance unless they left immediately, then all the dilly-dallying they did before leaving becomes a major contradiction.

3. Uh, there was a supernova and a black hole behind him. How long would it take to run away from Nero? 2 seconds? 10 seconds? If that's all it took for the black hole's gravitational pull to catch up with him, then yes, it that situation, he would have run away from anything that was even remotely in his path.

4. Yeah, he stayed behind because he didn't want to deprive Kirk and NuSpock of the "friendship" they would have together. Um, millions of Vulcans just got murdered, and millions of humans are about to get murdered, and Old Spock's biggest concern is the friendship between the two of them? Where's the "logic" in that?

5. Seems to me, in every other time travel episode, they end up "restoring" the time line to what it was supposed to be.

Just a question of curiosity. With all of these plot holes you see are you able to come up with plausible explanations on your own for any of these?

No, and that's why they're plot holes. The key word your question, though, is "plausible". You can come up with stupid deus-ex-machina explanations for anything in a movie or TV show, but plausible explanations are a little more tricky.

3. Spock needed to deploy the Red Matter in front of the shock wave so assuming that "fastest ship" means fastest at impulse he needed to slow down and position the Jellyfish for the correct deployment position.

4. Spock Prime didn't want to contaminate the timeline or create a paradox. He later changed his mind and met nuSpock as he figured the timeline had been irrevocably altered anyway. Spock Prime had known Jim Kirk for most his life and knew that he'd get the job done. He makes no distinction between "Kirk prime" and "nuKirk".

5. The timecops don't show up because Abrams-verse exists as a separate "sovereign" entity just like the Mirror universe. The 29th century Abrams-verse timecops wouldn't allow the 29th century Prime timecops to interfere with their timeline.

3. Why would "fastest ship" mean fastest at impulse? If there's an expanding supernova, wouldn't you want the fastest ship at warp so you could get there sooner?

4. Contaminate the timeline? Nero just destroyed an entire planet; it was a little too late to worry about that...

5. Lol, so the whole movie takes place in an alternate universe? Talk about the ultimate cop-out. Besides, where is this even hinted at in the film?

 

[F. King Daniel]

^Nero goes back and changes history, creating and alternate timeline. They spell it out in the film.

Besides, they're still moving downwards when they rematerialize

That's because the Enterprise has gravity.

Seems to me, in every other time travel episode, they end up "restoring" the timeline to what it was supposed to be

Then you're not paying attention. "Shockwave", "The Expanse", "Timeless" and "Endgame" are just a few examples of history being changed, and the changes not being undone.

As for the rest.... bored now. Please point me to a Star Trek film or episode which you consider "plot hole" free.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?

The Abramsverse isn't just an alternate timeline, it's an alternate *universe* as well. From the POV of the 'prime' universe, Spock and the Romulan crew simply vanished, and the flow of time continued normally.

There would be no way for the time cops to know what happened, because Spock and Nero's bunch emerged into the past of a completely different universe.

 

[6079SmithW]

3. Why would "fastest ship" mean fastest at impulse? If there's an expanding supernova, wouldn't you want the fastest ship at warp so you could get there sooner?

4. Contaminate the timeline? Nero just destroyed an entire planet; it was a little too late to worry about that...

5. Lol, so the whole movie takes place in an alternate universe? Talk about the ultimate cop-out. Besides, where is this even hinted at in the film?

3. The thing with TNG era warp speeds is that almost all ships seem to be able to achieve warp 9 and beyond with relative ease and have warp 10 as the unreachable limit. Is there really a huge difference between warp 9.7 and warp 9.9? Maybe, I don't know.

Perhaps the Jellyfish does warp 9.99999... I guess it could. For whatever reason Spock Prime was unable to jump to warp before being engulfed by the Red Matter induced black hole. It might be the fastest ship at warp but Spock wasn't able to activate warp before being pulled through.

5. It became a parallel universe the second the Narada showed up and started blasting the Kelvin. From that point onwards the timeline branches off from Prime to Alternate.

If the Prime Universe is the trunk of a tree, the abrams verse is a branch splitting off and continuing on its own way, separate but parallel to the trunk.

This was made explicitly clear in the movie with nuSpock's comment about them being in an alternate reality.

The prime universe is still intact and chugging along in concert with the abrams verse which was created in 2233.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Seems to me, in every other time travel episode, they end up "restoring" the timeline to what it was supposed to be

That doesn't make it a "plot hole" when they don't - it simply makes the movie inconsistent with some other Star Trek stories. You may care. I don't.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In Yesteryear, a pet died.

 

[Broccoli]

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?

Where were they the number of times Kirk went back to fuck with history, including the time when that was his assignment?

Or the time Sisko went back and fucked around during the Tribble episode or the 21st century ghetto episode?

Or the time Picard went back and met Mark Twain?

Or the time Archer went back and didn't prevent the old guy from missing Conan? Or, in the same episode, the time when the Xindi went back to do...something evil?

Or pretty much any time Janeway screwed with time before Braxton and the time cops were invented by the writers?

See, thing is you are always going to find problems when dealing with time travel and a long-running franchise. You can't bitch about one entry about something unless you are ready to bitch about the other entries which do the exact same thing.






Ah, fuck it. Daniels did it.

 

[number6]

Most "fans" don't even want to acknowledge the existence of VOY or ENT so why bring Braxton and Daniels into it anyway?

 

[William Wallace]

^Nero goes back and changes history, creating and alternate timeline. They spell it out in the film.

So which is it, an alternate universe, or an alternate timeline? Because it sounds like, by your logic, any kind of backwards time travel would create an alternate "timeline", so what makes the time travel in this movie different?

Besides, they're still moving downwards when they rematerialize

That's because the Enterprise has gravity.

They're already moving downwards before they materialize, as evidenced by how fast they're falling (much faster than normal gravity would pull them down).

Seems to me, in every other time travel episode, they end up "restoring" the timeline to what it was supposed to be

Then you're not paying attention. "Shockwave", "The Expanse", "Timeless" and "Endgame" are just a few examples of history being changed, and the changes not being undone.

None of those had a major effect on history, so perhaps it wasn't worth their while to correct it. For instance, in "The Expanse" (and really the entire Xindi saga), Daniels, Archer, et al manage to prevent a massive war with the Xindi, and they end up forming the Federation together, just as they were "supposed to".

That doesn't make it a "plot hole" when they don't - it simply makes the movie inconsistent with some other Star Trek stories. You may care. I don't.

Well, if the movie is part of the Star Trek canon, it should be consistent with the rest of it. Whether it contradicts things established earlier in the movie, or earlier in Star Trek, doesn't make a whole lot of difference, IMO.

 

[Harvey]

As Dennis will no doubt point out, the Star Trek "canon" isn't even consistent with itself. Certainly, when it comes to time travel, the franchise has done it so many different ways that it would be difficult not to contradict something previous.

 

[number6]

This isn't about plotholes. It's about this film going in a different direction. But, hey let's face it "Plot Hole City" is a much more dynamic title for a thread than one simply called "Stuff I Didn't Like In A Film I am Indifferent About Because They Didn't Have Me As Consultant City."

 

[Broccoli]

Does anyone else remember the "Star Trek has lost the plot" thread from year's back?

Yeah, good times.

Most "fans" don't even want to acknowledge the existence of VOY or ENT so why bring Braxton and Daniels into it anyway?

He started it!

As Dennis will no doubt point out, the Star Trek "canon" isn't even consistent with itself. Certainly, when it comes to time travel, the franchise has done it so many different ways that it would be difficult not to contradict something previous.

The only real canon is "The Cage". Everything else is just fanwank.

 

[number6]

The only real canon is "The Cage". Everything else is just fanwank.

This!!

 

[T'Girl]

Compensating for gravitational pull wouldn't cancel the momentum.

The transporter pretty much has to be able to cancel out momentum. Where I am in Seattle, I am currently moving east at about eight hundred miles per hour. Rotation of the Earth. A ship in orbit is moving faster still. Add in the factor of a possible inclined orbit and the transporter just has to be able to cancel out momentum.

There's a scene in ENT where Captain Archer is moving at a dead run when he is beamed out. He materializes stationary, he takes awkward step forward because his foot is raised. But he doesn't continue moving forward with the momentum he possessed when he was dematerialized.

Besides, they're still rapidly moving downward when they re-materialize.

No they were not. Chekov materialize Kirk and Sulu in mid air about four feet above the transporter platform, at that instant in time they were stationary. They both then fell to the platform at a normal rate of acceleration. They would have hit the deck moving at less than one foot per second, just a good hard thump.

Star Trek "canon" isn't even consistent with itself

Canon and continuity are two different things. Canon is merely everything that has ever appeared on screen.

 

[6079SmithW]

Well, if the movie is part of the Star Trek canon, it should be consistent with the rest of it. Whether it contradicts things established earlier in the movie, or earlier in Star Trek, doesn't make a whole lot of difference, IMO.

The reason that the writers created an alternate universe via time travel was to effectively rid themselves of the previous canon and start anew on a fresh slate. They didn't erase the previous canon, its still there contained in its own universe.

We are no longer following the events of that universe anymore, we are following the events of the new, alternate "abrams-verse" as created by the Narada's incursion into 2233.

 

[Saquist]

Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

The Transporter isn't a stargate.
You don't exit at the same velocity you enter the beam.

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of thos2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

That's not a plot hole. That's series continuity and this film stands out side nearly all continuity of Trek.

 

[Cyke101]

I think I can tell which posters here are having a little bit of fun and which posters are pulling out their hair from not understanding that the first group is being a little facetious.

My only nit? I don't think Kirk should have been able to talk to the Enterprise during free fall. Or rather, he can talk, it's just that they shouldn't be able to hear him, unless a mic was strapped directly on his lips and even then, the sound of rushing wind would still do a lot to muffle him out.

 

[Harvey]

Star Trek "canon" isn't even consistent with itself

Canon and continuity are two different things. Canon is merely everything that has ever appeared on screen.

Yeah, I understand that. Really, the whole idea of "canon" in the context of Star Trek just amuses the hell out of me. It's just a TV show, not a religious text.

 

[Saquist]

I think I can tell which posters here are having a little bit of fun and which posters are pulling out their hair from not understanding that the first group is being a little facetious.

My only nit? I don't think Kirk should have been able to talk to the Enterprise during free fall. Or rather, he can talk, it's just that they shouldn't be able to hear him, unless a mic was strapped directly on his lips and even then, the sound of rushing wind would still do a lot to muffle him out.

most of the threads are facetious.