Plot hole city: Part 3!
- Thread starter William Wallace
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Yeuch - I hope not - how unprofessional.
However, it may be that McCoy retains some semblance of Spock's expertise from when he carried Spock's katra. Perhaps they've collaborated in such a fashion in the past and because McCoy seems to know what Spock needs before he needs it, it speeds up the process.
Imagine the scene in That Which Survives with Spock on the bridge and Scotty in the jeffries tube. Replace Spock with Chekov and the Scotty with the transporter chief. Kick up the pace, switching back and forth as Chekov strugles with the sensors. At the last moment Chekov yess "Got dem!" and the transporter operator slides the controls and...it plays out the same.
It keeps Chekov as the one that saves the day without making the transporter operator seem redundant. The crew is there to serve the main characters, use them. Otyherwise, why not just put the big 7 on a ship by themselves?
It keeps Chekov as the one that saves the day without making the transporter operator seem redundant. The crew is there to serve the main characters, use them. Otyherwise, why not just put the big 7 on a ship by themselves?
I agree. Recently I've been thinking (somewhat ironically, considering this thread) that it should have been Chekov, not McCoy. It's a lot closer to his job description. Plus it would have given him something to do in the movie besides act like an idiot.
Really, I'm trying to remember when Chekov ever contributed anything to a TOS movie that didn't involve his English skills, getting clobbered, or making some kind of mistake. Or screaming.
Or look at it another way - the movie will remain cliche-ridden and we will never care about the tertiary characters who die if they never have any impact.
I watched Contagion this weekend. How refreshing it was for each of the characters to occupy an appropriate niche. For us to learn to like a character only to have them die. To see characters take risks without the audience knowing if they would lead to fatalities. To see characters make mistakes and be punished for those mistakes.
Now this was much more of an ensemble film and I'm not suggesting that Trek could or should ever go that far. I'm simply suggesting that if it was a little bit more like that, it would not be the universe-ending disaster that some propose.
Yeah...Kirk's "mistakes" were:
Saving Earth from Whale Probe
At the request of a Federation Ambassador retrieved the body of his best friend (at the cost of his son's life I might add)
Instead of remaining on Vulcan where he was exiled and thus safe from prosecution, he chose instead to return and take responsibility for his actions...
'09:
Defeated the Kobayashi Maru scenario
Saved Earth from being destroyed by mad Romulan
Ended threat of mad Romulan (before first - however briefly - offering to aid the aforementioned Romulan)
Recognised that Spock was in an unfit state and assumed command, as per instructions from his superior officer and a Federation Ambassador...
Yeah, damn you kirk...
Saving Earth from Whale Probe
At the request of a Federation Ambassador retrieved the body of his best friend (at the cost of his son's life I might add)
Instead of remaining on Vulcan where he was exiled and thus safe from prosecution, he chose instead to return and take responsibility for his actions...
'09:
Defeated the Kobayashi Maru scenario
Saved Earth from being destroyed by mad Romulan
Ended threat of mad Romulan (before first - however briefly - offering to aid the aforementioned Romulan)
Recognised that Spock was in an unfit state and assumed command, as per instructions from his superior officer and a Federation Ambassador...
Yeah, damn you kirk...
Lol. Early TOS Kirk was indeed very good. I think later on, inlcuding many aspects of the movies, he gets praise for results and everybody overlooks the fact that half the problems were caused by his dodgy decision-making in the first place. The characters succeed because the plot requires them to succeed rather than through monumental tactics or sound decision-making.
It always reminds me of Team America 'saving' Paris from terrorists.
It always reminds me of Team America 'saving' Paris from terrorists.
I disagree...there's nothing Kirk does in any of the 4 arc films that would say this...for that matter in STV Kirk becomes the only sane man in the galaxy and in STI he doesn't do anything akin to Team America "Saving" Paris...
On a related note, god I hate that film!
On a related note, god I hate that film!
I love Team America because it pokes fun at lazy Hollywood writing perfectly. Obviously those that like lazy Hollywood writing might miss out on a whole satirical level of the movie. Once again, different stokes for different folks.
In STI Kirk nearly blows them up by forcing them to warp before the ship is ready and by not learning the specs of the new ship. In STII he ignores regulations and leaves himself wide open to Khan. STV he sends in troops by shuttle(?) with no recon. In STVI Spock's plan is to slap on a skin tag that anybody should be able to detect. There are lots of silly examples.
They get there in the end but as I say, half their problems are their own stupid fault and half their successes are down to the stupidity of their foes. The incursion into Nero's ship at the end of the movie is another example.
Only 1 of those things is a problem though...
In TMP, yes Kirk orders warp and yes they encounter a wormhole...but the planet Earth was sort of in danger and all...
In TWOK, the whole point of the film is that Kirk is not as young as he once has, and the Enterprise becomes a metaphor for that fact right then, Kirk has become complacent. Thus the Enterprise is vulnerable, just as Kirk is...and point of fact, only Saavik bothers to point out that they should raise shields...everyone else agrees with Kirk...
STV - it was a stealth mission and it has already been established that the transporters aren't working...and as for no recon - they know the lay of the land, because it's a Federation colony, and they know where the villain is because Chekov's on the phone to him...
STVI - they didn't know they were going to have to rescue Kirk and McCoy from Rura Pentha. All they knew when Spock tagged Kirk was that he was beaming over to Qo'nos One...so really it was a good forward thinking by Spock...
I like satire, if you want to see good satire, watch "Holy Flying Circus" while it's still on I-Player. It's less on the nose and doesn't involve half as much swearing or the phrase "now suck my cock..."
In TMP, yes Kirk orders warp and yes they encounter a wormhole...but the planet Earth was sort of in danger and all...
In TWOK, the whole point of the film is that Kirk is not as young as he once has, and the Enterprise becomes a metaphor for that fact right then, Kirk has become complacent. Thus the Enterprise is vulnerable, just as Kirk is...and point of fact, only Saavik bothers to point out that they should raise shields...everyone else agrees with Kirk...
STV - it was a stealth mission and it has already been established that the transporters aren't working...and as for no recon - they know the lay of the land, because it's a Federation colony, and they know where the villain is because Chekov's on the phone to him...
STVI - they didn't know they were going to have to rescue Kirk and McCoy from Rura Pentha. All they knew when Spock tagged Kirk was that he was beaming over to Qo'nos One...so really it was a good forward thinking by Spock...
I like satire, if you want to see good satire, watch "Holy Flying Circus" while it's still on I-Player. It's less on the nose and doesn't involve half as much swearing or the phrase "now suck my cock..."
So we're taking cues from a film series that pretty much everyone agrees pretty much drove itself into the ground?
It's interesting how the decline of the TNG films was directly related to them becoming the Picard & Data show (with cameos from the rest of the crew).
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Lol. Early TOS Kirk was indeed very good. I think later on, inlcuding many aspects of the movies, he gets praise for results and everybody overlooks the fact that half the problems were caused by his dodgy decision-making in the first place. The characters succeed because the plot requires them to succeed rather than through monumental tactics or sound decision-making.
It always reminds me of Team America 'saving' Paris from terrorists.
That's another problem I have with the movie. Kirk is heralded is this great hero, but let's look at the things Kirk does:
1) Almost killed himself by driving a stolen car off a cliff
2) Gotten beaten half to death by picking a fight against 4 guys, only to be rescued by Pike
3) Nearly gotten killed on the drilling platform, only to be saved by Sulu
4) Nearly fallen to death "skydiving" on Vulcan, only to be saved by Chekov.
5) Nearly been eaten by the snow monster after foolishly leaving his escape pod, only to be miraculously saved by oldSpock
5) Insisting on chasing after Nero's ship despite the Enterprise clearly being no match for it
6) Beamed aboard the Narada and miraculously survived a firefight despite being outnumbered
7) Luckily survived a fight with Nero's crew member, who conveniently decided to pick Kirk up by the throat (thus bringing him within reach of his gun), instead of simply kicking him off the ledge while he was dangling.
Call me crazy, but I don't see any leadership or heroism in Kirk. All I see is recklessness, stupidity, and a miraculous amount of dumb luck.
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