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Plot hole city: Part 3!

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Its acceptable because it's what happens, you elevate your characters. it justifies why we care about this crew rather than another!

And the chekov thing...wictor wictor...i'm guessing the computer thought he'd got the code wrong!

But that was a good bit of comedy in my opinion, broke the tension for a moment and was a nice call back to ST IV!
 
Why does it make it acceptable just because it's not unique to Star Trek?

At least Sulu was shown as making a mistake. The worst thing that happened to Chekov was the computer being unable to understand his accent. (Which is odd because I could understand him just fine. It appears that the Universal Translator doesn't exist in the nuUniverse (see Uhura & Romulan/Vulcan languages))

Sure, but the thing with fiction - you try to keep the spotlight on your heroes, not some random person occupying the set. That's just part of fiction. Its hardly a plot hole or even a flaw.

But you don't need the spotlight on every one of them all the time. By having Chekov be the only one that can save Kirk & Sulu you're essentially saying that the people that have been trained for that job are incapable of doing it. Chekov's the navigator, not an engineer. Even TOS used secondary characters to good effect. Kyle, Chapel, M'Benga. All shown as professionals and capable of doing their jobs withour someone from the bridge running in all the time.

The ship is bigger, the crew is larger. Why not let us see that, while they may be cadets, they're still competent? The focus can remain on the big 3 (+4) but you can shift the focus to the background every now and then. It adds depth.

That's what they're (the actor) being paid for. Not to have the solution fall into the lap of a bit player. Yes, you utilize your main actors or characters as much as you are able to, in order to tell the story you're telling.

It may not be realistic, but its also not real. If that's our measure we might as well put the whole thing back on a shelf and forget about it.

Kyle, Chapel, M'Benga.

None of who are transporter operator X, they're created as secondary characters, not random scene fillers. There is a difference.
 
So, every solution, EVERY problem must involve one of the big 3+4? The rest of the crew is just there for window dressing? You want your main characters to be the ones that solve the big problems. They don't have to do EVERYTHING themslves.. That's why you have a cew. That's one way that you can show why Kirk will grow to be so proud and protective of his crew, because he belives that they're important and are willing to give him their best. If they're simply carboard cutouts that make the room look full then his words will ring hollow. Let's see that the rest of the crew, not just the stars are competent. Let the stars save the day, let the crew do their jobs to support them in that goal.

Spock had just left Chekov in charge. First thing he does? Abandons his post and runs to the transporter room, passing Spock who hasn't even arrived yet. He had the Conn for what, a minute?

Let Chekov be the one to operate the sensors, working with the transporter operator. Let them be a crew, not 7 people running the whole ship by themselves.
 
So, every solution, EVERY problem must involve one of the big 3+4? The rest of the crew is just there for window dressing? You want your main characters to be the ones that solve the big problems.

Pretty much, we didn't go to the cinema hoping extra man #14 would tell kirk how to cheat the kobayashi maru...

They don't have to do EVERYTHING themslves.. That's why you have a cew.

In real life, sure...this is TV...
That's one way that you can show why Kirk will grow to be so proud and protective of his crew, because he belives that they're important and are willing to give him their best. If they're simply carboard cutouts that make the room look full then his words will ring hollow.
No, we can see that in Kirk protecting them because it's Kirk, we don't need to see them earn his protection...
Let's see that the rest of the crew, not just the stars are competent. Let the stars save the day, let the crew do their jobs to support them in that goal.

Sure, but all the saving the day has to be done by the stars...bear with...

Spock had just left Chekov in charge. First thing he does? Abandons his post and runs to the transporter room, passing Spock who hasn't even arrived yet. He had the Conn for what, a minute?

Let Chekov be the one to operate the sensors, working with the transporter operator. Let them be a crew, not 7 people running the whole ship by themselves.

No, because you just said the stars are the ones to save the day, you're contradicting yourself now.
 
There's a difference in saving the day and saving someone by simply doing your job. Not every situation has to be the BIG finish vs the bad guys.
 
Yeah, but the point is that it wasn't saving someone by doing your job, the two pads thing chekov did wasn't a common skill
 
Why does it make it acceptable just because it's not unique to Star Trek?

It doesn't.
It' just like when fans assuage bad errors by point of past errors. It's justifying error by method. Or if you rather, "The Human Shield Defense" Weakness in your Trek? Merely place some innocent and silly TOS plot device in the path of enemy fire to deflect the need to make sense. It's easy, simple are frequently used... Even a caveman can do it.

But it doesn't make Trek any better nor does raise our expectation the entertainments quality. It's just a defense and that's it.
 
Yeah, but the point is that it wasn't saving someone by doing your job, the two pads thing chekov did wasn't a common skill

Gotcha. Anything even slightly out of the ordinary requires one of the big 3+4. Everyone else is only marginally competent.

They really should just offload everyone else at the next Starbase. They just get in the way.
 
DrBashir said:
Gotcha. Anything even slightly out of the ordinary requires one of the big 3+4. Everyone else is only marginally competent.

They really should just offload everyone else at the next Starbase. They just get in the way.
No, I'm betting that during a crisis like what was going down in the film, that there were plenty of out of the ordinary things are going on, which all of the crew are competently and seamlessly handling in the background, or off camera altogether. The filmmakers didn't focus on any of that, however, because those background characters weren't the characters that the story was about.

We could have focused on the extraordinary actions of Lt. Nameless on deck 15, but that would only mean less time to focus on the extraordinary actions of those in our core group of characters who the story was actually about.

Sure, some extra could have saved Kirk and Sulu, and not involved Chekov at all. Of course, then folks would be bitching that Chekov wasn't given enough to do in the film, and complain how time was wasted on glorifying the actions of a nameless background extra, when the time could have been better used to showcase the actions of one of the featured characters we actually give a damn about.

Seriously, what's the point of telling a story about a specific group of people, if you're going to instead focus on the actions of other characters whom we aren't remotely invested in? That'd just be stupid.
 
Seriously, what's the point of telling a story about a specific group of people, if you're going to instead focus on the actions of other characters whom we aren't remotely invested in? That'd just be stupid.

Gene Siskel said:
Is this film more interesting than a documentary of the same actors having lunch?

I bring up that quote by Gene Siskel to reinforce Chardman's point because ultimately it comes down to: "Do we want to see Chekov and Sulu in action or do we want to see Extras #14 and #15 in action?" There's a pretty good reason why picking actors for supporting or recurring roles involves a much more arduous, deliberate effort than picking actors for background or extra roles. You try to get the right people for the right job, and sometimes that job means getting meatier, heavier roles that are designed to be showcased, which makes getting the right actors all the more important.

It's the same reason why half the senior staff of any given Trek show would routinely go on an away mission, even though it would wreck havoc on the ship's hierarchy if some sort of disaster struck (and often did!). It's a good thing, and ridiculously improbably lucky, senior staff rarely died on weekly away missions. Alas, once again something that happened frequently across all five Trek shows is only brought up now as a fault of, and only of, this film. But if Trek only sent down one senior staff and all red shirts (or, more realistically, an entire bunch of red shirts with the senior staff all on board), it'd get pretty boring fast. Switch it around, make a show about the lowly away team and the senior staff are all reduced to bit players, and you have a completely different show on your hands (which is fine, but such a move MUST be intentional).

To be clear, there's quite a bit to complain about in this movie, and things like NuKirk, Old Spock, and NuScotty all being so close together, or some of the humor scenes, or science and scale issues, I think that's fair game. But some of these recent "nits" are anything but, and they seem to be more concerned with finding new ways to criticize the movie than about actual plot holes, without considering things like deliberate and intentional creative licence, or the variety in human behavior. "Look at me, I'm innovative!" seems to be the intent, but it's missing the forest for the trees. Would TUC work if it was some nameless extra that caught Valeris or saved the President? What if a lone security officer who we'd never seen until the end of First Contact inexplicably knocked out Picard to go save Data from the Borg Queen? Sure, I bet anyone could argue that a decathlete security officer would be a better fighter than Picard, but does that work in the story or with the characterizations? Not at all.

It's funny, a common complaint in Trekdom was that the supporting senior staff often didn't get enough to do in the movies and TOS. Now we're complaining that the supporting senior staff is doing too much and the extras (or Pike, for that matter) aren't doing enough. So, which is it? And it's not like the movie overloaded on Sulu and Chekov, either. Sorry, but I like the fact that the writers went out of their way to make each of the Big 7 integral to eventually saving the Earth, as opposed to most of the other TOS movies. Any one could fire a torpedo at Chang or Khan, but the movie makes it clear that Chekov was the only one fast enough and smart enough (and close enough) to simultaneously compute the equations and operate the controls in time to save Kirk and Sulu on the fly.
 
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Well, I was not a fan of featuring Chekov in the origin movie at all so I'm perhaps coming at this from a different perspective, however, I think that using tertiery supporting characters is a good idea IF you give them something noticeable to do other than deliver lines. Keenser is a prime example.

Each of the characters should be given some way to shine but that should still be within the defined parameters of that character. I'm not a fan of always using just the main characters on landing parties. Every landing party should have at least one mission specialist and at least one security guard in addition to our main characters (unless one of them is a mission specialist for the job in hand e.g. Uhura for a Narada inflitration mission because she is fluent in Romulan).

TNG became much more fun once they'd established some recurring characteres like Ro, Barclay, Vash, Lwaxana etc. Like Chief O'Brien, the transporter officer in the movie could have been established as support if she had been given a few brief lines to establish her as a character in her own right. An alien with a fast reaction time could have worked. Like in NuBSG, if you establish your tertiery characters, then when you kill them it has more impact. Plus, if they intend to push the boat out and kill some of the main characters in this franchise, it would be better to have someone already established to step in and replace them. I'm in favour of lots of cameos of tertiery characters! Let the bloodbath commence!
 
True but Gaila and Keenser still made an impact despite not being necessary for the overall plot. Olsen made a negative impact and just a general splatting sort of impact by giving him no redeeming qualities. Tertiery characters can be interesting with a bit of imagination. A three armed edoan capable of re-adjusting the controls more quickly would have been just as fun and less cheesy than having Chekov run all over the ship.
 
Except a three armed Edoan would have cost money and just like ST:V wouldn't have suffered without triple-breasted-cat-dancer, no one came out of Trek(09) saying "Jeez if only Chekov had been replaced at the transporter console by a three-armed guy...

Movies have budgets and gimicks like that waste them...
 
Except a three armed Edoan would have cost money and just like ST:V wouldn't have suffered without triple-breasted-cat-dancer, no one came out of Trek(09) saying "Jeez if only Chekov had been replaced at the transporter console by a three-armed guy...

Movies have budgets and gimicks like that waste them...

Meh, there are pros and cons. Star Wars spent a fortune on background aliens and CGI, not that I'm suggesting Trek needs to go down that route, simply that having an exobiologist character is the right thing to do if the plot demands it instead of making Spock (a physicist) or Chekov (a know-it-all) an expert in exobiology.

A three-armed edoan was an example plucked out of the air; anything else could have worked - give us an andorian! There would have been cheap ways to do edoan though (or at least no more expensive than the alien already on the Kelvin). Not everything has to be CGI. Zaphod Beeblebrox in the 80s HHGttG had 3 arms with no CGI! :techman:
 
The point is though, that most Trek films suffer criticism because they only let Kirk/Spock/McCoy/(Scotty) solve the problems. Trek IV and Trek VI are genuinely well regarded because they focus on all the main characters for at least a portion of the film, giving them a role...

Star Trek has to give the big 7 a role, but then to introduce other characters as well who are only there so the geeks can go "ooh look an andorian!" is just silly...

The casual film goer watching the film wouldn't go "Well that's silly, why did Chekov leave the bridge to perform the transport, when someone else could have done it?" because the answer is given in the film: it's a risky maneoveur and Chekov "Can do that!"
 
The point is though, that most Trek films suffer criticism because they only let Kirk/Spock/McCoy/(Scotty) solve the problems. Trek IV and Trek VI are genuinely well regarded because they focus on all the main characters for at least a portion of the film, giving them a role...

Star Trek has to give the big 7 a role, but then to introduce other characters as well who are only there so the geeks can go "ooh look an andorian!" is just silly...

The casual film goer watching the film wouldn't go "Well that's silly, why did Chekov leave the bridge to perform the transport, when someone else could have done it?" because the answer is given in the film: it's a risky maneoveur and Chekov "Can do that!"

The casual movie-goer wouldn't have blinked an eye if Chekov had been entirely absent either. This was an intro movie with a lot of ground to cover; there were plenty of supporting characters generally (George, Winona, Sarek, Amanda, Pike, Gaila, Cupcake, Olsen, Keenser, Robau and his crew). If the next movie focuses on the Enterprise there should be ample opportunitues for a couple of supporting characters as and when needed.

The test is to see if the casual movie-goers will also go, "ooh look, a blue alien - cool!" They won't know if they don't try.
 
Yes, but as you say it was an intro movie and they have to introduce the main characters into the film first and foremost. Chekov doesn't have too much to do in this film, but the "I can do that" scene reinforces that he is a prodigy and why we should care about him over a blue guy...
 
Yes, but as you say it was an intro movie and they have to introduce the main characters into the film first and foremost. Chekov doesn't have too much to do in this film, but the "I can do that" scene reinforces that he is a prodigy and why we should care about him over a blue guy...

And again - this is a conceit of fiction and storytelling not just Star Trek. Not a flaw by any means, or a mistake on JJ Abrams part. In point of fact, its JJ Abrams sticking to storytelling 101...
 
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