Pick-A-Dax

[Nerys Ghemor]

Indeed, and it also suggests that a woman should not find anything admirable in being anything but a more militant type--that if she has a different personality, she is subservient and defective. And that if a woman happens to think well of a woman who does have a gentler personality then she's betraying her own cause, in a way. There is a big difference between being softspoken and being subservient. A HUGE one.

Men are subjected to the same stereotype--a quiet man, especially one who is gentle in his treatment of others, ends up in our culture enduring insults about his virility, sexuality, or whatever else people think up. I don't care for that, either, and the irony is that such insults impugn both the man, and suggest that traits stereotypically associated with femininity are less desirable...kind of a two-for-one insult special there.

 

[Thestral]

^Well...consider the implications of the suggestion. The idea that we don't like Jadzia for being strong--therefore, we like Ezri for (allegedly) not being strong--therefore, we prefer women who are not strong, because they are not strong--therefore, we prefer women to be weak.

That is an...unfortunate mindset to possess.

Alternately, the implication isn't that there's a disapproval of strength, it's that there's a disapproval of a certain kind of strength, the kind that isn't nurturing.

And that if a woman happens to think well of a woman who does have a gentler personality then she's betraying her own cause, in a way.

Along with Rush above, there's a conflation here that's not needed.

Men are subjected to the same stereotype--a quiet man, especially one who is gentle in his treatment of others, ends up in our culture enduring insults about his virility, sexuality, or whatever else people think up.

I've never seen anybody on here insult Chief O'Brien for being one of the more quiet and softspoken men on DS9 (Keiko, of course, is a different story entirely).

 

[Distorted Humor]

^Well...consider the implications of the suggestion. The idea that we don't like Jadzia for being strong--therefore, we like Ezri for (allegedly) not being strong--therefore, we prefer women who are not strong, because they are not strong--therefore, we prefer women to be weak.

That is an...unfortunate mindset to possess.

Alternately, the implication isn't that there's a disapproval of strength, it's that there's a disapproval of a certain kind of strength, the kind that isn't nurturing.

I would never call Kira "Nurturing" but I have no problems with her. There are other issues that we are bring up with Dax. Pre-Blood Oath Dax is 10x more nurturing then Kira. It is her aloofness and and at times vapidness that cause issues.

And O'brian never gets complaints as he a badass with the manners of a rabbit, and everyone who ever read dune knows that they are the most dangerous type

 

[Deckerd]

So, to sum up; it's ok for men to be arrogant, promiscuous, self-reliant, manipulative and formidably knowledgeable but it's not ok for women; with the proviso that if they happen to be soldiers with some of these traits, provided they show some kind of weakness they can be forgiven. I think I've got it now.

 

[Distorted Humor]

So, to sum up; it's ok for men to be arrogant, promiscuous, self-reliant, manipulative and formidably knowledgeable but it's not ok for women; with the proviso that if they happen to be soldiers with some of these traits, provided they show some kind of weakness they can be forgiven. I think I've got it now.

Ummm, lets play "Jump to conclusions" game...

Kira is not Promiscuous, or arrogant. some say she whines..(And for a long time, she dates the most boring people in the world, which gives me hope. )
Ezri is not Promiscuous or arrogant....some say she has the figure of a boy (which is insane, she has nice curves)
Jazdia is not Promiscuous or arrogant...

I don't mind the pre-blood oath Jazdia, though terry Farrell is not as good of actress at first to pull off the likeable aloof but "Wise old man" which I have no problems with. Pre-blood oath I really liked Jazdia, not as much as Ezri, but lot better then a lot of characters.

When Jazdia becomes the Klingon Party Girl, and they turn the wise "Old Man" into a sorority girl who plays with swords does not mesh with the wisdom of what a Dax provides.

Also, to be blunt, Nicole de Boer and Nana Visitor are a lot better actresses then Terry Farrell. Even if Terry Farrell is a nice looker. And I would have any Dax, be it J. Dax or Ezri Dax over all but say, two of the Voyager Cast.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

So, to sum up; it's ok for men to be arrogant, promiscuous, self-reliant, manipulative and formidably knowledgeable but it's not ok for women; with the proviso that if they happen to be soldiers with some of these traits, provided they show some kind of weakness they can be forgiven. I think I've got it now.

Actually, I don't care for it when men act full of themselves either. That's why I can't stand Kirk despite his great popularity, and I know I've criticized the character for the exact same traits that I have Jadzia Dax, on multiple occasions. In fact, Kirk and post-"Blood Oath" Dax bear quite a resemblance to each other in personality traits. And my dislike of arrogance, regardless of who it is, is also why, when you look at an outright villain, I do not fall for Gul Dukat's "charm." Those traits are repellent to me no matter who has them.

Oh, and Kestrel, I never thought of O'Brien as particularly softspoken. Not a man of many words, but not subtle in saying it once he does decide to speak. (As for Keiko...I think she should never have married O'Brien, since neither of them were going to compromise on their life and career choices.)

 

[Kestra]

When Jazdia becomes the Klingon Party Girl, and they turn the wise "Old Man" into a sorority girl who plays with swords does not mesh with the wisdom of what a Dax provides.

Why though? Why wouldn't wisdom also tell you that life is meant to be fun? What's wrong with this supposed Klingon Party Girl idea, and why can't it fit with other aspects of her personality?

 

[iguana_tonante]

^ Because a women's life is not meant to be fun. Or at least, not that kind of fun. She drinks, she fights, she flirts, she enjoy life, she's smarter than you and she's not afraid to tells you that. Who she think she is, a man?

 

[Mage]

So, to sum up; it's ok for men to be arrogant, promiscuous, self-reliant, manipulative and formidably knowledgeable but it's not ok for women; with the proviso that if they happen to be soldiers with some of these traits, provided they show some kind of weakness they can be forgiven. I think I've got it now.

Of for godsake get of your high horse already. Nobody's saying that. If the Jadzia Dax character had been the same but as a man, I would have found the character just as boring.

I'm really sorry, but you've been a bit on the offensive ever since people have simply been honoust why they don't like the Jadzia character. Some people love her, others don't. End of story.

Yes, some really are as shallow as you say. And that's sad, very sad. But that doesn't mean you can say ALL men are like that. You're being condesending about men, while you are saying men are condesending towards assertive woman. Basicly, you're the one that's generalizing.

 

[Rush Limborg]

When Jazdia becomes the Klingon Party Girl, and they turn the wise "Old Man" into a sorority girl who plays with swords does not mesh with the wisdom of what a Dax provides.

Why though? Why wouldn't wisdom also tell you that life is meant to be fun? What's wrong with this supposed Klingon Party Girl idea, and why can't it fit with other aspects of her personality?

^ Because a women's life is not meant to be fun. Or at least, not that kind of fun. She drinks, she fights, she flirts, she enjoy life, she's smarter than you and she's not afraid to tells you that. Who she think she is, a man?

*sigh* Let me put it this way:

I have no problem--no problem--with women who wish to have "that kind of fun". A woman wants to express herself in that manner--fine by me.

Just don't ask me to find that attractive--because I don't. I would probably never (in fact, decidedly never) ask that kind of woman out--that does not mean I want to suppress those kinds of women. As I have said--on this very thread--I think KPG Jadzia and I would get along pretty well as buddies. That doesn't mean I'd ask her if she's free for the night.

I don't want to "impose" standards on women by any stretch of the imagination. I am simply stating that Ezri has the kind of personality that I find attractive and captivating. It is a matter of personal taste, not any nonsense about "suppression" of women who want to find their own way to have fun.

Just because I don't find Jadzia's style of "fun" attractive doesn't mean women are not "supposed" to be able to have that kind of "fun". I simply prefer the style of "fun-loving" that women like Ezri possess.

I hope that clears everything up.

So, to sum up; it's ok for men to be arrogant, promiscuous, self-reliant, manipulative and formidably knowledgeable but it's not ok for women; with the proviso that if they happen to be soldiers with some of these traits, provided they show some kind of weakness they can be forgiven. I think I've got it now.

Of for godsake get of your high horse already. Nobody's saying that. If the Jadzia Dax character had been the same but as a man, I would have found the character just as boring.

I'm really sorry, but you've been a bit on the offensive ever since people have simply been honoust why they don't like the Jadzia character. Some people love her, others don't. End of story.

Yes, some really are as shallow as you say. And that's sad, very sad. But that doesn't mean you can say ALL men are like that. You're being condesending about men, while you are saying men are condesending towards assertive woman. Basicly, you're the one that's generalizing.

QFT and ITA!


BTW...as for "smarter than you and not afraid to tell you that"--yeah, as Nerys pointed out, that's offensive in both genders.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Let me also add that from my perspective as a woman--men who act the way Jadzia does bore the crap out of me and would not be date material. Again--nothing uneven about my standards as to who I would and would not want to hang out with in real life.

 

[Kestra]

I still don't get why so many people are looking at it primarily from the perspective of dating and marriage material. To me, Jadzia seems like she'd be a blast just to have around.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I still don't get why so many people are looking at it primarily from the perspective of dating and marriage material. To me, Jadzia seems like she'd be a blast just to have around.

Again--I agree. I think Jad would be a great buddy--again, "one of the guys". I could see having her over with the boys to watch the Super Bowl--or the Daytona 500 (which I once biked past when it was starting off, BTW!).

I just like Ezri better, because not only would she be a great person to have around as a friend, but a great girl to have around, as someone close....

 

[iguana_tonante]

Because dating and/or marriage is the only real use of a woman. That's the unsaid assumption, I'd surmise.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Once again, I...fail to see your logic, sir.

 

[Distorted Humor]

I have to agree with Rush, One of my best friends is a women who lives life to the fullest, Flirty, drinks, damn smart (one of the top ten smartest people I have met, man or women) and while for a women her age is is attractive, she is more of a dinner buddy and even if we where the same age, I would not want to marry her or date her. but I enjoy our lunch or dinner conversations greatly. (think bashir and Garak talking, as we can talk about many subjects in detail.)

For me dating, I don't mind a strong woman, but I don't want a girl who parties all the time, and so on, then again, I don't drink and prefer a simple life. As for males who share that trait, only one is in my circle of friends, as he would litterly fly half way across the world for me, so that loyalty earned him major points , even if he is a arrogant prig

 

[Mage]

Because dating and/or marriage is the only real use of a woman. That's the unsaid assumption, I'd surmise.

Is this seriously your own opinion?? My God......

 

[Distorted Humor]

Because dating and/or marriage is the only real use of a woman. That's the unsaid assumption, I'd surmise.

errr, he said that they are wonderful friends, but (understandably) he prefers someone who could be a partner, and not just a friend. I think most males and females wish they had someone who was both a best friend and a spouse

 

[Kestra]

Once again, I...fail to see your logic, sir.

I can see it. It's what I've been trying to describe but have apparently failed to do so. But it seems like many of the people who like Ezri talk in detail about her femininity or that the traits that they specify liking are those which are stereotypically feminine. Even you, when talking about some sort of alter-Jadzia (?) spoke of how you liked her and she seemed "sweet" and "more vulnerable."

I'm not saying that you think all women belong in the kitchen or something (or maybe you do!) but surely you can at least see what we're talking about here. How some of these opinions can be interpreted in this light.

I have to agree with Rush, One of my best friends is a women who lives life to the fullest, Flirty, drinks, damn smart (one of the top ten smartest people I have met, man or women) and while for a women her age is is attractive, she is more of a dinner buddy and even if we where the same age, I would not want to marry her or date her. but I enjoy our lunch or dinner conversations greatly. (think bashir and Garak talking, as we can talk about many subjects in detail.)

For me dating, I don't mind a strong woman, but I don't want a girl who parties all the time, and so on, then again, I don't drink and prefer a simple life. As for males who share that trait, only one is in my circle of friends, as he would litterly fly half way across the world for me, so that loyalty earned him major points , even if he is a arrogant prig

I'm not criticizing your choice of who you'd want to marry, but I'm asking why it's about that here.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I still don't get why so many people are looking at it primarily from the perspective of dating and marriage material. To me, Jadzia seems like she'd be a blast just to have around.

She wouldn't be, for me. And I would not be looking at her in any sort of amorous fashion, since I am not interested in women.

In my case, if I were looking at men, I would not be too interested in dating OR hanging out with a man like Kirk (the best male comparison to Jadzia). That whole shtick would get aggravating fast. If I can't sit down and get to KNOW you on more levels than just partying, and if you are constantly into one-upsmanship, that is not grounds for friendship, partnership, marriage, or any of it.

I would be much better friends with Kira. She's strong, but she doesn't express that in a way that feels the need to make light of others. She has that confidence without thinking she's the best thing since sliced bread. I would feel like I could learn a thing or two from her--but learn without being belittled or devalued for what I am, which is much closer in personality to Ezri.

For Ezri, my liking for her is admittedly a "like me" thing. I see similar traits to myself and I would feel like I could be who I am around her without being judged.