Please God, No! (Transformers 2 Rumor) (SPOILER!)

[captcalhoun]

doesn't bother me. i'd rather Sunstreaker was in it with Sideswipe, but i'm just glad Sideswipe is...

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

Better actually than what they did to Acree in the comics...

 

[Bishbot]

Better actually than what they did to Acree in the comics...

God I hope so - I love almost all of Simon Furman's work - no-one writes Transformers better than him - but he really can't get his head around the idea of gender in robots, and, in my opinion, always embarrasses himself when he tries to use Arcee.

 

[Aragorn]

Considering how some (or all) of the dead robots will be coming back to life, would it be worth it to write in the name error from the first movie by saving they weren't able to completely bring back Devastator, but there's another way?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Better actually than what they did to Acree in the comics...

What happened to her in the comics?

 

[God Magnus]

So we should see Beast Wars guys running around along with Beast Machines?

Um...we DID. In the first ep of "Beast Machines" we saw the Maximals in their "Beast Wars" forms, and then they later gained new forms but were still the same characters.

 

[God Magnus]

Well, I don't think G1 should be the only influence, but as you said, the first film did draw a lot of its influences from that. Whereas Armada, like most of the other spinoffs, is pretty much in its own continuity. The notion of having characters like Jetfire and Prime combine into a gestalt is something that's unique to that continuity. So I just think it would be an odd concept to use for the next movie's version of Jetfire.

I see what you mean, but I guess for me when it comes to "influences" in fiction, my thinking is a lot more fluid. If an idea exists somewhere in the mythology of the series, I see it as open game to be borrowed for the film.

 

[exodus]

Optimus Prime is a leader YES but what the comics did so well and partly in the cartoon was show his group of commanders.

The reason why Optimus is such a great character is he has flaws. And characters like Prowl, Iron Hide, and even Ratchet fill in those flaws. Jazz too.

Why not? They are all part of Transformers. And remember they are simply robots as well. They also add depth and character to the story (Dinobot!). You can't have Transformers without the Maximals and the Predacons.

What you're suggesting would make the film 4 hours long. Young children, who these films are also geared for aren't going to sit still for that.

Where am I suggesting a 4 hour movie? I just said, they can add in the Maximals and Predacons. But it doesn't have to be long. You can continue the story in sequels.

Once again, you aren't considering the business aspect of it nor are you including your targeted audience outside of comic book readers. Especially considering not everybody that knows Transformers reads comics. Hundreds of parents know Transformers thru their kids but they've never picked up a comic book. Still, the film has to cater to them as well inorder for it to make back it's budget.

What do you mean? Use Mirage's 'hologram' projector to make human characters for the Transformers. That is how you get around the budget. And people don't have to really understand who Mirage is.

Look at the Incredible Hulk and how much of that movie was geared toward comic book readers of that genre. I mean hell, the main guy he talks too is an obscured villain that no one really knows about. And all those little things in the Dark Knight? Samuel Sterns, I didn't even really know who the hell he was until I picked up a comic book and realized who he was. And he was one of the supporting characters in the Hulk.

Batman & Robin failed because it only catered to an audience that liked the live action TV show. Serenity failed to make more because Weldon didn't make a film for the mass public, only those fans that already knew "Firefly". Unfortunately with your suggestions, Transformers would be a financial flop because you aren't considering the audience beyond the fan base. Transformers is also a film to be released Internationally, so foreign audiences that aren't into comic book culture have to relate to it as well.

Batman and Robin failed because it was an utter piece of shit, mind you. And the product placements. Plus -- well there are a million reasons why.

Iron Man, the Incredible Hulk they CATERED toward the comic book audience. But they were a huge success. What I believe Transformers should have been is something like Iron Man or the Incredible Hulk.

And you don't know what I want. I simply want strong characterization of the Transformers. Characterization is something that most people can relate to.

Why was the Dark Knight so successful?

Incredible Hulk played toward the audience of the TV show as well. The quotes, the green glowing eyes. Hell, they even found a way to work in a cameo of Bill Bixby.

Dark Knight is more like an Untouchables movie that happens to have Batman in it. The real underlying story that tied Batman & the Joker together was the mob. The mob and corruption were the main element of Batman Begins as well. Once again that's the part that grabs the mass public enough to find the comic book stuff believable. Just like the underlying story in Iron -Man was about industry. It's the reason they started off the series of films with the Iron Monger and not someone as near fantasy as the Mandarin.

Transformers did what it was meant to, make money and sell product. Not very much different than what started it when they created a cartoon to sell toys.

I think you've forgotten what Transformers really is. It's not a story in a comic book. It's a marketing tool to sell merchandise. Nothing less, nothing more.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

So we should see Beast Wars guys running around along with Beast Machines?

Um...we DID. In the first ep of "Beast Machines" we saw the Maximals in their "Beast Wars" forms, and then they later gained new forms but were still the same characters.

No, what I meant was in the movie. See a lot of Beast War guys (they seemed to me like they were the ancestors of the Micromasters)

Better actually than what they did to Acree in the comics...

What happened to her in the comics?

Essentially (and from what I read, it's been a while) Acree was a dude turned into a dudette and had issues.

What you're suggesting would make the film 4 hours long. Young children, who these films are also geared for aren't going to sit still for that.

Where am I suggesting a 4 hour movie? I just said, they can add in the Maximals and Predacons. But it doesn't have to be long. You can continue the story in sequels.



What do you mean? Use Mirage's 'hologram' projector to make human characters for the Transformers. That is how you get around the budget. And people don't have to really understand who Mirage is.

Look at the Incredible Hulk and how much of that movie was geared toward comic book readers of that genre. I mean hell, the main guy he talks too is an obscured villain that no one really knows about. And all those little things in the Dark Knight? Samuel Sterns, I didn't even really know who the hell he was until I picked up a comic book and realized who he was. And he was one of the supporting characters in the Hulk.

Batman & Robin failed because it only catered to an audience that liked the live action TV show. Serenity failed to make more because Weldon didn't make a film for the mass public, only those fans that already knew "Firefly". Unfortunately with your suggestions, Transformers would be a financial flop because you aren't considering the audience beyond the fan base. Transformers is also a film to be released Internationally, so foreign audiences that aren't into comic book culture have to relate to it as well.

Batman and Robin failed because it was an utter piece of shit, mind you. And the product placements. Plus -- well there are a million reasons why.

Iron Man, the Incredible Hulk they CATERED toward the comic book audience. But they were a huge success. What I believe Transformers should have been is something like Iron Man or the Incredible Hulk.

And you don't know what I want. I simply want strong characterization of the Transformers. Characterization is something that most people can relate to.

Why was the Dark Knight so successful?

Incredible Hulk played toward the audience of the TV show as well. The quotes, the green glowing eyes. Hell, they even found a way to work in a cameo of Bill Bixby.

Yes, but my point still stands, that one of the major minor characters is someone only comic book geeks of the Hulk genre would actually know.

Dark Knight is more like an Untouchables movie that happens to have Batman in it. The real underlying story that tied Batman & the Joker together was the mob. The mob and corruption were the main element of Batman Begins as well. Once again that's the part that grabs the mass public enough to find the comic book stuff believable. Just like the underlying story in Iron -Man was about industry. It's the reason they started off the series of films with the Iron Monger and not someone as near fantasy as the Mandarin.

They still had the Nine Rings organization in the movie (that was a hint and spoiler). They threw a lot of stuff in the movie that was part of the comics, including SHIELD (a lot of people watching the movie had no idea what the hell this organization was).

You CAN mix a great storyline with comic books, as I keep mentioning. Batman had a few cameos by other villains and such.

Transformers did what it was meant to, make money and sell product. Not very much different than what started it when they created a cartoon to sell toys.

I think you've forgotten what Transformers really is. It's not a story in a comic book. It's a marketing tool to sell merchandise. Nothing less, nothing more.

Exodus, you know I like you and respect you A LOT but what you're saying about Transformers, I'm sorry to say, is frankly, bullshit that keeps getting repeated until it's true. But like most things that bear repeating, there is some truth in that.

Was Transformers at first marketed toward boys so they would buy toys (hey that rhymes!)? Hell yes. Most cartoons in the 80s were the same way. Thundercats, He-Man, GI-Joe, even Rainbow Brite and She-Ra.

What we forget is that once we move into the 90s, that all changes. Batman: the Animated Series was a cartoon to sell toys but guess what? It is one of the best cartoons out there. Beast Wars? Same thing. Hell even in the 2000s, He-Man was revived but it was to sell toys. But it was more than that. They actually told a solid and great He-Man story to go along with that.

Transformers is simply much more than what people give it credit for. You read the back of any of the bios on Transformers and they are so detailed, explaining so much more. The studios are to blame for this. They simply wanted to market a 30 minute television commercial to kids. But something happened in the 90s where writers realized, they can do so much more than make 30 minute television commercials and Batman, X-Men, and Spider-Man were created that was enriched by the comics. Transformers, if done like the comics, would have been dark, it would have been scary, and it would have been edgy.

 

[exodus]

Interesting how all those cartoon shows you mention stopped production once the toy line sales dropped off. The bios are made for children, Transformers are toys designed for children. The fact that some adults like them doesn't change what they were intended for. How is that bullshit? I'm sure the excutives at Hasbro would be laughing there asses off at this.

Yep, dark, scary, edgey and no children because they would have lost the large portion of their marketed audience.

Frankly, I don't even understand why grown men are even debating over a movie inspired by a childrens toy to begin with. I feel like Woody the Cowboy trying to explain to Buzz Lightyear that he's just supposed to be a kids plaything and not a the real live space superhero he thinks he is.

 

[John Picard]

Interesting how all those cartoon shows you mention stopped production once the toy line sales dropped off. The bios are made for children, Transformers are toys designed for children. The fact that some adults like them doesn't change what they were intended for.

Yep, dark, scary, edgey and no children because they would have lost the large portion of their marketed audience.

Frankly, I don't even understand why grown men are even debating over a movie inspired by a childrens toy to begin with. I feel like Woody the Cowboy trying to explain to Buzz Lightyear that he's just supposed to be a kids plaything and not a the real live space superhero he thinks he is.

Very well put.

 

[exodus]

Interesting how all those cartoon shows you mention stopped production once the toy line sales dropped off. The bios are made for children, Transformers are toys designed for children. The fact that some adults like them doesn't change what they were intended for.

Yep, dark, scary, edgey and no children because they would have lost the large portion of their marketed audience.

Frankly, I don't even understand why grown men are even debating over a movie inspired by a childrens toy to begin with. I feel like Woody the Cowboy trying to explain to Buzz Lightyear that he's just supposed to be a kids plaything and not a the real live space superhero he thinks he is.

Very well put.

All that's missing are the 3 eyed little aliens.

 

[Bishbot]

Interesting how all those cartoon shows you mention stopped production once the toy line sales dropped off. The bios are made for children, Transformers are toys designed for children. The fact that some adults like them doesn't change what they were intended for. How is that bullshit? I'm sure the excutives at Hasbro would be laughing there asses off at this.

Yep, dark, scary, edgey and no children because they would have lost the large portion of their marketed audience.

Frankly, I don't even understand why grown men are even debating over a movie inspired by a childrens toy to begin with. I feel like Woody the Cowboy trying to explain to Buzz Lightyear that he's just supposed to be a kids plaything and not a the real live space superhero he thinks he is.

Very droll - but you're totally wrong. Well, not totally, of course, but Transformers these days really is a lot more than a loose story designed to sell toys, primarily because the people writing it now are the kids that used to buy the toys. Its more than a job to them and they feel they need to do justice to the version in their heads, which naturally was a lot better than the ones done by jobbing cartoon writers.

Note, the movie is not the same - people are talking about things like Beast Wars, Animated, and the current crop of comics - the movie was cookie-cutter, made to order Hollywood summer filler, if at least entertaining with it.

Because of its generic nature, I'm interested in hearing why you think that the Bay movie would sell toys more effectively than anything that people think should be closer to the cartoon or comics or whatever. To sell toys to kids you need a gimick and cool characters - every version of Transformers has those in spades, so steering a bit closer to what we've seen before would make no difference at all.

 

[exodus]

Interesting how all those cartoon shows you mention stopped production once the toy line sales dropped off. The bios are made for children, Transformers are toys designed for children. The fact that some adults like them doesn't change what they were intended for. How is that bullshit? I'm sure the excutives at Hasbro would be laughing there asses off at this.

Yep, dark, scary, edgey and no children because they would have lost the large portion of their marketed audience.

Frankly, I don't even understand why grown men are even debating over a movie inspired by a childrens toy to begin with. I feel like Woody the Cowboy trying to explain to Buzz Lightyear that he's just supposed to be a kids plaything and not a the real live space superhero he thinks he is.

Very droll - but you're totally wrong. Well, not totally, of course, but Transformers these days really is a lot more than a loose story designed to sell toys, primarily because the people writing it now are the kids that used to buy the toys. Its more than a job to them and they feel they need to do justice to the version in their heads, which naturally was a lot better than the ones done by jobbing cartoon writers.

Note, the movie is not the same - people are talking about things like Beast Wars, Animated, and the current crop of comics - the movie was cookie-cutter, made to order Hollywood summer filler, if at least entertaining with it.

Because of its generic nature, I'm interested in hearing why you think that the Bay movie would sell toys more effectively than anything that people think should be closer to the cartoon or comics or whatever. To sell toys to kids you need a gimick and cool characters - every version of Transformers has those in spades, so steering a bit closer to what we've seen before would make no difference at all.

Making Transformers live action makes a big difference because they aren't cartoons anymore, Bay entered them into our phyical world. It's every kids dream that their toys become "real".

BTW, if the kid now turned adults are writing the Transformer cartoons ,then they're doing a piss poor job. If it's for the comic books, then I don't care. I don't read comics, so not to sound arrogant but I'm part of that mass public that's coming to know Transformers thru film. So me and many like me need a film that explains the basics of what my kids are watching & playing with. Robots fighting for freedom over a another ruling class is a universal message everyone around the world can relate too. Once again, it has to be a concept people internationally can identify with, not just an American or Eastern European audience.

I also have a degree in TV & Film production, so I have a fairly good insiders view of the film making industry. So I'm dead serious when I tell you the fans base aren't the only audience these films are marketed too. If they grab you that's cool and a bonus but they're really aiming at your kids. Transformers wouldn't be going this long if they weren't constantly changing them to appeal to the next generation of young fan. Trek does it with every spin off & Star Wars is doing it with "Clone Wars", TMNT does it as well. Interesting how all of them are long term selling products from the same company.

It's more about marketing than comic books. The comics are just tied into all the marketing product.

 

[God Magnus]

Because of its generic nature, I'm interested in hearing why you think that the Bay movie would sell toys more effectively than anything that people think should be closer to the cartoon or comics or whatever. To sell toys to kids you need a gimick and cool characters - every version of Transformers has those in spades, so steering a bit closer to what we've seen before would make no difference at all.

Not debating the point, just adding color here. The fact is, the live action movie did increase toy sales amazingly well. Hasbro and thus, the toy retailers based their initial orders of the TF Movie toys on previous years' worth of TF toy sales, and yet once that movie came out it was next to impossible to find Transformers from the movie. Hasbro was able to put into effect further production runs, but the success was staggering and having the live action movie no doubt contributed to it.

 

[God Magnus]

Trek does it with every spin off & Star Wars is doing it with "Clone Wars", TMNT does it as well. Interesting how all of them are long term selling products from the same company.

TMNT isn't produced by Hasbro. It's a Playmates product.

 

[exodus]

Trek does it with every spin off & Star Wars is doing it with "Clone Wars", TMNT does it as well. Interesting how all of them are long term selling products from the same company.

TMNT isn't produced by Hasbro. It's a Playmates product.

They're still around?

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Captain Craig]

Since toy sales is part of the current discussion I've noticed that Hasbro has rereleased and created some repaints and used the movie logo. A friend and were discussing this and we think Hasbro is going to keep the movie line going. As oppossed to having ended it and then brought it back out in May 2009. This relaunch of product will be on the shelf through the holidays leaving only a few months to fill before official TF:2 product hits.

Hasbro will then have the Animated line, Universe line and Movie line all on toy shelves. This takes up a lot of space and the popularity ensures that major retailers will allot space thus reducing competition.

Sound about right?

 

[exodus]

Since toy sales is part of the current discussion I've noticed that Hasbro has rereleased and created some repaints and used the movie logo. A friend and were discussing this and we think Hasbro is going to keep the movie line going. As oppossed to having ended it and then brought it back out in May 2009. This relaunch of product will be on the shelf through the holidays leaving only a few months to fill before official TF:2 product hits.

Hasbro will then have the Animated line, Universe line and Movie line all on toy shelves. This takes up a lot of space and the popularity ensures that major retailers will allot space thus reducing competition.

Sound about right?

Yep.

Combine that with Hasbro expectations of the new SW "Clone Wars"(for kids) and the Legacy line(for collectors) with the show starting next week & their recently aquired rights to Marvel toys(including movies based lines) and Hasbro is going planning on dominating boys toys this holiday season, as well as years to come. Hasbro always thinks of marketing in the long term.

 

[Bishbot]

Interesting how all those cartoon shows you mention stopped production once the toy line sales dropped off. The bios are made for children, Transformers are toys designed for children. The fact that some adults like them doesn't change what they were intended for. How is that bullshit? I'm sure the excutives at Hasbro would be laughing there asses off at this.

Yep, dark, scary, edgey and no children because they would have lost the large portion of their marketed audience.

Frankly, I don't even understand why grown men are even debating over a movie inspired by a childrens toy to begin with. I feel like Woody the Cowboy trying to explain to Buzz Lightyear that he's just supposed to be a kids plaything and not a the real live space superhero he thinks he is.

Very droll - but you're totally wrong. Well, not totally, of course, but Transformers these days really is a lot more than a loose story designed to sell toys, primarily because the people writing it now are the kids that used to buy the toys. Its more than a job to them and they feel they need to do justice to the version in their heads, which naturally was a lot better than the ones done by jobbing cartoon writers.

Note, the movie is not the same - people are talking about things like Beast Wars, Animated, and the current crop of comics - the movie was cookie-cutter, made to order Hollywood summer filler, if at least entertaining with it.

Because of its generic nature, I'm interested in hearing why you think that the Bay movie would sell toys more effectively than anything that people think should be closer to the cartoon or comics or whatever. To sell toys to kids you need a gimick and cool characters - every version of Transformers has those in spades, so steering a bit closer to what we've seen before would make no difference at all.

Making Transformers live action makes a big difference because they aren't cartoons anymore, Bay entered them into our phyical world. It's every kids dream that their toys become "real".

BTW, if the kid now turned adults are writing the Transformer cartoons ,then they're doing a piss poor job. If it's for the comic books, then I don't care. I don't read comics, so not to sound arrogant but I'm part of that mass public that's coming to know Transformers thru film. So me and many like me need a film that explains the basics of what my kids are watching & playing with. Robots fighting for freedom over a another ruling class is a universal message everyone around the world can relate too. Once again, it has to be a concept people internationally can identify with, not just an American or Eastern European audience.

I also have a degree in TV & Film production, so I have a fairly good insiders view of the film making industry. So I'm dead serious when I tell you the fans base aren't the only audience these films are marketed too. If they grab you that's cool and a bonus but they're really aiming at your kids. Transformers wouldn't be going this long if they weren't constantly changing them to appeal to the next generation of young fan. Trek does it with every spin off & Star Wars is doing it with "Clone Wars", TMNT does it as well. Interesting how all of them are long term selling products from the same company.

It's more about marketing than comic books. The comics are just tied into all the marketing product.

You're not listening. I didn't say they weren't aimed at my hypothetical kids - I said that getting the fiction a bit more as people liked it from the cartoons and comics wouldn't harm that aspect at all. To my mind, the film is the way it is because of Bay's influence, not the toy-marketting people, who would presumably like even more colourful robots with interesting gimicks.