Picard Versus Janeway?

[Prax]

Janeway is a great Captain, and Mulgrew a magnificent actress, no less so than Stewart. Yeah, I know...Stewart is always hailed as thee great actor because he did SHAKESPEARE! While Shatner is always made fun of for his hammy acting, but Shatner is also a magnificent actor, especially in the Original Series. Mulgrew was only a few years younger when she began Voyager than Stewart when he began TNG. They both had plenty of experience in the theatre, and on the screen.

And the Borg weren't exactly invincible in TNG. The only reason they were able to destroy all those ships was because they assimilated Picard. Otherwise that cube would have been toast.

 

[LJones41]

I agree it is the writing we base our reactions on and Janeway and Voyager deal with the borg easily.

What? The Voyager crew dealt with the Borg . . . easily? WTF? I can't even deal with arguments about "Voyager" when I keep encountering comments like this.

As for who is the better captain - Picard or Janeway - I don't know. There probably isn't a "better captain" among the bunch. They're just different. How can one judge who is better based upon differences?

 

[Calum Gore]

Janeway is a great Captain, and Mulgrew a magnificent actress, no less so than Stewart. Yeah, I know...Stewart is always hailed as thee great actor because he did SHAKESPEARE! While Shatner is always made fun of for his hammy acting, but Shatner is also a magnificent actor, especially in the Original Series. Mulgrew was only a few years younger when she began Voyager than Stewart when he began TNG. They both had plenty of experience in the theatre, and on the screen.

And the Borg weren't exactly invincible in TNG. The only reason they were able to destroy all those ships was because they assimilated Picard. Otherwise that cube would have been toast.

I beg to differ, Kate Mulgrew is know where close to Patrick Stewart's acting capability. I take from the tone of your reply that you are belittling Patrick Stewart's Shakespering acting roots. I am not saying Kate Mulgrew is a poor actress Unfortunately it seems you cannot judge acting ability between the two, I mean this with no insult and I take your opinion onboard. With Kirk over the top acting was quite popular in Kirk's era, he was just better at it. Speaking in terms of Picard he had far more experience as a diplomat and had been in more wars, (he got the flag ship of the federation for a reason) whilst being a captain of previous vessels. Janeway was not as experienced as Picard in diplomacy or conflict, and Voyager was her first command. Janeway was a far better scientist than Picard, and we all know Picard loved ancient history, which is why I would rate her at number 2 on the Captains Chair.

I also beg to differ on your last point, the Borg assimilated Seven of Nine's parents and their technology, as well as 1000's of species, before Q threw them 7000 light years into the path of a Borg cube, which the Enterprise couldn't stop. Not to mention the Borg's ability to communicate instantly and adapt accordingly. They were designed by the creators to be nearly unstoppable, with a very not so well hidden meaning, in the real world. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Calum Gore]

What? The Voyager crew dealt with the Borg . . . easily? WTF? I can't even deal with arguments about "Voyager" when I keep encountering comments like this.

As for who is the better captain - Picard or Janeway - I don't know. There probably isn't a "better captain" among the bunch. They're just different. How can one judge who is better based upon differences?

When you quote something, especially me, I would be obliged you provide the full quote. Read the sentences before the quote. This is as simple as it gets the writers in Voyager purposely made the Borg weaker so an Intrepid class starship can make it through Borg space. As for who is a better Captain you can judge who is a better Captain even if they are different. It's the differences that would make them a better Captain or not. You can judge a Captain based on the whole picture to take charge of a starship, you can only judge a Captain on their unique differences for a single mission. And, if you cannot deal with arguments about the Borg question or any other, which they are not, they are debates then don't throw your hat in.

 

[Prax]

The Borg attacked the Enterprise and caught them totally off guard. The next year is spent developing ships, weapons, and tactics to defeat them. BoBW makes it pretty clear that by assimilating Picard, all of Starfleet's advantages became the Borg's advantages, but they still beat them in the end. They beat them again in First Contact, and (the)Janeway (s)beat them in Endgame. The Borg were never made "weaker."

I'm not denigrating Patrick Stewart, but he shouldn't be held up and lorded over Mulgrew. Was he more experienced? Maybe, maybe not. And Shatner regularly showed great subtlety, and great range.

Next time you have unlimited time on your hands, just compare the first seasons of each show, and how naturally the lead actors slide into their roles.

 

[Calum Gore]

The Borg attacked the Enterprise and caught them totally off guard. The next year is spent developing ships, weapons, and tactics to defeat them. BoBW makes it pretty clear that by assimilating Picard, all of Starfleet's advantages became the Borg's advantages, but they still beat them in the end. They beat them again in First Contact, and (the)Janeway (s)beat them in Endgame.

I'm not denigrating Patrick Stewart, but he shouldn't be held up and lorded over Mulgrew. Was he more experienced? Maybe, maybe not. And Shatner regularly showed great subtlety, and great range.

Next time you have unlimited time on your hands, just compare the first seasons of each show, and how naturally the lead actors slide into those roles.

 

[Calum Gore]

I’ve watched all the shows numerous times since I was a boy. We’ll have to disagree on these two points. My opionion is Stewart is a far better actor than Mulgrew, that’s not saying she is a bad actress. And, my previous points about the borg stand and I don’t want to repeat them, they speak for themselves. The Borg were set in TNG to be the deadliest enemy and nearly unstoppable to the federation. Voayager makes the borg look weak. The Borg adapt, they adapted after Picard was liberated.

 

[Prax]

Except they kept getting beaten before ever showing up on Voyager.

Besides, Voyager was a faster, smarter, and more heavily armed ship than the Enterprise, and even then it took Admiral Janeway to travel to the past with a bunch of anti-Borg technology before they could beat the Borg.

 

[Calum Gore]

Except they kept getting beaten before ever showing up on Voyager.

Besides, Voyager was a faster, smarter, and more heavily armed ship than the Enterprise, and even then it took Admiral Janeway to travel to the past with a bunch of anti-Borg technology before they could beat the Borg.

The borg got beat because Q returned them to their original position, after it was about to be destroyed. In Best of Both Worlds they were only beaten because Riker liberated Piccard and in an ironic twist used their own tactics agaisnt them. In First Contact, the fleet was nearly destroyed and it was only Picards intimate knowledge of the borg that killed the cube.

Saying an intrepid class star ship is more powerful than a galaxy class is open for debate. The Enterprise was retrofitted with new technology and upgraded weapons three times in the series. The few years when the enterprise was destroyed to when Voyager was launched, would not see a huge amount of advancement in weapons. I think a galaxy class ship would win a firefight. Voyager went into the heart of borg space with fleets of cubes. Cannot counter with the time traveling Janeway and the antiborg tech.

 

[Prax]

Voyager would probably win. In a battle between two ships (on earth), the faster ship has the major tactical advantage. In the Star Trek world I assume being the smarter, faster thinking ship wouldn't hurt. NTM Voyager can go where the Enterprise cannot, and to over the top off this geek battle, Voyager is covered with guns!!!....I mean...Phasers!!! And Torpedoes!!! The "Warship Voyager" in that one episode isn't that much of an exaggeration.

So in Q-Who, Enterprise is saved from the Borg(who at this point they know little to nothing about)by a godlike being.

In BOBW, Enterprise beats the Borg through trickery, has the opportunity to wipe out the Borg through trickery iBorg, and beats them in Descent with the help of an Android. Then in First Contact, a fleet of ships is struggling, but winning against a Borg cube. Later, they see the Borg sphere-"torpedoes" blammo, its gone.

Now in Voyager,
In Scorpion/The Gift, Voyager is saved from the Borg by a godlike being.
From that point on, they are no longer in Borg territory. They encounter them here and there. Now Janeway has the advantage that the Borg had when they abducted Picard, enter Seven of Nine.

Next encounter is Dark Frontier I believe. They steal from the Borg and escape through trickery.

There's the one with "29th century Borg guy." He transports to a cube and flies it into a star.

There's the one with Icheb's parents. They narrowly escape through trickery(brilliant trickery I might add)

Unimatrix Zero- Yeah, okay this ones kinda dumb imo, but the Borg aren't weaker. And its no worse than "Descent" methinks.

Then Endgame. Janeway beats the Borg through trickery, giving them a virus(like Picard was going to do)

 

[Calum Gore]

Voyager would probably win. In a battle between two ships (on earth), the faster ship has the major tactical advantage. In the Star Trek world I assume being the smarter, faster thinking ship wouldn't hurt. NTM Voyager can go where the Enterprise cannot, and to over the top off this geek battle, Voyager is covered with guns!!!....I mean...Phasers!!! And Torpedoes!!! The "Warship Voyager" in that one episode isn't that much of an exaggeration.

So in Q-Who, Enterprise is saved from the Borg(who at this point they know little to nothing about)by a godlike being.

In BOBW, Enterprise beats the Borg through trickery, has the opportunity to wipe out the Borg through trickery iBorg, and beats them in Descent with the help of an Android. Then in First Contact, a fleet of ships is struggling, but winning against a Borg cube. Later, they see the Borg sphere-"torpedoes" blammo, its gone.

Now in Voyager,
In Scorpion/The Gift, Voyager is saved from the Borg by a godlike being.
From that point on, they are no longer in Borg territory. They encounter them here and there. Now Janeway has the advantage that the Borg had when they abducted Picard, enter Seven of Nine.

Next encounter is Dark Frontier I believe. They steal from the Borg and escape through trickery.

There's the one with "29th century Borg guy." He transports to a cube and flies it into a star.

There's the one with Icheb's parents. They narrowly escape through trickery(brilliant trickery I might add)

Unimatrix Zero- Yeah, okay this ones kinda dumb imo, but the Borg aren't weaker. And its no worse than "Descent" methinks.

Then Endgame. Janeway beats the Borg through trickery, giving them a virus(like Picard was going to do)

I spent my youth building star trek models including voyager and 1701-D and the enterprise had phaser banks on it’s warp naccels and in other places aft and forward torpedoes, far larger, but less manoeuvreable and not as quick as Voyager. I believe it could last longer in a fire fight, especially with it’s upgrades.

I BoBW Picard tells Data “Sleep” using his knowledge he learned in the collective against the cube, which then self-destructs.

In iBorg they was no direct contact apart from La Forge beaming tonthe surface of the moon when Hugh goes back.

In Descent it’s far more complex, there’s a rebel movement by hugh and it’s not the collective they are fighting against, but a renegade collective.

Of course when Picard joins the fleet he knows exactly where to place the fire on the cube and the sphere. Using his knowledge gained from his assimilation. If not the Cube would of carried on towards earth, while destroying more ships.

I believe that the borg were made purposely weaker in Voyager so they could survive. The TNG writers backed themselves into a corner with an unstoppable enemy.

 

[Prax]

I spent my youth building star trek models including voyager and 1701-D and the enterprise had phaser banks on it’s warp naccels and in other places aft and forward torpedoes, far larger, but less manoeuvreable and not as quick as Voyager. I believe it could last longer in a fire fight, especially with it’s upgrades.

I BoBW Picard tells Data “Sleep” using his knowledge he learned in the collective against the cube, which then self-destructs.

In iBorg they was no direct contact apart from La Forge beaming tonthe surface of the moon when Hugh goes back.

In Descent it’s far more complex, there’s a rebel movement by hugh and it’s not the collective they are fighting against, but a renegade collective.

Of course when Picard joins the fleet he knows exactly where to place the fire on the cube and the sphere. Using his knowledge gained from his assimilation. If not the Cube would of carried on towards earth, while destroying more ships.

I believe that the borg were made purposely weaker in Voyager so they could survive. The TNG writers backed themselves into a corner with an unstoppable enemy.

Do you have any examples of how they were made weaker?
In iBorg, they don't end up using the virus, but they developed it nonetheless, and stated it would destroy all Borg. This virus scheme is used again in Voyager. Once by Icheb's people, and then by Janeway. Both times by allowing someone with the virus to be assimilated. In unimatrix zero, there is also a Borg rebellion which is helping Voyager.

The only time where Voyager(the ship) is a physical threat to the Borg is in Endgame.

 

[Calum Gore]

Do you have any examples of how they were made weaker?
In iBorg, they don't end up using the virus, but they developed it nonetheless, and stated it would destroy all Borg. This virus scheme is used again in Voyager. Once by Icheb's people, and then by Janeway. Both times by allowing someone with the virus to be assimilated. In unimatrix zero, there is also a Borg rebellion which is helping Voyager.

The only time where Voyager(the ship) is a physical threat to the Borg is in Endgame.

Yes, from Season 4 to 7, when the Borg learned of Voyager the from the first time Voyager encountered the Borg in Scorpion, yes, yes I know Janeway had the technology to beat species 74872 (might be wrong designation), but the Borg would of used any opportunity from that moment on, even after Scorpion. They had every advantage, maybe they are no longer in Borg Space after Kes throws Voyager out of Borg space, but still far from home. Now the Borg have a Liberated Drone on board that they can communicate with at will and Transwarp tech, catching them at will. The Borg from TNG would of been relentless in assimilating one of the latest ships from the federation. That's why I think the writers backed themselves into a corner with such a formidable opponent.

 

[Calum Gore]

Do you have any examples of how they were made weaker?
In iBorg, they don't end up using the virus, but they developed it nonetheless, and stated it would destroy all Borg. This virus scheme is used again in Voyager. Once by Icheb's people, and then by Janeway. Both times by allowing someone with the virus to be assimilated. In unimatrix zero, there is also a Borg rebellion which is helping Voyager.

The only time where Voyager(the ship) is a physical threat to the Borg is in Endgame.

By the way, I did look at the tactical systems of Voyager and 1701-D, turns out voyager had 14 phaser banks and the 1701-D only 10 phaser banks. Enterprise had 250 torpedoes, whereas Voyager had less than 40. the Enterprise had 4000 souls, crew and family and voyager 157 crew. Even after looking at this and the 1701-D upgraded with the same phaser types as Voyager I believe 1701-D would win in a firefight. But, voyager is a very powerful ship.

 

[Sophie74656]

What? The Voyager crew dealt with the Borg . . . easily? WTF? I can't even deal with arguments about "Voyager" when I keep encountering comments like this.

As for who is the better captain - Picard or Janeway - I don't know. There probably isn't a "better captain" among the bunch. They're just different. How can one judge who is better based upon differences?

You know how it goes...they say Voyager beat Borg ships too easily but when you ask for an example of when Voyager beat a full size Borg ship at full power with no crew members aboard sabotaging from within....they never have an answer

 

[Sophie74656]

Do you have any examples of how they were made weaker?
In iBorg, they don't end up using the virus, but they developed it nonetheless, and stated it would destroy all Borg. This virus scheme is used again in Voyager. Once by Icheb's people, and then by Janeway. Both times by allowing someone with the virus to be assimilated. In unimatrix zero, there is also a Borg rebellion which is helping Voyager.

The only time where Voyager(the ship) is a physical threat to the Borg is in Endgame.

In Endgame they have weapons and armor from the future.

 

[Sophie74656]

By the way, I did look at the tactical systems of Voyager and 1701-D, turns out voyager had 14 phaser banks and the 1701-D only 10 phaser banks. Enterprise had 250 torpedoes, whereas Voyager had less than 40. the Enterprise had 4000 souls, crew and family and voyager 157 crew. Even after looking at this and the 1701-D upgraded with the same phaser types as Voyager I believe 1701-D would win in a firefight. But, voyager is a very powerful ship.

A galaxy class ship would have an Intrepid class ship outgunned for sure but the intrepid being smaller and more maneuverable may be able to hold it's own

 

[Sophie74656]

When you quote something, especially me, I would be obliged you provide the full quote. Read the sentences before the quote. This is as simple as it gets the writers in Voyager purposely made the Borg weaker so an Intrepid class starship can make it through Borg space. As for who is a better Captain you can judge who is a better Captain even if they are different. It's the differences that would make them a better Captain or not. You can judge a Captain based on the whole picture to take charge of a starship, you can only judge a Captain on their unique differences for a single mission. And, if you cannot deal with arguments about the Borg question or any other, which they are not, they are debates then don't throw your hat in.

Can you back up the statement about the writers purposely making the Borg weaker?