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Picard Season one.... I miss Star Trek

@Lance , thank you very much for your kind words. And I'm very impressed by your willingness to re-consider longheld views.

I would, however, like to suggest with respect that you maybe swinging just a little too far in the other direction. ;) (Maybe I'm just a born contrarian.)

I do think that the Federation and Starfleet present in TNG is actually more morally flawed than TNG is generally aware of as a narrative. And I do think that all of the characters on TNG are more flawed than TNG realizes. (Prime example: Geordi is incredibly creepy to Leah Brahms in her two episodes, but the narrative frames him as though he's in the right, even though he behaves completely inappropriately and sexually harasses her.)

But! That doesn't mean I don't think TNG still presents an optimistic vision of our future, or that the idea of a better future is a lie. The idea of a "more evolved" humanity that has no interpersonal conflict is a lie, yes -- a lie Gene Roddenberry embraced in his later years, I suspect, as a manifestation of his own desire to avoid confronting and taking responsibility for his flaws as a human being in real life, IMO. But! That doesn't mean that the hope for something better is inherently a lie.

One of the reasons I cited Chief O'Brien is that, while he reaches his full potential as a character on DS9, the building blocks for who he is were established by TNG in "The Wounded." He's a damaged guy, and he's got a very serious flaw in his own bigotry against Cardassians. But he also knows that that part of him isn't good, and he genuinely tries to fight it, and he makes sure that someone else he cares about who also carries that pain and that anger doesn't end up starting another war because of it. It's one of my absolute favorite episodes of TNG, because it synthesizes TNG's optimism with a more realistic depiction of what people are really like.

So it is with PIC. Jean-Luc is a flawed man, yes! He was screwed over by his government, but his pain and shame at failing to achieve the goal he knew he could never achieve without Starfleet support, led him to withdraw from the world and hide for 14 years. He abandoned people who loved him because he was so ashamed of his failure. That's a pretty serious flaw... But he realizes how large a mistake he had made. And he gets out there, and he finds out how to protect the innocent person he knows needs his help, and in doing so he builds a new "found family" of broken people who start to heal.

You are absolutely right to say that the Zhat Vash have a point! They are acting out of a sincere desire to save all organic life in the Milky Way Galaxy from a threat they genuinely believe to be existential to everyone. They're not acting out of malice, or even out of Romulan nationalism. And the Synths did indeed choose to become hostile and dangerous at one point!

But, there again, those Synths had a point! The Zhat Vash had been attempting to genocide their kind for centuries. Even the Federation itself, seemingly the most liberal of the major galactic powers, had had a history of refusing to see sentient artificial intelligences as sentient even before the Federation banned androids and synths after the Mars Attack. And now here the Zhat Vash are, pounding on their doors, hunting them down after murdering their fellows, and there's this vaunted Federation that had been keeping sentient A.I. slaves just twenty-four years ago and had banned their people. And on world after world, they were keenly aware that synthetic life was exploited for free labor (though they did not probably want to see the difference between exploiting a non-sentient machine and a sentient synth). So, yeah, between all that, and the simple fact that, as Picard notes, their minds are not fully formed and are in some respects more like the minds of children than adults? Yeah, I can totally understand why the Coppelius Synths might feel as though summoning the Admonition Makers is the only way they can ever be safe from genocide!

That's one of the things I really love about Star Trek: Picard -- nobody is truly evil in this show. They have conflicting political agendas because they're all driven by this totally understandable fear of annihilation and genocide. And Picard and the Federation find their redemption from their past sins, by being willing to sacrifice -- to put their lives on the line to stop a genocide, to prove to the Synths that organics can live with them side-by-side as equals, that they can set fear aside and start to build a better future as neighbors. And even in their righteous anger at the Zhat Vash for orchestrating the Mars Attack, Picard and the Federation recognize that peace is better than war -- they get the Zhat Vash to leave without a war breaking out, and they seem to draw a meaningful distinction between different Romulan factions instead of essentializing all of them and blaming all Romulans for the Zhat Vash's actions.

I really do think that Star Trek: Picard preserves Star Trek's optimism in this way. Yes, it takes a long detour into darkness, and, yes, I think it is a more honest portrayal of what Starfleet and the Federation are like. We see them struggle with their fears, their flaws, their limitations. But we also see them find the best in themselves and transcend their flaws, and doing so brings new hope for the future -- symbolized by Picard finding new life as a synthetic lifeform himself.

Anyway, like I said, I'm sorry if I seem just hopelessly contrarian here. I think Star Trek encompasses "both Superman and Batman," so to speak, but I also think Star Trek reaffirms the value of Superman even as it indulges in a lot of Batman. Which, to me, is the perfect kind of Star Trek story -- one that begins in darkness and ends in light.
 
This sounds so wrong, but I actually found it funny when she did that. She straights up lies to Picard about not seeking revenge, and then beams down and blows everyone away because she knew she was going to do it anyway.

I don't know if it was for shock value or if the producers intended to do it that way. Besides the fact, that we saw what Bjayzel did in gory detail. It's too late. We sympathize with Seven already.



I was going to bring that one up after seeing this discussion too.

There was a scene where Picard argued that it had just as a much a right to exist as they did. Then he used the sperm whale eating millions of fish a day as an analogy.

But when he did that, he lost me. The problem is, we've seen too much of the mom's point of view already. It's hard not to sympathize with her, besides the threat it posed to other innocent life forms. And in a way, he reduced people to cuttlefish and somewhat implied that like cuttlefish, they weren't worth seeking revenge over.

The show itself made it look like Picard was right and the mom was wrong, but I think it was tone deaf on this one. Probably most of the viewers agreed with the mom.

I'm still trying to figure TNG out. At its height, its moral concepts and behaviors seem so advanced. In retrospect, now I wonder how realistic it is.

Like the value of sentient life must take a backseat to certain things like the Prime Directive, or punishing fugitives etc. Sometimes, I think by the time of TNG, they went through so many Redshirts on an almost weekly basis, that the value of sentient life had become a blurr.

I think that script wise, what Seven did might have been a minor dig at TNG's concepts.

The crystalline entity may not have known humans were sentient. That's what Picard was talking about. It was a alien lifeform that was feeding. It might not have been able to process that humans were not just edible snacks but sentient and intelligent. Once they were able to communicate Picard wanted to see if they could talk to it. Their we're episodes were Starfleet was in the position of the crystalline entity and accidentally killed a species they thought was in sentient. Starfleet was forgiven in those instances instead of outright destroyed. Picard wanted to give the entity a chance to communicate and explain. If the entity would have kept destroying after that then yeah it would have had to been destroyed. As for the grieving mother I felt bad for her. She really shouldn't have been chosen for the job in the first place.
 
The crystalline entity may not have known humans were sentient. That's what Picard was talking about. It was a alien lifeform that was feeding. It might not have been able to process that humans were not just edible snacks but sentient and intelligent. Once they were able to communicate Picard wanted to see if they could talk to it. Their we're episodes were Starfleet was in the position of the crystalline entity and accidentally killed a species they thought was in sentient. Starfleet was forgiven in those instances instead of outright destroyed. Picard wanted to give the entity a chance to communicate and explain. If the entity would have kept destroying after that then yeah it would have had to been destroyed. As for the grieving mother I felt bad for her. She really shouldn't have been chosen for the job in the first place.

That's a pretty good point about Picard or humans accidentally killing other lifeforms without realizing they were sentient and getting off the hook. They were in a similar position. It happened in TOS too. There's no real counter to that argument either.

One problem is that earlier, Lore was shown communicating with it and telling it to wait until the Enterprise drops its shields so it could attack them. And that it previously gave Lore some type of reward for doing things like that. It implies intelligence and conspiring.

That could still mean it didn't know what it was doing was wrong, but either way, the results are the same.

But even still, I think the real problem is we just see too much of the mother's point of view. That was her son that was killed while she was away and never got to see again. On the other hand, Picard's moral stance, comes off as tone deaf in this instance.

When he used the Sperm Whale eating tons of cuttlefish example, I think that might have been the worst example to give to someone like her. Because now that implied her son, the colonists, and all the other victims, were not much different than a cuttlefish, that is used as feed for a bigger life form, and that's that.

That was only going to guarantee that she was going do whatever it took to destroy it. I think probably most of viewers watching it at the time agreed with her, even though the episode was clearly backing Picard and his stance. It even had Data telling her that her son would not have approved of what she did. "Revenge is wrong".

It was not intentional, but it just had a way of making life look too cheap. Trek took a strange turn from 'capital punishment for any crime is wrong', to 'seeking revenge for a wrongdoing is wrong and backwards".

I suspect Seven doing what she did was to subvert the "revenge is wrong" ideology of TNG. She even said she didn't wont to bother arguing with him about revenge and mercy and such.
 
Deep Space Nine demonstrated perfectly that you could muddy it up, give it rougher edges, be less perfect yet still deliver a highly entertaining and uplifting show. It’s hard to rationalise, I admit, that a show ravaged by a devastating war could still ultimately be a positive show. But I think that was because at its heart its characters were good

I gotta disagree with this assessment. I *don't* think the DS9 main characters were good people. At least, some of them weren't. I think what Sisko did in In The Pale Moonlight was unforgivable. That's just my opinion. He's a monster. I don't believe that it was necessary for him to do what he did so that the Federation could win the war. I also think Jadzia Dax wasn't such a great person either. Michael Eddington was RIGHT about people like Sisko and Jadzia Dax. I can imagine Q being validated in his claims that humanity was a "dangerous, savage, child race" with what Sisko and Starfleet did during that war. I know that Picard would have never gone through such lows to try to win the war. He would've found another way. Why? Cause Picard is a good man. Sisko is not.

Just my $.02.
 
I suspect Seven doing what she did was to subvert the "revenge is wrong" ideology of TNG. She even said she didn't wont to bother arguing with him about revenge and mercy and such.

I mean, in fairness, Seven actually says that she didn't tell Picard what she was going to do because she didn't want to rob him of his faith in the decency of sentient lifeforms. (And, I suspect, because she didn't want Picard to be ashamed of her.)

I gotta disagree with this assessment. I *don't* think the DS9 main characters were good people. At least, some of them weren't. I think what Sisko did in In The Pale Moonlight was unforgivable. That's just my opinion. He's a monster. I don't believe that it was necessary for him to do what he did so that the Federation could win the war. I also think Jadzia Dax wasn't such a great person either. Michael Eddington was RIGHT about people like Sisko and Jadzia Dax. I can imagine Q being validated in his claims that humanity was a "dangerous, savage, child race" with what Sisko and Starfleet did during that war. I know that Picard would have never gone through such lows to try to win the war. He would've found another way. Why? Cause Picard is a good man. Sisko is not.

Just my $.02.

I totally disagree with you about Sisko and Jadzia -- BUT I totally agree with you that DS9 does not as a narrative try to present those characters as moral paragons whom we the audience should necessarily emulate. DS9 makes it very clear that these are people who do bad things sometimes. Just like PIC.
 
It even had Data telling her that her son would not have approved of what she did. "Revenge is wrong".
Even that did not make sense for me. Data did not know her son, being able to recite his dairies was not insight into the son's complete opinion. The scriptwriters were trying to make the mother look like she was totally in the wrong, instead Picard and Data came across as heartless.

I know that Picard would have never gone through such lows to try to win the war. He would've found another way. Why? Cause Picard is a good man. Sisko is not.
Which is probably why the Enterprise was never shown fighting the Dominion. If Picard was in charge, the Dominion would have taken over the Alpha and Beta quadrants, the wormhole aliens would not have destroyed the Dominion forces for him, since he would probably refuse to engage with the aliens and refuse the title Picard of Bajor. The Romulans would have made a non agression pact with the Dominion, who after defeating the UFP and the Klingon empire would turn around and turn the Romulans into a puppet state, along with Bajor.
I guess compared to Picard, Kirk is also the devil incarnate. Sisko destroyed a planet, Picard was more than happy to destroy a race of people... twice. What was so good about that?
Picard is no paragon of virtue. He just thinks he is.
 
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Which is probably why the Enterprise was never shown fighting the Dominion, if Picard was in charge the Dominion would have taken over the Alpha and Beta quadrants, the wormhole aliens would not have destroyed the Dominion forces for him since he would probably refuse to engage with the aliens. The Romulans would have made a non agression Pact with the Dominion who after defeating the UFP and the Klingon empire would turn round and turn the Romulans into a puppet state along with Bajor.
I guess compared to Picard, Kirk is also the devil incarnate.

I don't agree. I think Sisko gave up too easily. I think Picard would've saved as many lives as Sisko without compromising his integrity.
 
I now kind of want to see an alternate universe where Picard led the Enterprise-E to Cardassia to give one of his trademark speeches in an attempt to convince the Female Founder that we could live together in peace, etc... only for the Jem'Hadar to ram the Enterprise with extreme prejudice in exactly the same way they did with the Odyssey, before he even managed to cross the DMZ.

Or maybe one where he went to Romulus himself to try and reason with them through channels provided by Spock, only to have the Tal-Shiar, having learned from Unification, unceremoniously capture them both and give them to the Dominion as a peace offering.
 
I now kind of want to see an alternate universe where Picard led the Enterprise-E to Cardassia to give one of his trademark speeches in an attempt to convince the Female Founder that we could live together in peace, etc... only for the Jem'Hadar to ram the Enterprise with extreme prejudice in exactly the same way they did with the Odyssey, before he even managed to cross the DMZ.

Or maybe one where he went to Romulus himself to try and reason with them through channels provided by Spock, only to have the Tal-Shiar, having learned from Unification, unceremoniously capture them both and give them to the Dominion as a peace offering.
Sounds like an interesting Myriad universe novel. I would read it!
I can see why Sir Patrick did not want to be part of a TNG Part II, the Picard character needed his 'righteous' feet of clay exposed.
 
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I don't agree. I think Sisko gave up too easily. I think Picard would've saved as many lives as Sisko without compromising his integrity.

True, but only because TNG-era Picard had writers and showrunners who would have, um, made it so.
 
Even that did not make sense for me. Data did not know her son, being able to recite his dairies was not insight into the son's complete opinion. The scriptwriters were trying to make the mother look like she was totally in the wrong, instead Picard and Data came across as heartless.

It was trying to lead the viewers and I think it had the opposite effect.

I remember watching the Data scene for the first time and thought the same thing. How could Data know if all he had were second hand journals of him in his head?

I could understand Trek's position on capital punishment but then it went into the 'revenge is wrong, period' stance. Even with the loss of catastrophic life.

I mean, Picard shouldn't be blood thirsty and foaming at the mouth to hunt it down, but he compared the victims to cuttlefish, and seemed more enthusiastic about communicating with it, than understanding how upset the mother was.


I don't agree. I think Sisko gave up too easily. I think Picard would've saved as many lives as Sisko without compromising his integrity.

Picard would have saved as many lives as the script dictated lol
However in universe, how many lives was Picard willing to save without being forced to on Penpals and Homeward Bound? Answer ...None

I think the problem would have been solved before Picard would have to think of doing anything drastic. The Klingon civil war could have lasted months and become messier and messier.

But it was wrapped up after one episode. Pretty neatly. Worf got his honor back, returned to the Enterprise, the bad guys are defeated and went away, and technobabble saved the day.

With Sisko, it was case of the Federation doing the best they could and still wind up losing. It opened up an interesting character situation we never really saw before.
 
With Sisko, it was case of the Federation doing the best they could and still wind up losing. It opened up an interesting character situation we never really saw before.
DS9 was also willing to extend the conflict along than before. There was not a neat and tidy wrap up, and even the war ended on a very somber note, with Ross and Sisko not wanting to share a drink with Martok.

I think comparing Sisko and Picard is difficult because Sisko is a part of a post-Wolf 359 Federation where things are not so safe, not so secure, and a lot more dangerous. Sisko handles things much differently than Picard because he sees the universe as a far more dangerous place.

Now, I think that Picard would have handled the Dominion War differently than Sisko but I doubt it would have been perfect. I think the Dominion War illustrated a lot of cracks that the Federation wasn't aware of.
 
I think the Dominion War illustrated a lot of cracks that the Federation wasn't aware of.
Perhaps next time the UFP will perform better reconnaisance when it wants to stick its flag in someone else's area. The constant urge to colonise planets when the colonies they already claim only have twenty people on them is batshit crazy.
 
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Federation planners probably played too many 4x games. If you don't grab territory in the early game, you'll never survive.
 
Perhaps next time the UFP will perform better reconnaisance when it wants to stick its flag in someone else's area. The constant urge to colonise planets when the colonies they already have only have twenty people on them is batshit crazy.

I've been rewatching DS9 S1 and S2 recently. As I recall, the Federation didn't have any colonies in the Gamma Quadrant. Bajor had just established the New Bajor colony there, not the UFP. They were still just going about, exploring, opening up diplomatic and trade relationships, etc.
 
I gotta disagree with this assessment. I *don't* think the DS9 main characters were good people. At least, some of them weren't. I think what Sisko did in In The Pale Moonlight was unforgivable. That's just my opinion. He's a monster. I don't believe that it was necessary for him to do what he did so that the Federation could win the war. I also think Jadzia Dax wasn't such a great person either. Michael Eddington was RIGHT about people like Sisko and Jadzia Dax. I can imagine Q being validated in his claims that humanity was a "dangerous, savage, child race" with what Sisko and Starfleet did during that war. I know that Picard would have never gone through such lows to try to win the war. He would've found another way. Why? Cause Picard is a good man. Sisko is not.

Just my $.02.
There was no other way. That was the whole point. When your back is against the wall and your only choices are surrender or cheat, what choice would you make? Picard would rather lose the war than compromise his own morality code. Sisko wouldn't. He made that perfectly clear when Bashir suggested that Starfleet surrender to avoid further bloodshed. That's why to me he was far more believable as a character than Picard ever was.
 
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