Spoilers Picard Series Retrospective: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[evilchumlee]

I don't get this argument. Him coming back doesn't undo his sacrifice.

It kind of does... because... he didn't actually die. A sacrifice only really works if something is lost. But... i'm also not particularly zealous about this. It's fine.

The real damning point to the idea of Confederation-Past-Guinan being distinct from Federation-Past-Guinan is that Federation-Present-Guinan remembered everything that happened in the past in the season finale. So does Federation-Present-Guinan also not remember "Time's Arrow" because she's actually Confederation-Past-Shimed-To-Federation-Present Guinan, and all pre-2024 time-travel in Star Trek post-Picard has been replaced with similar but distinct Confederation versions? Does Confederation-Past-Guinan suddenly remember, "I already met that old guy when I was hanging out with Mark Twain," when team-Picard averts the Confederation timeline and she becomes Federation-Past-Guinan again?

Now *THIS* is the better question.

I can comfortably put this in the "Q did it" category. This wasn't "normal" time travel... any of the normal rules can be thrown out the window. We've never seen a consciousness time travel independent of its body, inhabit a body in a different timeline, time travel to the past, and then return to the original timeline still in the body of the alternate timeline (which also means... shouldn't Prime Timeline Picard still be there when Confederation Picard Body shows up?)

This is all Q rules now. Q made this time travel happen. Q sent everyone back. Q let Guinan remember what happened in both timelines... Or it might not even be Q chicanery and just El Aurian chickanery... she might remember the S2 events and the 1895 just by virtue of being El Aurian.

EDIT -

*OR* a third option is that actually yes, Picard was always in 1895. Guinan was suffering from the timeline sickness. She wasn't at 100%, it's been established that the shifting timelines can have a dramatic effect on El Aurians. She may not have remembered Picard from 1895 just because he timeline-senses were all out of wack.

 

[fireproof78]

It kind of does... because... he didn't actually die. A sacrifice only really works if something is lost. But... i'm also not particularly zealous about this. It's fine.

Agree to disagree, because he didn't know he would live. That's the nature of sacrifice to me.

For me, the character perspective makes all the difference in the world. Spock's sacrifice in TWOK is not undone because he ends up coming back. Likewise, Spock's efforts to save Pike from his fate in the Menagerie are not less dramatic because he receives no punitive measures.

Regardless of the consequence, if a character walks in to a situation thinking they are going to die then that carries the meaning. Mileage will vary.

 

[Boo-khat!]

If Prime Picard's timeline is erased, Prime Picard never exists. If Prime Picard never exists, he could not go to 1895. It is not a shared timeline. If someone from the future time travels into the past, but their future no longer exists, making it so that they never time travelled into the past... they... never time travelled into the past.

...Because the punk seemed to remember his encounter with Kirk and Spock, which means that the Confederation timeline version of Kirk and Spock must have travelled to 1986. It could have possibly not been because of the wale probe... it could have been some other reason... or hell maybe they time travelled to a different year and had a similar encounter with that punk (we also know in Trek that the timeline will attempt to "repair" itself).

You are going under a false assumption. You seem to think that the prime timeline was erased, and that Punk on the Bus was remembering a similar encounter with Confederacy Kirk and Spock. But that's nonsense. If 2024 was the point where the timeline changed (because that was clearly mentioned in the show, which was the entire reason why they went back to that point in time), then by the 23rd century of the Confederacy timeline, there would be no "Kirk and Spock." The Confederacy hates all aliens. Kirk and Spock would not be working together to save Earth by going back in time to rescue whales. They would be bitter enemies. Sarek was beheaded in front of his wife and son. Why would Confederacy Spock be helping Kirk to save Earth? Heck, why would Spock, a half-Vulcan half-Human, even exist? And why would Amanda, a human, have even married a Vulcan? Maybe Q was referring to the Vulcan priestess and Sybok when he referred to Sarek's 'wife and son.'

No, the clear implication of that scene was to link the events of TVH to the story, just like the Sanctuary Disctricts were meant to link the DS9 episode "Past Tense" to the story. Matalas either didn't know about the events of "Time's Arrow," forgot them, or just didn't care.

 

[evilchumlee]

You are going under a false assumption. You seem to think that the prime timeline was erased, and that Punk on the Bus was remembering a similar encounter with Confederacy Kirk and Spock. But that's nonsense. If 2024 was the point where the timeline changed (because that was clearly mentioned in the show, which was the entire reason why they went back to that point in time), then by the 23rd century of the Confederacy timeline, there would be no "Kirk and Spock." The Confederacy hates all aliens. Kirk and Spock would not be working together to save Earth by going back in time to rescue whales. They would be bitter enemies. Sarek was beheaded in front of his wife and son. Why would Confederacy Spock be helping Kirk to save Earth? Heck, why would Spock, a half-Vulcan half-Human, even exist? And why would Amanda, a human, have even married a Vulcan? Maybe Q was referring to the Vulcan priestess and Sybok when he referred to Sarek's 'wife and son.'

These are all interesting questions that we don't know the answer to. I can conjecture all day. They had an alien slave class. Perhaps Spock was Kirk's manservant?

It's also possible that the punk was recalling a similar incident that may have occurred with Kirk and -notSpock-.

No, the clear implication of that scene was to link the events of TVH to the story, just like the Sanctuary Disctricts were meant to link the DS9 episode "Past Tense" to the story. Matalas either didn't know about the events of "Time's Arrow," forgot them, or just didn't care.

It's almost certainly more complicated than that. I don't believe Matalas didn't know or forgot about Time's Arrow. He's very much a Star Trek geek like us. Rather, it fit the story better to have Guinan not know Picard. That's the explanation.

The particulars can be left up to us.

If you really want to keep the former time travel in place, let's also not forget that it was 1895... that was a long time ago. Guinan may well have just not recognized Picard after over a century, and even the whole idea that "but, he was a time traveler!" doesn't really say much... we know there's all manner of time travelers and aliens on Earth. It's not a particularly unique situation.

In the 24th century parts of Time's Arrow, Guinan now definitely does remember Picard from the couple of past interactions they had and put two and two together. Hell she may not have even just straight up recognized him at first but when she heard about the situation with Data's head... she was like "Oh shit, it's THAT guy!"

I know it's more fun for some people to want to crap of Matalas for... making a good show(?) but i'd rather just talk about what happened on screen rather than just saying "writer sucked".

 

[Boo-khat!]

These are all interesting questions that we don't know the answer to. I can conjecture all day. They had an alien slave class. Perhaps Spock was Kirk's manservant?

It's also possible that the punk was recalling a similar incident that may have occurred with Kirk and -notSpock-.



It's almost certainly more complicated than that. I don't believe Matalas didn't know or forgot about Time's Arrow. He's very much a Star Trek geek like us. Rather, it fit the story better to have Guinan not know Picard. That's the explanation.

The particulars can be left up to us.

If you really want to keep the former time travel in place, let's also not forget that it was 1895... that was a long time ago. Guinan may well have just not recognized Picard after over a century, and even the whole idea that "but, he was a time traveler!" doesn't really say much... we know there's all manner of time travelers and aliens on Earth. It's not a particularly unique situation.

In the 24th century parts of Time's Arrow, Guinan now definitely does remember Picard from the couple of past interactions they had and put two and two together. Hell she may not have even just straight up recognized him at first but when she heard about the situation with Data's head... she was like "Oh shit, it's THAT guy!"

I know it's more fun for some people to want to crap of Matalas for... making a good show(?) but i'd rather just talk about what happened on screen rather than just saying "writer sucked".

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Uhura's Song]

First off, I am clearly a S3>S1>S2 guy. But I generally liked S1, S2 was not good, though.

S1: Lots to like here. I like the post supernova Picard/SF fallout. I like Raffi. Really like Rios and his backstory. Thought it meshed well with the Androids. Loved the family Riker stuff. Loved Laris. I though Pill knocked it out of the park. Liked a post SF Seven. Liked the Romulan spy & his badasss sister. Loved the Data death scene.

S1: not so great.

Hugh's death. Another Dr. Soong. The Doctor Who magic screwdriver solution at the end. A secret Romulan society being able to muster 100s of ships was ridiculous. And the cut & paste Starfleet ships. And the dress up episode.

S2: Loved Seven's journey without the implants. And Pill's work again. The Confederation stuff was OK. As was new/old Guinan, Wesley, and the Borg Queen/splinter group. And the Operation: Earth spin. Loved Laris, again. Rios' death was fine with me. Loved Q's reintroduction.

S2: No real explanation for what was ailing Q. The Soong/Ahas plotline. Picard/pilot infiltration episode. Them not seeing the Borg Queen thing coming a mile away. The whole middle part of the season. The Seven/Raffi romance.

S3: Almost universally well done.

S3: Picking nits. Did not love leaving Laris hanging. Or Ro's death (although she went out like a badass). And the two ships vs the fleet thing went in WAY too long to be plausible to me (in Prodigy as well). The one episode where Riker chipdishly yelled at Pucard after their attack felt wrong and really bugged me.

 

[Uhura's Song]

S1: Good
S2: Bad
S3: Very Good to Great

 

[Daedalus of the Dead]

An ugly thing that annoys me about S3 is Data's projector eyes. That didn't need to be a thing...