Spoilers Picard News & Reviews from Outside Sources

[Mark 2000]

Well, that's just something I wanted to get off my chest, besides being a partial justification for why I'm not interested in sitting through his Picard review.

I'm not going to disagree with anything you've said here. I'm mostly done with doughy white guys telling me what's best in life, especially genre fiction. Even their review of The Force Awakens was poisoned with a lot of stupid talk about "tokenism" and "diversity for the sake of it". But the thing with Picard is that it seems tailor made for doughy white guys. It's an obvious reaction to Discovery, putting an old white man back in the center seat. It plays heavily on nostalgia. It's got a ton of female authority figures set up as effigies for the audience to throw rocks at. The black body count is off the charts and the racial undertones for both the Romulans and the Androids are ham fisted and wrong headed. And yet RLM skewered it because it is still objectively bad.

I also agree that RLM likes to boost older material they've previous shat on to gold. They hated Nemesis, ENT, and DS9 and yet they were examples of good Trek in the Picard review. I don't buy that as anything but "good old days" rhetoric.

 

[Phily B]

Is that an 'official' subreddit, or a fan ran one?

It's a fan one. And one of the top rated posts was whining about how the Star Trek subreddit doesn't have a topic about the Plinkett review.

 

[The Old Mixer]

This new thread has the disadvantage of not having an opening post stating its purpose, as even I can't violate the Temporal Prime Directive.

And...sneaky mod workaround found and utilized.

 

[Tuskin38]

And...sneaky mod workaround found and utilized.

Witchcraft!

 

[EnderAKH]

Witchcraft!

Time Lord.

 

[fireproof78]

Time Lord.

Time Lord AND witchcraft.

 

[The Old Mixer]

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[Imaus]

I've avoided RedLetterMedia's reviews of Picard and Discovery like the plague COVID-19 because I knew it was going to be Mike and Rich complaining like crotchety old men the whole time. I still think a lot of their shtick can be amusing, mainly when they're making fun of bad B-movies and weird old VHS tapes, and they've proven they can be insightful, but their brand of smirking cynicism gets kind of wearying.

I think I started to really grow disenchanted with RLM around the time "Mr. Plinkett" did his review of The Last Jedi. By that time, much of Star Wars fandom had gotten so toxic, I found it irresponsible on his part to stoke the fires of outrage over that franchise while not taking time to condemn the sort of people who bullied Kelly Marie Tran off of social media, etc. I'd go so far as to say that skirting the topic is practically tantamount to a tacit endorsement of that kind of behavior. Maybe they're not consciously pandering to those types of fans the way certain other YouTube channels are, but it seems to me like they're the one group that RLM goes out of its way to avoid offending. The most charitable (but still not that great) explanation I have for why that is is that they're too scared to piss off a large chunk of their audience. My opinion of Mike wasn't helped when he described TLJ as being about "a woke lady with pink hair who teaches us that men are wrong about everything." Maybe he was being tongue-in-cheek or maybe he was letting his true feelings out a little bit; it wasn't clear.

Well, that's just something I wanted to get off my chest, besides being a partial justification for why I'm not interested in sitting through his Picard review.

Since this thread has already seemingly died down due to a lukewarm response to Plinkett the ancient I'll like to expand on this, because it is interesting. While I do generally agree with what they say, what they leave out is also important. Did they not want to be seen as needlessly 'dramatic' or 'nitpicky' by going beyond the 'meat' of the matter, or did they just not care?

 

[Lord Garth]

I think too much attention has been given to Mr. Plinkett. The character looks like a gross, unhygienic slob. Which is made even worse when you consider this might be RLM's idea of what this type of person might look like.

On top of that:

I think I started to really grow disenchanted with RLM around the time "Mr. Plinkett" did his review of The Last Jedi. By that time, much of Star Wars fandom had gotten so toxic, I found it irresponsible on his part to stoke the fires of outrage over that franchise while not taking time to condemn the sort of people who bullied Kelly Marie Tran off of social media, etc. I'd go so far as to say that skirting the topic is practically tantamount to a tacit endorsement of that kind of behavior. Maybe they're not consciously pandering to those types of fans the way certain other YouTube channels are, but it seems to me like they're the one group that RLM goes out of its way to avoid offending.

This is also disgusting. I can't abide this type of mentality.

Change of subject to another YouTube Video:

Here's a YouTube video where Steve Shives wonders, "Is Starfleet Actually the Bad Guy?" The idea of the Federation and Starfleet not being flawlessly ethical as an institution is an idea that existed long before PIC, despite people who like to think otherwise.

In the video, Shives cites examples from "Journey's End" (TNG) and Star Trek: Insurrection. One involves the inhabitants of Dorvan V almost being forcibly relocated to satisfy a treaty between the Federation and the Cardassians. The other involves almost forcibly relocating the Baku solely so the Federation can gain a tactical advantage against is enemies. You'll note that he doesn't touch DS9 at all when he cites his examples.

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The Federation itself has never been as virtuous as the characters who are the main focuses of the various series.

 

[Rahul]

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While I find myself regularly disagreeing with RLM on various things - I'm a big fan of them!

As for this review: It's fine.

I think the first season of PIC is bolloks - it's less than the sum of its (sometimes excellent!) parts. The reason is - the main story just doesn't make any sense and is pretty stupid. Sadly - this diminishes a lot of the other stuff - the character work, the acting, the writing, the production - which are generally all very great. I think a lot of the other issues (say the egregious violence) would be easily overlooked/forgiven if the main part was loved.

The RLM review has the problem of retreating ground fast - the main plot doesn't make a lot of sense, everything suffers from that, and then it repeats itself, by showing other parts of the main plot that don't work...

There's one bright side though:
PIC still had enormous potential. Much like early ENT - all the ingredients are there and set up. They just need to get their shit together - and then this series can easily become a beloved part of the Trek cosmos! One that struggled in the beginning - like all the other Trek shows since TOS.

 

[fireproof78]

In the video, Shives cites examples from "Journey's End" (TNG) and Star Trek: Insurrection. One involves the inhabitants of Dorvan V almost being forcibly relocated to satisfy a treaty between the Federation and the Cardassians. The other involves almost forcibly relocating the Baku solely so the Federation can gain a tactical advantage against is enemies. You'll note that he doesn't touch DS9 at all when he cites his examples.

I just watched it as well. And, while I don't think the Federation is the bad guys I completely agree that the Federation is not the paragon of virtue that often claimed when annoyed with Picard's portrayal.

I appreciate Shives video

 

[Tuskin38]

Huh I’d been avoiding that starfleet video because I thought it was click bait or something. But since I trust some people’s opinions here I watched it, it’s quite good.

You'll note that he doesn't touch DS9 at all when he cites his examples.

He does bring up DS9, and how Journey's End leads to the Maquis in DS9.

 

[Qonundrum]

I'm not going to disagree with anything you've said here. I'm mostly done with doughy white guys telling me what's best in life, especially genre fiction. Even their review of The Force Awakens was poisoned with a lot of stupid talk about "tokenism" and "diversity for the sake of it". But the thing with Picard is that it seems tailor made for doughy white guys. It's an obvious reaction to Discovery, putting an old white man back in the center seat. It plays heavily on nostalgia. It's got a ton of female authority figures set up as effigies for the audience to throw rocks at. The black body count is off the charts and the racial undertones for both the Romulans and the Androids are ham fisted and wrong headed. And yet RLM skewered it because it is still objectively bad.

I also agree that RLM likes to boost older material they've previous shat on to gold. They hated Nemesis, ENT, and DS9 and yet they were examples of good Trek in the Picard review. I don't buy that as anything but "good old days" rhetoric.

Agreed, PIC is playing for the nostalgia factor. Despite its makers saying it's not a sequel (I won't put out the same article I did dozen times already...)

Nice to read someone pointing out the twists with the race and gender baiting. A lot of YT channels either don't take it into account or aren't aware.

RLM has been consistent in railing on plot issues as well, for old and new - but the day they rail on TSFS and TWOK I will be happy. They know not all Trek prior to 2009 was picture perfect panaceas. Ditto for Honest Trailers and CinemaSins (and TV Sins). Now, some YT channels are just one-sided nonsense that shows they've not seen any of the older material recently and are applying their own rose-tinted nostalgia to it. Even misconstruing and adding details into their rants that were not even discussed in the older shows they're using as props to rail the new stuff with. They might not have seen every last episode, or how fads and trends are not new (or we forget about those).

That reminds me, given the crudity of Plinkett reviews is it possible those are a possible influence given Plinkett's possibility? Can styles be copied over like mere tracing paper templates or is there something else that generates the "cool" factor for an audience?

But did RLM really boost NEM, et al? I don't recall seeing anything outright though I'll give their PIC review a re-viewing, I may have missed something... or if there's a relative scale where most Trek is 9 or 10 and PIC is 0, NEM might be a 1 or 2 as a result. Is that "boosting" as such, to elevate it to a higher degree? Then again, I remember more good scenes in PIC than I did in NEM -- and PIC didn't, as far as I know, lift lines directly from TWOK or TSFS to coast through a scene (not to mention NEM had four years; lifting dialogue like that often indicates a time crunch...) All things considered, I'd rather see attempted innovation from other tropes and franchises than just lifting dialogue from the same one.

 

[Lord Garth]

Huh I’d been avoiding that starfleet video because I thought it was click bait or something. But since I trust some people’s opinions here I watched it, it’s quite good.


He does bring up DS9, and how Journey's End leads to the Maquis in DS9.

Yes, but the specific episode he talks about to make his point is "Journey's End".

And if someone at the time didn't watch DS9, "Preemptive Strike" would've filled them in enough about the what the Maquis were, so they could get by if they'd stuck with TNG.

 

[Lord Garth]

One thing I'm surprised about is that he didn't bring up "Descent, Part I" when Nacheyev orders Picard in no uncertain terms to take advantage of the situation the next time he has a chance to destroy the Borg. He tersely says, "Yes, sir," she leaves and that's the end of it. As far as she's concerned. He doesn't like it, but he discusses with Riker when he let Hugh return to the Borg in "I, Borg" without the virus that would've destroyed them. Riker says, "You did the moral thing." Then Picard says -- and this stuck out to me even in 1993 -- "Maybe the moral thing to do, but not the right thing to do." 1993 and this made me take notice.

"Descent, Part II" goes on to prove the right thing to do and the moral thing to do were one and the same. Hugh and his brethren are fully-realized individuals. But they also throw in this bit of dialogue where Hugh says they can't return to the Collective. Letting us know that the Borg Borg, the "Resistance Is Futile" Borg, are still out there. And that the Collective would've cut that Cube off no matter what. Either because they want to isolate and quarantine individuality or a virus. To them, individuality is probably just like a virus. "Can't let it spread!"

In the end: Picard's integrity is intact, but the Starfleet Command that Admiral Nacheyev represents wouldn't be out of place in DSC or PIC.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yeah I brought up Decent in the comments. Also that the federation used the Changeling virus cure as leverage for peace, instead of offering it freely as a humanitarian gesture.

 

[fireproof78]

In the end: Picard's integrity is intact, but the Starfleet Command that Admiral Nacheyev represents wouldn't be out of place in DSC or PIC.

No, it would not be. I think most of the admirals from past Treks would fit just fine in DSC and vice versa.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

And didn't Janeway, in the finale, infect the Borg with a pathogen that was supposed to wipe them out? Even if the Admiral carried it out, Janeway agreed to it.

 

[Gaith]

I greatly enjoyed Mike and Rich's first few RLM Re:View discussions of Picard episodes, though the last two ran out of steam as they mainly kept repeating themselves. The Plinkett review of the whole season, however, I was disappointed by. Yes, the overall narrative of S1 is an utter mess, but, unlike previous Plinkett reviews, which are much more wide-ranging, that was pretty much the only aspect discussed.

For all the nonsensical galactic politics and weird walking transporters, Picard's production values are excellent, the cast is hugely talented, and Stewart in particular turns in several lovely acting moments per episode. No, it's not yet a shining addition to the Trek pantheon, but then, not much of Trek is, particularly in their first seasons. If the show come up with a more modest and coherent second season, and tone down the gratuitous adult content, it could still produce something great. We'll see...

 

[Tuskin38]

I don’t have a link to the original video, but here’s a clip of one of these you tubers claiming that Patrick never attended a Star Trek convention before Picard was announced
https://twitter.com/alestrek/status/1264543127781728263?s=21