Plot hole city: Part II!

[F. King Daniel]

Which is it, alternate universe or alternate timeline?

No difference.

By your logic

Not mine, the writers'

So what makes the time travel in this movie different?

The writers. The writers and producers of every incarnation of Trek make their own retcons and changes. It's always been this way. Watch how Voyager slowed down warp speed to suit it's story, after TOS and the movies repeatedly crossed the galaxy at a whim.

None of those had a major effect on history.

Wrong. Totally. Enterprise makes it abundantly clear that the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline is the result of multiple unrepaired time travels. Watch "Azati Prime", where the Enterprise-J takes part in a war against the Sphere Builders in the Expanse of the 26th century, then see Archer destroy the entire Delphic Expanse 400 years early in "Zero Hour". By that standard, STXI's alternate history is nothing major, either

 

[F. King Daniel]

As Dennis will no doubt point out, the Star Trek "canon" isn't even consistent with itself. Certainly, when it comes to time travel, the franchise has done it so many different ways that it would be difficult not to contradict something previous.

Trek works brilliantly as this enourmous "vague history", but it requires suspension of disbelief for any of it to fit together.

If you try and take it all literally, it breaks down as soon as you start to wonder how the classic Trek crew get any useful information from unlabelled blinking coloured squares on their control panels. Or, if we're complaining about time travels, how beaming Captain Christopher into his earlier self fixed history in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Well, if the movie is part of the Star Trek canon, it should be consistent with the rest of it.

Nope.

That's not what "canon" means.

It's not what "plot hole" means either. Do you know what a plot hole or plot inconsistency is?

In any event, Star Trek has been self-contradictory from the beginning. JJTrek is solidly within the Star Trek tradition of being consistent except when it's not.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

*sigh*

I don't know why, this made me lol.

 

[Pauln6]

If you try and take it all literally, it breaks down as soon as you start to wonder how the classic Trek crew get any useful information from unlabelled blinking coloured squares on their control panels.

I did used to wonder that - lol. For TMP they even went so far as to give the switches a particular control to help the actors but how an on-off switch is going to be much use for most of the ship's functions is anybody's guess. It's so cool when you think that just 40 odd years ago touchscreen tech was so advanced that they couldn't even conceive it! Still, which came first: the PADD or the ipad? One for Star Trek methinks.

 

[Broccoli]

If you try and take it all literally, it breaks down as soon as you start to wonder how the classic Trek crew get any useful information from unlabelled blinking coloured squares on their control panels.

I did used to wonder that - lol. For TMP they even went so far as to give the switches a particular control to help the actors but how an on-off switch is going to be much use for most of the ship's functions is anybody's guess. It's so cool when you think that just 40 odd years ago touchscreen tech was so advanced that they couldn't even conceive it! Still, which came first: the PADD or the ipad? One for Star Trek methinks.

Yeah, but did the PADD have "Angry Birds"? I think not!

 

[beamMe]

So which is it, an alternate universe, or an alternate timeline?

They are one and the same.

 

[DaveyNY]

I just wanna say....

"...Good Night Thread..." at this point, while I still can...

(http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5214161&postcount=206)

 

[Gojira]

As Dennis will no doubt point out, the Star Trek "canon" isn't even consistent with itself. Certainly, when it comes to time travel, the franchise has done it so many different ways that it would be difficult not to contradict something previous.

I agree. To reconcile it all with a theory that there are different types of time travel that produce different results. A person can travel back and forth within their own universe without creating a parallel universe or alternate time line but then sometimes that is what happens and time travel will create a parallel universe or alternate time line.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So which is it, an alternate universe, or an alternate timeline?

They are one and the same.

I don't agree.

 

[number6]

They called it an "alternate reality" in the film, which could mean either.

 

[F. King Daniel]

So which is it, an alternate universe, or an alternate timeline?

They are one and the same.

I don't agree.

Star Trek uses the terms interchangeably. Mirror T'Pol used the term "alternate reality" when describing the parallel universe the USS Defiant (from "The Tholian Web") came from in "In a Mirror, Darkly"

 

[Pauln6]

If you try and take it all literally, it breaks down as soon as you start to wonder how the classic Trek crew get any useful information from unlabelled blinking coloured squares on their control panels.

I did used to wonder that - lol. For TMP they even went so far as to give the switches a particular control to help the actors but how an on-off switch is going to be much use for most of the ship's functions is anybody's guess. It's so cool when you think that just 40 odd years ago touchscreen tech was so advanced that they couldn't even conceive it! Still, which came first: the PADD or the ipad? One for Star Trek methinks.

Yeah, but did the PADD have "Angry Birds"? I think not!

Angry Horta?

 

[Satyrquaze]

So which is it, an alternate universe, or an alternate timeline?

They are one and the same.

No, they are wholly seperate concepts.

An alternate timeline is created when the Enterprise-C goes missing at Narendra III, a pivitol moment in history-- or a fixed point as they call them in Doctor Who. When something is supposed to happen historically at that point and doesn't, or something else happens, it creates an alternate timeline.

An alternate universe is similar, but it doesn't require a change in history, there just needs to be a noticiable difference. The only difference between the main Star Trek universe and the Mirror Universe is that most everyone there is darker, more selfish, and generally considered "evil" by our standards. But, theres apparently no historical alteration to the timeline that would cause this. Phlox, who had studied a lot of earth history for some reason found that only the works of William Shakespeare were the same.

The 'Abramsverse' is an alternate timeline. Something in history was changed and we're lead to believe that the characters are fundamentally the same, ignoring some new experiences brought on by the addition of the Narada and Nero to that universe to that point in history.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^Who says we simply haven't seen the point of divergeance between the prime and mirror universes, far in the past?

 

[Broccoli]

I did used to wonder that - lol. For TMP they even went so far as to give the switches a particular control to help the actors but how an on-off switch is going to be much use for most of the ship's functions is anybody's guess. It's so cool when you think that just 40 odd years ago touchscreen tech was so advanced that they couldn't even conceive it! Still, which came first: the PADD or the ipad? One for Star Trek methinks.

Yeah, but did the PADD have "Angry Birds"? I think not!

Angry Horta?

It did, but when the Horta were revealed to be intelligent, space hippies cried herbert and deemed the game was offensive. The game was then removed.

 

[William Wallace]

Besides, they're still rapidly moving downward when they re-materialize.

No they were not. Chekov materialize Kirk and Sulu in mid air about four feet above the transporter platform, at that instant in time they were stationary. They both then fell to the platform at a normal rate of acceleration. They would have hit the deck moving at less than one foot per second, just a good hard thump.

Go watch the scene again. They fall 4 feet to the ground in less than 1/4 of a second.

The reason that the writers created an alternate universe via time travel was to effectively rid themselves of the previous canon and start anew on a fresh slate. They didn't erase the previous canon, its still there contained in its own universe.

We are no longer following the events of that universe anymore, we are following the events of the new, alternate "abrams-verse" as created by the Narada's incursion into 2233.

But once again, what makes this instance of time travel different than any other? Why does Braxton have to "correct" the history that Voyager alters by travelling through time, but not Nero? Don't they both create alternate universes/timelines?

Yeah, I understand that. Really, the whole idea of "canon" in the context of Star Trek just amuses the hell out of me. It's just a TV show, not a religious text.

Is there any real difference? They're both fiction anyway.

Wrong. Totally. Enterprise makes it abundantly clear that the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY timeline is the result of multiple unrepaired time travels. Watch "Azati Prime", where the Enterprise-J takes part in a war against the Sphere Builders in the Expanse of the 26th century, then see Archer destroy the entire Delphic Expanse 400 years early in "Zero Hour". By that standard, STXI's alternate history is nothing major, either

But the Sphere Builders would have used time travel to grossly distort history, so destroying the Delphic Expanse resulted in the least amount of disruption to the timeline

 

[F. King Daniel]

Bullshit, and you know it

 

[Saquist]

^Who says we simply haven't seen the point of divergeance between the prime and mirror universes, far in the past?

I've wondered if a penetration from one reality couldn't possibly perhaps be not just have an effect on positive linear progress in time but also have a retro causations.

That would explain at least why Kelvin looks so much more different than the Standard Federation ships at the time.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^Who says we simply haven't seen the point of divergeance between the prime and mirror universes, far in the past?

I've wondered if a penetration from one reality couldn't possibly perhaps be not just have an effect on positive linear progress in time but also have a retro causations.

That would explain at least why Kelvin looks so much more different than the Standard Federation ships at the time.

It looked like a realistic, big budget version of TOS to me.

I mean - does a Gorn really look like a guy in a rubber suit? Does a starship really look like plywood sets with pictures of space phenomena stuck up on the walls? Or are we just seeing a 1960's TV representaton of the 23rd century, which we're now seeing via a big budget movie in the late 2000's?