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Picard Season one.... I miss Star Trek

Seven kills her straight up for revenge. It wasnt about the logistics or difficulty in bringing her to justice it was simply she wanted to kill this person and wanted to bring up Icheb before doing it. Q would destroy humanity if they devolved into that again.

In a hero example Batman doesnt just kill the Joker even though he cant keep him locked up. Punisher on the other hand goes around killing and he definitely does wrong things.
Seven is not a hero. She is not Batman. She is a person experiencing deeply personal pain and reacting as such.

People are welcome to question it all they want. However, what I have yet to hear is the actually, viable, alternatives to what Seven did. Bring her to justice? Under what jurisdiction? Capture her? And risk dying herself. Perhaps that would be preferred since martyrdom is seen as more acceptable. One death for another. Seems reasonable...:shifty:

Right now, all I see is a lot of moral grandstanding without any other suggestions or alternatives. There is no acknowledgement that what Bjayzel was doing was horrific, to the point that people have sworn off Picard altogether. No, we don't question it. Killing is wrong-a most surface level read at best.

ETA:
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"The Klingon....one of us must get him."
"Revenge, Captain?"
"Why not?"
 
Seven kills her straight up for revenge. It wasnt about the logistics or difficulty in bringing her to justice it was simply she wanted to kill this person and wanted to bring up Icheb before doing it. Q would destroy humanity if they devolved into that again.

In a hero example Batman doesnt just kill the Joker even though he cant keep him locked up. Punisher on the other hand goes around killing and he definitely does wrong things.
Again, as both fireproof and I had asked, what were her viable options, oh paragon of moral virtue?
 
It shouldn't be this hard to imagine an alternative to eye-for-an-eye revenge killing, no Icheb pun intended.

Actually I think there's a bunch of Trek to refer back to on the subject where the do the right thing instead of the most practical thing. Even the end of Picard where they dont wipe out organics because they "had no other alternatives."
 
It shouldn't be this hard to imagine an alternative to eye-for-an-eye revenge killing, no Icheb pun intended.

Actually I think there's a bunch of Trek to refer back to on the subject where the do the right thing instead of the most practical thing. Even the end of Picard where they dont wipe out organics because they "had no other alternatives."
Viable alternatives is the key phrase here. What justice or jurisdiction is presented in the episode?

In addition, how many lives would be lost if she is allowed to continue?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
 
Star Trek: Picard is not a series interested in the familiar, and frankly childishly-written, paradigm of characters who always do the right thing in the end. It presents us with characters who are morally compromised, who are traumatized, who do not always have enough social or literal power to do the right thing, and who sometimes do things that are awful or questionable. Simply put, this is not Star Trek: The Next Generation, where Picard gives a speech about how he's so morally superior and puts foolish aliens in their place before warping off to the next adventure.

It is also not a show interested in the trite idea that life is pain, that grimdark=superior, or that there's no such thing as good and evil. Simply put, this is not Battlestar Galactica, where the pain and trauma and moral compromise are so foundational that the series ends by concluding that society literally has to be dissolved.

Star Trek: Picard is a show where fucked-up people are doing their best, and sometimes they're wrong, but where they are on balance making the world a better place in spite of their flaws. Yeah, Seven kills Bjayzel. She does so in the context of Bjayzel living in a society without the rule of law, engaging in a science-fictional equivalent of human trafficking and ongoing slow-mo genocide against XBs -- so, you'll forgive me, but I'm not entirely persuaded that it's immoral to kill war criminals if there is no rule of law.

She also saves Elnor and the crew of La Sirena and thereby helps save the galaxy from the Admonition Makers, and she's dedicated her entire life to bringing stability to a region of space forsaken by the Federation.

She is, in other words, more complicated than just being good or bad. This is a show that is written for adults, not for children who need rudimentary morality lessons.
 
There isn't much of a point to come up with an alternative story where she doesn't murder the bad guy if you cant see that for yourselves. Maybe start it off with two words: stun setting. Then maybe start thinking of how there's an entire group of XB's who should have a say in it other than her.

As far as this being more "adult" than the old shows, The Lon Suder incident had more complexity than this show went into here. This here was just meant to be a bad ass moment and they barely bring it up again. That's fine but at least recognize this character didnt really do a good thing here, its questionable at best.
 
There isn't much of a point to come up with an alternative story where she doesn't murder the bad guy if you cant see that for yourselves. Maybe start it off with two words: stun setting.

The stun setting does not solve the fundamental problem about how to bring a war criminal to justice when there is no rule of law.

Then maybe start thinking of how there's an entire group of XB's who should have a say in it other than her.

Maybe! Seven's choice isn't necessarily supposed to be "good" either, and the possibility that there are XBs who don't want Bjayzel killed is an entirely fair point!

As far as this being more "adult" than the old shows, The Lon Suder incident had more complexity than this show went into here. This here was just meant to be a bad ass moment and they barely bring it up again.

If you do not see how the entire episode was constructed to explore Seven's rage, pain, and shame over her decision to kill Bjayzel, then you were not making a real effort to engage with the show on its own terms. If you do not see how she carried terrible guilt over her actions in subsequent episodes, you were not making a serious effort to engage with the show on its own terms.

That's fine but at least recognize this character didnt really do a good thing here, its questionable at best.

Of course it is! She killed a woman without charge or trial. She appointed herself judge, jury, and executioner.

On the other hand -- I'm sorry, but in environments where there is no law and where the resources to establish any sort of criminal justice, imprisonment, or rehabilitation system do not exist, I'm honestly not sure that killing her is wrong, either.

"Stardust City Rag" -- and indeed, Star Trek: Picard in general -- is more complex than just "thing good" or "thing bad."
 
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That's fine but at least recognize this character didnt really do a good thing here, its questionable at best.
Because it isn't about "good" or "bad." That's the whole point. There is context, complexity and nuance, including within the characters, that doesn't allow clear delineation. Context is important, characters are important, and their relationships are important.

All of which is being ignored at this point in favor of a very black and white interpretation. Which, is fine, if that's what is desired from Star Trek. But, I think the writers were going for more.

What I like about "Stardust City Rag" is that it lives up to the pitch of a "space western".
Exactly. This is classic standoff between the characters and one ends up shot.
 
Look I loved this show, but this is not some complex choice full of character depth that it's being made out to be here. It's just a bad ass hero moment that doesnt hold up all that much when you think about it. Revenge motive setup in the intro and revenge executed, then one scene of moody Seven drinking with Rios about it. The show is kind of shallow itself about it and that's OK. This whole conversation is probably overthinking it to be honest.

The rule of law thing... Seven should know a bit about keeping rule of law where there is none from her time on Voyager. They had to establish their procedures and enforce own rule of law by themselves. And it usually didn't include shooting the problem to death. What we have is not more complex than that situation in my opinion.
 
Look I loved this show, but this is not some complex choice full of character depth that it's being made out to be here. It's just a bad ass hero moment that doesnt hold up all that much when you think about it. Revenge motive setup in the intro and revenge executed, then one scene of moody Seven drinking with Rios about it. The show is kind of shallow itself about it and that's OK. This whole conversation is probably overthinking it to be honest.

The rule of law thing... Seven should know a bit about keeping rule of law where there is none from her time on Voyager. They had to establish their procedures and enforce own rule of law by themselves. And it usually didn't include shooting the problem to death. What we have is not more complex than that situation in my opinion.
If it felt like a bad ass hero moment then I would agree. I don't get that feel from it. Yes, it has that action hero setting, but I differentiate it from bad ass hero. Because, it smacks of tragedy as Seven does what she feels she must do.

And, I don't see Seven as the rule of law in the lawless regions in the Delta Quadrant. She still had Janeway. She doesn't have Janeway, or the order that was Voyager in this place. And all of that is by her own choice. And that's the character moment and tragedy.

As for overthinking it- Welcome to Star Trek.
 
Look I loved this show, but this is not some complex choice full of character depth that it's being made out to be here.

Yes, it is. You just didn't engage with the material on its own terms and are therefore denying the implications of the text and the subtext. Any work of art can be made to seem shallow if the viewer chooses not to actually engage with it.

The rule of law thing... Seven should know a bit about keeping rule of law where there is none from her time on Voyager. They had to establish their procedures and enforce own rule of law by themselves.

That's actually a prime example: The starship Voyager was so powerful that it was essentially a miniature state in its own right, and that means that the characters on VOY didn't usually have to make choices about how to operate in an environment without the rule of law. Like, we literally saw Janeway conducting hearings and courts-martial.

On the occasions that the USS Voyager was not powerful enough to essentially operate as a miniature mobile state in its own right and had to contend with more-powerful alien states? Then the crew had to resort to violence to project themselves, or to establish some form of justice.

If Seven had access to a Federation starship or starships capable of enforcing the rule of law across the region of space in which Bjayzel and her syndicate operates, that would be a fundamentally different moral question.

And it usually didn't include shooting the problem to death.

It often involved shooting the problem to death. How many times did Voyager come across alien space too big to go around and shoot its way through? Hell, Janeway herself killed Tuvix. And establishing the rule of law inherently means relying upon granting a monopoly on the use of violence by the state to enforce the law.
 
Yes, it is. You just didn't engage with the material on its own terms and are therefore denying the implications of the text and the subtext. Any work of art can be made to seem shallow if the viewer chooses not to actually engage with it.

Couldnt you say the same about any shallow story? Sometimes there's just not much to engage with.

Somebody stole Neelix's lungs and Janeway let them off the hook. Lon Suder wasnt executed. They didnt execute unarmed people, other than Tuvix which was explored pretty well and subject to huge debate to this day.

Batman (1989) was essentially a revenge film, Bruce Wayne dressing up and killing the guy who murdered his parents.

True he straight up killed Joker in that one. Also he kicked a guy off the bell tower. I was more thinking of the Nolan batman. But I love 89 Batman as well
 
Somebody stole Neelix's lungs and Janeway let them off the hook. Lon Suder wasnt executed. They didnt execute unarmed people, other than Tuvix which was explored pretty well and subject to huge debate to this day.
Context is key though. Was Voyager to fight the entire Vidiian race?

Seven was not in Federation space, not dealing with a Federation citizen, with no jurisdiction or higher power to refer to. She has a known murderer captured, with limited options to stop her from murdering again.

It's nice that we can debate this at length but it also ignores the emotions in the moment. Context is so important and is being ignored at every turn.
 
There isn't much of a point to come up with an alternative story where she doesn't murder the bad guy if you cant see that for yourselves. Maybe start it off with two words: stun setting. Then maybe start thinking of how there's an entire group of XB's who should have a say in it other than her..

Protip: "I'm not going to actually try to make my case because you guys are too dense to appreciate it" is a form of argument that pops up all the time on the internet. It has never worked.
 
Protip: "I'm not going to actually try to make my case because you guys are too dense to appreciate it" is a form of argument that pops up all the time on the internet. It has never worked.

If you're going to take it that way then you might as well point out the same thing used against my opinion a few posts back. I get it, an opposing or negative view is not welcomed I will take that cue.

I've been in 80 page Jellico debates that were more respectful than this one.
 
Protip: "I'm not going to actually try to make my case because you guys are too dense to appreciate it" is a form of argument that pops up all the time on the internet. It has never worked.

If you're going to take it that way then you might as well point out the same thing used against my opinion a few posts back. I get it, an opposing or negative view is not welcomed I will take that cue.

I've been in 80 page Jellico debates that were more respectful than this one.
Less kicking and scratching, please.
 
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