I could not disagree more, in the way you mean it. Not only because of my orginal replies, but because the storylines make oit Janeway to deal with the Borg like they were a new warp capable species. Wereas, TNG with a far more powerful ship could hardly defend against the borg. Im gavt one cube at wolf 359 destroyed half the fleet. Thats one cube.
Picard Versus Janeway?
- Thread starter CaptainKate91
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Forgive the grammar mistakes. On iPhone
Enterprise D was not a far more powerful ship than Voyager. It was top of the line in 2364, Voyager was top of the line in 2371, having had the benefit of seven years of research into faster engines and new weapons and defenses specifically to fight against the Borg. When Enterprise D was built they were in a period of extreme feelings of security, it was optimized for research and exploration over combat, and weapons technology advanced heavily in the next seven years *because* of the Borg. And I would peg the differences in Borg strength between series on writing inconsistencies, not in one captain being better than another.
I disagree with your characterization of Janeway as a megalomaniac. She doesn't always act on advice from her crew but always listens to it. Whenever she does react stubbornly, it's not based on ego, it's because of a fanatical protectiveness of her crew. And frankly, Picard is stubborn as well, he's just less questioned by his most senior staff. Picard is a better diplomat, obviously, but his command style is not beyond criticism either. He's intimidating and intolerant of those who don't immediately fit in, he trusts by default and can be reactive to threats rather than proactive.
I would agree that Picard is the better overall Captain, just he does not win every single category.
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Galaxy class ship is more powerful than an interpid class ship. It's far bigger, has far more photon torpedoes and more phaser banks. It could last longer in a fire fight. Voyaher does have it's advantages such maneuvering and neural gel packs rather EPS relays, having a faster resonae time. I agree completely with your last statement the borg strength was due to writing inconsistencies and possibly poor research on old episode.
I need to stop editing my post while you're writing the response to it. 
Bigger is irrelevant. The Defiant is much smaller and better in combat than either. The Enterprise D is big because it's optimized for research and diplomatic missions. It's larger size gives it a lot more surface area to protect, a lot more mass to drag around the maneuver. It's a bigger target. More photon torpedoes and more phaser banks, I have no way to confirm whether or not that's correct, but again quantity is not an argument of quality.
And if we are judging ships based on end of series rather than start of series, then you have to count Voyager's ablative armor, quantum torpedoes and various 29th century and Borg hacks.
And besides, if Voyager is a weaker ship and had more success against the Borg, isn't that an argument *for* Janeway?
Bigger is irrelevant. The Defiant is much smaller and better in combat than either. The Enterprise D is big because it's optimized for research and diplomatic missions. It's larger size gives it a lot more surface area to protect, a lot more mass to drag around the maneuver. It's a bigger target. More photon torpedoes and more phaser banks, I have no way to confirm whether or not that's correct, but again quantity is not an argument of quality.
And if we are judging ships based on end of series rather than start of series, then you have to count Voyager's ablative armor, quantum torpedoes and various 29th century and Borg hacks.
And besides, if Voyager is a weaker ship and had more success against the Borg, isn't that an argument *for* Janeway?
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I need to stop editing my post while you're writing the response to it.
Bigger is irrelevant. The Defiant is much smaller and better in combat than either. The Enterprise D is big because it's optimized for research and diplomatic missions. It's larger size gives it a lot more surface area to protect, a lot more mass to drag around the maneuver. It's a bigger target. More photon torpedoes and more phaser banks, I have no way to confirm whether or not that's correct, but again quantity is not an argument of quality.
I apent some of my youth building star trek models, which in the 90's only included the original Enterprise, TNG Enterprise and deep space nine. Not sure if the Defiant was out the be built. However, on the models the phaser banks on the TNG were more numerous. I understand that a galaxy class starship presents a bigger target but one must assume it must have more generate power. There's also no proof that Voyager was deigned to combat the borg. I may be wrong but in a fire fight between a Galaxy class and Intrepid class I would give it to the former. You are right the Defiant in DS9 is solely designed for combat and is far more smaller with imprresive array of wepons, such as quantum torpedoes and great great defense systme such as ablative armour. In terms of quantity of torpedoes in the time frames I think quantity is relevant. I'm glad I discovered this thread.I need to stop editing my post while you're writing the response to it.
Bigger is irrelevant. The Defiant is much smaller and better in combat than either. The Enterprise D is big because it's optimized for research and diplomatic missions. It's larger size gives it a lot more surface area to protect, a lot more mass to drag around the maneuver. It's a bigger target. More photon torpedoes and more phaser banks, I have no way to confirm whether or not that's correct, but again quantity is not an argument of quality.
I don't think that's relevant. Admirals don't "fly" and I'm certain Picard would of been offered a position as an admiral. But, likeLiek says in Generation, dont let them take you out of the captains seat.
*kirk
I don't think janeway owned the selta quadrant herself. The inconsistencties in Voyager are numerous. Janeway can fly into the heart of Borg domain amd defeat them several times like they were children, im the Equinox episode could barely defeat a Captain with a far less superior ship amd resources. I don't see how Picard "barely made it" and Picard was more content as a Captain than an andmiral.
It is in the writing we base our reactions. It is what stands, it IS the story. One can't dismiss it here and uphold it there, sure we can critique it but it was indeed written that Janeway made it through the Delta Quadrant. Voyager encountered the Borg several times and survived. Ransom and the Equinox were also dealt with.
To be fair I don't think Picard cared about being an Admiral. Yet there is value in offering your command skills to a command structure. Janeway did that.
To be fair I don't think Picard cared about being an Admiral. Yet there is value in offering your command skills to a command structure. Janeway did that.
I agree it is the writing we base our reactions on and Janeway and Voyager deal with the borg easily. The writers in TNG show that the borg are the biggest threat the federation face. The storyline was developed and the opposing forces abilities known. To me it's writer inconsistency and very poorly done. While I agree there is value to command experience being offfered to command structure you will always need a commander for the actual battles that has experience (if not more than a admiral) leading the battle.
Thank you, I have no friends that are interested in Star Trek so I'm glad I found this forum.Calum Gore, welcome to the board
I know that emotions and feelings could be said to come into play about many different voyager topics but when it comes to voyager and Janeway's popularity, or critiquing Janeway's decisions, it screams out to be mentioned.
I'll repeat here something I wrote before: I saw a short doco many years ago about leadership. In it they had two people in leadership roles. One male and the other female. They both did the same thing and acted the same way. The male was perceived as being fine, he was doing his job, he was a decent boss. However the female who was doing the same things and saying the same things was perceived as a bitch. B**** being my sumarising of what they said. A disturbing thing about it, well that is to say another disturbing thing about it is that not all of the respondents who thought she was this b**** were male.
Janeway will without doubt be disliked by some as the captain because she is female and then some of those people will back it up with points of logic that they fish about for.
Another possible thing against Janeway is that both TOS and TNG have had movies made that may boost their captains popularity.
From a little look around startrek.com it looks like the results from the captains polls that they run pretty much have Picard winning with Janeway and Kirk coming in second place. Janeway beating Kirk in one and Kirk beating Janeway in another.
I wonder if the undoubted bias that comes into play with her being a woman and with any influence of the movies being subtracted, how much more popular Janeway might rate.
I'll repeat here something I wrote before: I saw a short doco many years ago about leadership. In it they had two people in leadership roles. One male and the other female. They both did the same thing and acted the same way. The male was perceived as being fine, he was doing his job, he was a decent boss. However the female who was doing the same things and saying the same things was perceived as a bitch. B**** being my sumarising of what they said. A disturbing thing about it, well that is to say another disturbing thing about it is that not all of the respondents who thought she was this b**** were male.
Janeway will without doubt be disliked by some as the captain because she is female and then some of those people will back it up with points of logic that they fish about for.
Another possible thing against Janeway is that both TOS and TNG have had movies made that may boost their captains popularity.
From a little look around startrek.com it looks like the results from the captains polls that they run pretty much have Picard winning with Janeway and Kirk coming in second place. Janeway beating Kirk in one and Kirk beating Janeway in another.
I wonder if the undoubted bias that comes into play with her being a woman and with any influence of the movies being subtracted, how much more popular Janeway might rate.
For me its Picard > Janeway > Sisko > Archer/Kirk.
For me, both Picard and Janeway are the major attractions to their respective shows. Whereas Sisko is a good character but not that big a deal to me (maybe just because there as so many great characters in DS9) and I pretty much dislike Archer and Kirk.
For me, both Picard and Janeway are the major attractions to their respective shows. Whereas Sisko is a good character but not that big a deal to me (maybe just because there as so many great characters in DS9) and I pretty much dislike Archer and Kirk.
It's an interesting viewpoint, but I don't entirely agree with it. Sexism does exist in the 21st century (against males as well as females now), but I think this is a topic for another thread regarding current events that have been shaped by history with a sprinkle of evolution theory in there. Picard is a better captain, in my view, because of his solid acting experience before TNG. Gene Roddenberry, didn't want to even cast him until he saw Patrick Stewarts audition. TOS and TNG had movies (some were really bad e.g. Star trek the motion picture and Start Trek Nemesis and Insurrection) because TNG had better ratings that that of Voyager and the TOS series had movies because of relatively good ratings, speaking for that time period were competing with the likes of Star Wars. That's why The Wrath of Khan gets my all time favourite movie, with a low budget coming out near the time time of Star Wars, it did so well, and it's a good movie and paved the way for the rest of the Star Trek Movies. As for the original question who is a better captain, it always comes down to who would win in a firefight, Johnathan Frakes did a great job showing how strong the Borg are in First Contact, with far more ships and far more advanced technology. Janeway and the Voyager crew make the Borg seem weak, even if you did liberate a drone. Picard also had experience as a captain before commanding the flag ship of Star Fleet, where he a skirmish with the Ferrengi, was involved in the Cardassian wars, and was involved in a few more wars. Whereas, Janeway, Voyager was her first command and we have no basis of her experience in fighting wars. For me it's writer inconsistency that failed Voyager and spoiled Janeways popularity as Captain. As a diplomat he is far better that all the captains, as a leader he maintains a healthy distance from his crew, than that of Janeway, which earns him respect. Voyager is still a good series, but there are some many inconsistencies, perhaps this polling and questions in entirely unfair.
I thought Archer was going to be a great captain and character, but I based this on Quantum Leap. And, it turned out that he was terrible. Kirk paved the way for us all to be having these conversations on these threads, and it was a different time when they made that show. I feel DS9 was too much like Babylon 5 towards the end, when they has a whole new quadrant of space to explore. Picard will always offer all the skills and experience that are needed in any situation, Janeway was looking at her first command with Voyager and was tossed into the Delta quadrant. But, my opinion is that you are right, in your pecking order, excluding Kirk.
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