Apparently Utopia Planitia was the largest and suffered the biggest loss in the attack, resulting in reworking all possible parts and configurations.
Stands to reason to my mind.
PIC S3 Ships & Tech
- Thread starter NCC-73515
- Start date
Stands to reason to my mind.
They probably hollowed it out with all new tech and re-skinned it with the latest refined metals. Only the original spaceframe remains.
I haven't rewatched it since it was first shown, but doesn't the season three finale "That Hope Is You, Part 2" suggest that at least part of the Discovery's original computer system remains?
I suppose that is the conclusion we must draw, but it seems strange that Starfleet would be so dependent on one single central production facility.
It would seem more strange in TNG. Post Dominion War it is less strange to me.
Why? During war time surely Starfleet would seek to maximise ship production?
Though thinking about it, we do have DS9's "frankenfleet" ships to suggest maybe Starfleet was recycling ship components long before the destruction of Utopia Planitia anyway. I hadn't considered that before...
Last edited:
And shipyards would also be the most targeted assests by their enemies. So they would have to get creative to keep up their war efforts, while also facing a lot of losses and damaged capacity, and work force reduction due to personnel losses.
Yes, they would try to ramp up production but it's not like there were not forces trying to prevent that from happening, damaging ships at every opportunity, and killing people. You can replace some things but not everything, and certainly not quickly.
Per the TNG-TM, it took twenty years to build the Enterprise-D. With that in mind and with the Federation's biggest and best shipyards reduced to ashes, I can see some wholesale changes being made (especially if the Federation was not on a war footing, not discounting the Romulan evacuation). Smaller ships like Voyager, the Titan et. al. wouldn't take as long, but it's still likely measured in years even with the yards running at full tilt.
And we ARE in an age where ships are being fielded with older looks to them. I mean there are the ships which appear to be incremental upgrades over preceding classes (Ross, Sutherland, etc.) but there are others which are completely outsized to their predecessors but which keep certain shapes intact (Obena, Connie III). While I still have fundamental problems with shoehorning the Titan's size and appearance into the current era, I grudgingly accept that there's enough evidence to warrant it.
Mark
And we ARE in an age where ships are being fielded with older looks to them. I mean there are the ships which appear to be incremental upgrades over preceding classes (Ross, Sutherland, etc.) but there are others which are completely outsized to their predecessors but which keep certain shapes intact (Obena, Connie III). While I still have fundamental problems with shoehorning the Titan's size and appearance into the current era, I grudgingly accept that there's enough evidence to warrant it.
Mark
I see this figure bandied around a lot, but that includes the time it took to finalise the Galaxy-class design and R&D, as well as all the very extensive shakedown testing of the first batch of ships – all of which took years. The actual physical construction time for the Enterprise-D was less than nine years from first physical components being built (2350) to the ship being leaving the dock (2358), including two years of critical component delays. For comparison, the construction of a modern aircraft carrier of the Gerald R. Ford class takes around four years.
If we assume starship construction is largely dependent on the volume of the ship, then a nine-year construction period for a Galaxy-class ship would mean that an Intrepid-class would take only about one year to build.
Yes, IIRC, Zora is in there and she's protected parts of the core to prevent people from yanking her out or flatlining her. When I said "hollowed out", that was a bit of hyperbole on my part. I'm sure that some legacy components remain (rooms, hallways & the core), but many of the other systems were obviously upgraded with the new 32nd century tech. Still not sure about all the supposed benefits of the detachable bits, but it's certainly interesting to look at.
Granted, but Utopia Planitia was destroyed in 2385, and the Dominion War ended in 2375. I can fully believe that Starfleet's shipyards may have been in a parlous state at the end of the war, but a decade later? Wouldn't reconstruction have been both Starfleet's and the Federation's top priority?
Especially since most of their ships were outdated Excelsiors and Mirandas?
Reconstruction of...
...Betazed.
...Cardassia.
...Bajor.
other shipyards and rebuilding the fleet and all of it takes time and personnel, who may not be in abundance due to casualties. Plus the Borg attack, plus the Romulans attacking.
It all adds up.
Why did Bajor need reconstruction? It avoided Dominion aggression during the Dominion War and by the mid-2370s was potentially in a position to provide aid rather than require it.
Again – sure, I 100% buy that in 2375. But a decade later?
The Battle of Sector 001 took place in 2373, somewhere between the DS9 episodes "For The Uniform" and "In Purgatory's Shadow". It was not as significant a loss for Starfleet as Wolf 359, and even with Wolf 359 they expected to "have the fleet back up in less than a year".
Ok, I'll blame my failing memory and thinking out of order.
I do think so, largely due enough loses, enough rungs knocked out, enough leadership level tiers killed that adds up over time.
It's death by 1000 cuts. You can manage this and that but over time it all adds up. Largely owing to personnel losses that are not quickly replaced.
Actually I've been thoroughly enjoying the discussion
It does seem as though @fireproof78's logic aligns broadly with what the current production team were intending – assuming they were intending anything beyond "this'll be cool for the story we want to tell and the ships we want to show, and the fans will figure out the details for themselves" – but it's definitely not the background or scenario I'd have chosen. However, that's what we're seeing on-screen, so that must be what is. Just trying to figure out how we travelled that long road getting from there to here...
Most fans didn’t like the cut-and-paste fleet at the end of season 1, but I’ve always felt that those mass-produced warships were a logical progression after the Dominion war. So I had no problem with it. Now with that said, I would much rather have the diversity in starship design like what we got in season 2 (although I don’t agree with the choices of STO ships they went with.) Either way, I’m still of the opinion that losing Utopia Planitia should not have affected starship production so severely. But what do I know? I’m not in charge of making the rules for this fictitious universe. I only point out illogic where I see it.
And to be perfectly clear this is not the path I would have chosen either. I don't think the fleet needs to be hugely diverse, but I don't think it needs to be restricted either. But, I do believe that we have to work inside the parameters given onscreen based on what we know of the universe and possible outcomes. So, one, I appreciate the conversation, and two, I do think it's something that fans will figure out for themselves because that's what fans do. How many times I built different little starships, and starfighters and uniforms and designs to accommodate clear needs in a TOS setting never addressed in the show? I've lost count since playing with my Mego figures.Actually I've been thoroughly enjoying the discussion
So, more on topic, I agree with @Dukhat that mass produced warships were logical, and so I had no issue with the fleet at the end of Season 1. I do also think that Starfleet was faced with shortages due to the war, that were still having an impact a decade later, primarily in the personnel department. Losing a starship isn't just losing a resource; it's losing 400+ resources of people who had already been training to serve on a starship, who understood engineering, or operations, command, science, etc. So, you have to take that time to train those people, get them familiar, and able to continue to support the ships you are building and replacing.
Again, this isn't just a ship or materials or even a production problem, but a people problem. So, if people are busy helping rebuild Betazed, Earth, and other areas impacted by the Dominion War those people are not helping staff ships, but helping in other efforts.
It adds up.
Yeah, I'm pretty much the same. Two decades after the Battle of Sector 001 and the Dominion War it made sense to me that Starfleet would have built a rapid response fleet they could mobilise quickly in an emergency. Also, Riker specifically calls out that they're the fastest ships available. It's possible he was just grandstanding for the Romulans, but if he's telling the truth then logically they'd be the first ships to arrive even if they're part of a larger mixed fleet.
Yeah, this is pretty much exactly my thoughts too.
Similar threads
