Phasers in the Kitchen

[Subcommander R.]

... What? This is the Cold War - a big part of American and Russian history where we were pointing nukes at each other for nearly 40 years. Both countries on a thin line that could have snapped thus causing WWIII. It is a major lesson in History courses here in American High Schools and I'm sure it plays a big part of Russian history over there. Considering Chekov is the "master of all things in Russian history" wouldn't you think he'd have some idea about the Cold War?

Also, in the military, you learn about military wars and confrontations. How can you command and assume command if you don't know the past histories of wars and the decisions that changed the face of the wars? You're basically calling Chekov an idiot who slept through school. Chekov had derp moments but Starfleet officers should have known their military history. Why else would they spend 4 years at a Military Academy?

I agree with this statement, but keep in mind Chekov's chronic habit of getting Russia/history facts wrong.

Hardly. Only a hardened feminazi would find fault in terms like "mankind" or "fireman", and she'd deserve no pity for it; trying to twist "human" into a derogatorily exclusive expression only casts the Klingons in the role they hold anyway, as bloodlusty offenders who attack with words if they can't bring their disruptors to bear.

How can you not find the term human rights to be NOT offensive? It would be like calling African Americans today negroes (again). At one point it was permissible, but no longer. We know better. I'm with the Klingons on this one.

 

[Merky]

I agree with this statement, but keep in mind Chekov's chronic habit of getting Russia/history facts wrong.

Oh, of course, which is why I put it in quotation marks. lol. Sarcasm is hard to convey via text.

 

[Timo]

The Cold War is being taught in schools today. But for Kirk and Chekov, it's as distant from their reality as the War of Spanish Succession is from ours.

Moreover, the Cold War wasn't even a war. The two sides didn't properly fight each other; there are no battles to remember, no tactics or strategies to learn. It may all sound hugely important to us today, but in the Trek version of world history, I see no significance to the later generations. Except perhaps as a footnote on the obscure concept of MAD, right alongside the concepts of Bleeding France White or Holding the Wind Gage.

The United States of the 1980s would be as alien an environment to our Earthlings as the France of the late 1500s would be to us. I'd wager none of the military officers attending this forum would be able to avoid horrible faux pas that'd ultimately lead to their deaths if they were sent to that place and time...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cyke101]

They knew what they were saying at the table. The romulan ale just loosened their tongues to offend smoothly with words. Kirk referenced Hitler, Chekov slipped and said that line, Uhura was visibly disgusted by the way the Klingons ate, McCoy got in an argument at the table.

IIRC, Chekov said that line in the hallway before dinner, and thus before the Romulan ale. If so, then he can't blame alcohol this time

Err, Chekov was clearly making a cheeky, lighthearted joke to show Kirk that he was okay. He was definitely smiling.

He was delusional, I doubt that smile was him knowingly joking about it. XD

Oh come on, it's simply a joke, nothing more nothing less. If it was delusion, Chekov would show symptoms of panic or concern, and the scene would dwell on his condition more, like McCoy diagnosing the problem or Kirk fearing for Chekov -- really, before he regained consciousness, Kirk called him Pavel, and how often do we hear that? The joke is there to calm Kirk but also to relieve the audience.

Besides, something as heavy as delusion would hamper the tone of the scene itself, which is lighthearted to overall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMaGnpVaSGQ

Chekov isn't going to say, "PSYCHE! GOTCHA! You should see the looks on your faces!"

the first line is problematic to begin with (which is why Nichols didn't want to say it)

What does it refer to? Does it have some specific cultural significance to Americans, say? Is it a quote from a sitcom or something?

On the surface, the words "Guess who's coming to dinner" don't sound particularly offensive. For referring to a bunch of murderous savages, that is.

It refers to the film "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner," a film from the 1960s about a white woman bringing her fiance home for dinner, and her fiance is a black man, so obviously he becomes the elephant in the room.
From Memory-Alpha's Star Trek VI page:
Uhura originally had a very racist line "Would you let your daughter marry one?" (that is, a Klingon), but the line had to be cut because Nichols absolutely refused to say it. Chekov's line "Guess who's coming to dinner?" was also originally Uhura's, but Nichols considered it also to be racist and declined to say it. The line was moved to Chekov. It was a reference to Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, the first major film to deal with interracial marriage, in which Katherine Hepburn, Spencer Tracy, and Sidney Poitier starred.

and the second line was just a quick but poor error in judgement, considering that he said that line to a delegation of non-humans.

Hardly. Only a hardened feminazi would find fault in terms like "mankind" or "fireman", and she'd deserve no pity for it; trying to twist "human" into a derogatorily exclusive expression only casts the Klingons in the role they hold anyway, as bloodlusty offenders who attack with words if they can't bring their disruptors to bear.

However, one of the main fears of the Klingon conspirators themselves was that the Federation was an imperialist power. Whether or not that's true or not, whether it's legit or not, is beside the point -- Chekov stating "human" rights as if it were automatic shows a mode of dominant thinking that rightly raises Azetbur's eyebrow. She called him out on that.

If you're trying to get two sides to the table, you don't use institutionalized language and assume everyone comes to the table on those terms. It's like an American going over to Egypt or Libya right now and saying everyone deserves American rights and values because he's been conditioned to think that way -- but from the other side, that'll instantly conjure up images of American imperialism and colonization, and repeats of Iraq and the Philippines. Assuaging fears about imperialism is why America won't send in ground troops to Libya.

We see the reverse of this a number of times in TNG and DS9, where Klingons are confused that humans don't or can't seem to adopt certain but deeply entrenched Klingon ways. The exchange between Chekov and Azetbur shows it going the other way, from humans this time.

I agree with this statement, but keep in mind Chekov's chronic habit of getting Russia/history facts wrong.

Aye, and sometimes we can never be sure if he's being cheeky or if he's sincerely wrong, too. Either way, I wouldn't bet on him to win any trivia contests any time soon.

 

[Merky]

Moreover, the Cold War wasn't even a war. The two sides didn't properly fight each other; there are no battles to remember, no tactics or strategies to learn.

What history book were you reading? The Bay of Pigs aka the Cuban Missle Crisis? Nixon meeting the Chinese? The Spread of Communism? The Korean War? The Vietnam War? The War of Afghanistan? All of these events connected itself to The Cold War. There was diplomatic tensions and strategies that were used. It was not a war of physical might but a war of minds. The Cold War was a signifigant world event between two large powers. I can't believe you're undermining the impact of a 44 year war.

It may all sound hugely important to us today, but in the Trek version of world history, I see no significance to the later generations. Except perhaps as a footnote on the obscure concept of MAD, right alongside the concepts of Bleeding France White or Holding the Wind Gage.

I disagree.

The United States of the 1980s would be as alien an environment to our Earthlings as the France of the late 1500s would be to us. I'd wager none of the military officers attending this forum would be able to avoid horrible faux pas that'd ultimately lead to their deaths if they were sent to that place and time...

Kirk noted that 80s Earth was primitive and paranoid. Why? There was the fear of Russian spies, going into war with the Russians, they had just came out of the Vietnam War, there were hijackings, etc etc. They came in understanding the basic events of the decade. We, as humans, learn history in order to not repeat the mistakes of the past. You're basically saying that no one will learn of the cold war because it's not recent? That's a silly ideology.

If it was delusion, Chekov would show symptoms of panic or concern, and the scene would dwell on his condition more, like McCoy diagnosing the problem or Kirk fearing for Chekov

Delusional doesn't mean schizophrenic. He hit his head, he thought he was an admiral for a moment. Perhaps he was dreaming? He obviously wasn't all there. People say some really dumb stuff when they're coming out of anesthesia. It's a silly moment, that's why no one took it seriously. It was Chekov being Chekov.

 

[Cyke101]

If it was delusion, Chekov would show symptoms of panic or concern, and the scene would dwell on his condition more, like McCoy diagnosing the problem or Kirk fearing for Chekov

Delusional doesn't mean schizophrenic. He hit his head, he thought he was an admiral for a moment. Perhaps he was dreaming? He obviously wasn't all there. People say some really dumb stuff when they're coming out of anesthesia. It's a silly moment, that's why no one took it seriously. It was Chekov being Chekov.

I think that's a rather cynical take on Chekov and his relation to the others, though, that no one took Chekov seriously for being Chekov -- a colleague, officer, and friend they've been with for 20 years and part of Kirk's posse. How was he "obviously" not all there?

And really, if Chekov was delusional, why wouldn't the scene focus more on his plight then after he wakes up? After all, whenever Chekov was hurt in the other examples you cited, there were blatant signals there. You're thinking too hard about, coincidentally, a head injury. Watch the link again and see if the tone of the clip, Chekov's performance, the speed of the cuts, and the music all reconcile to imply a delusional Chekov.

"Admiral Chekov -- yeah, I like the sound of that," seems much more cheery and, frankly, more fitting for an optimistic romp like this one.

 

[Merky]

I think you're taking it a bit too seriously, me thinks and you're probably taking what I said way to literal. I am not talking about the psychatric definition of someone who is medically classified as "Delusional", I am saying this casually as " Oh he was just being delusional ".

 

[Cyke101]

I think you're taking it a bit too seriously, me thinks and you're probably taking what I said way to literal. I am not talking about the psychatric definition of someone who is medically classified as "Delusional", I am saying this casually as " Oh he was just being delusional ".

Oh, my taking it literally is probably true, but I still maintain that Chekov knew what he was saying when he came out of the coma and hence made a conscious joke. I also think humor and delivery can be subtle that you don't have to wink at the audience to let them in on the joke.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Merky]

I think you're taking it a bit too seriously, me thinks and you're probably taking what I said way to literal. I am not talking about the psychatric definition of someone who is medically classified as "Delusional", I am saying this casually as " Oh he was just being delusional ".

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Cyke101]

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Moreover, the Cold War wasn't even a war. The two sides didn't properly fight each other; there are no battles to remember, no tactics or strategies to learn.

What history book were you reading? The Bay of Pigs aka the Cuban Missle Crisis?

Um the Bay of Pigs invasion and the Cuban Missle Crisis were separate events, not the same one.

 

[Timo]

...Moreover, neither of them would be battles between the United States and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. They might be classified as proxy wars (Bay of Pigs) or gunboat diplomacy (Cuban missile crisis), but such things, while perhaps hugely important for the people who have to live or die with them, generally hold little long-term historical interest. Neither Bay of Pigs or the Cuban blockade rank up with the stand at Thermopylae or even the fiasco of Kasserine Pass in terms of military-educational value.

During the Cold War, two major powers hated each others' guts. Which means that the Cold War did not differ in any way from the preceding ten thousand years of human existence. Why should Chekov be expected to remember not to be noticeably Russian in the 1980s when a military expert of today would have no idea whether to present himself as pro-Savoyian or anti-Savoyian in Philip V's Spain during the War of Spanish Succession?

The slim chance that our heroes might have some inkling of the finer points of the Cold War is that the impasse between the Federation and the Klingon Empire appeared at least superficially similar, and thus Starfleet Academy might choose to bring up the 20th century conflict as an example of a comparable political-strategic situation. There would be no clear military parallels, though, so probably such examples would be brought up in civilian universities rather than the Academy Chekov went into.

Kirk noted that 80s Earth was primitive and paranoid. Why?

Because it was 300 years in the past. Reason enough.

To be sure, Kirk and Spock would have known about the Cold War era, having visited it in "Assignment: Earth". But Chekov, Sulu, Uhura and Scotty had not. They had stayed shipboard; we don't know if they had learned anything more about the planet below them than they learned about the average alien world visited.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Merky]

Um the Bay of Pigs invasion and the Cuban Missle Crisis were separate events, not the same one.

The Cuban Missile Crisis is same event as the Bay of Pigs as it was the operation in result of the crisis.

...Moreover, neither of them would be battles between the United States and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. They might be classified as proxy wars (Bay of Pigs) or gunboat diplomacy (Cuban missile crisis), but such things, while perhaps hugely important for the people who have to live or die with them, generally hold little long-term historical interest.

What? The Cuban Missile Crisis was direct confrontation between America, Cuba and the Soviet Union. The Soviets were working with the Cubans as America was attempting to overthrow the new regime. Every single war and political event that I listed was a direct result of the Cold War. It was a war against communism with America and the USSR being the biggest powers engaged. What history book are you reading, Timo?

The slim chance that our heroes might have some inkling of the finer points of the Cold War is that the impasse between the Federation and the Klingon Empire appeared at least superficially similar, and thus Starfleet Academy might choose to bring up the 20th century conflict as an example of a comparable political-strategic situation. There would be no clear military parallels, though, so probably such examples would be brought up in civilian universities rather than the Academy Chekov went into.

When I took NJROTC, Naval Junior Reserves Officers Training Course, a program in High Schools in a America by the Defense Department for those interested in joining the military or continuing onto ROTC in college -- we had to learn about every naval battle and war that the United States had participated in. We also had to learn about other major naval battles from other countries that made an impact on the world today. The Cold War was a huge portion of our studies in that four year course.

That was just a high school civilian course designed by the US Defense Department and you mean to tell me that a larger military organization, albeit peaceful in principle, would not have a single course or would neglect to teach such a major historical military and political event such as the Cold War? That it would not be important despite the fact that due to it Korea split into two separate nations, Vietnam fell into a senseless war that claimed many American, Vietnamese and French lives, America imposed an embargo on Cuba that lasts even till this day, and not to mention a space race that defined our reasons of space exploration and becoming the first to land on the moon?

I, dear sir, wholeheartedly disagree with your logic. No offense.

 

[Timo]

The Cuban Missile Crisis was direct confrontation between America, Cuba and the Soviet Union.

It was a battle that didn't happen. Not worth writing home about, then. How many other battles that didn't happen have made it into history books?

(I mean general history. There is of course an anal-retentively accurate account of every failed siege in the sordid history of English-Scottish animosity, but only the actual battles are remembered in general.)

we had to learn about every naval battle and war that the United States had participated in.

And which part of the Cold War did the United Federation of Planets participate in?

It was an ancient conflict by a bunch of foreign nations that never resulted in anything much, except making the natives of the time very anxious. What it may have generated in terms of "world order" evaporated in the next few decades and was completely forgotten before a hundred years had been clocked.

Again, Spanish succession. Huge impact on the world, much bigger than the Cold War. Completely forgotten now. What was taught about that in NJROTC? Blenheim, perhaps? Would knowing about Blenheim have helped you cope with the code of conduct in the court of Philip V, or the streets of Louis XIV's Paris?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cyke101]

Here's one thing about Chekov and his Russian pride -- would Russia necessarily teach about the Cold War as extensively as they do in other countries like the US and parts of Europe? I ask because in US text books, we give quaint and glossed-over facts about Vietnam in grade and high school history classes, to the point where there's a large segment of American youth (majority?) out there that's unaware that we lost that war. Virtually every country with a formidable education system teaches a different view on historical events, especially when it comes to war, conflict, and politics.

Or for that matter, would Chekov care to commit such a history to detailed memory to begin with?

 

[Merky]

Never resulted in anything much?

America has a current embargo against Cuba. You know what that means in relations to that country, right? We are unable to visit the country and they are unable to visit our country. We are unable to trade with that country. We are unable to engage in that country. There was the Vietnam war in which we lost thousands of soldiers in a war that went no where.

There was the Korean War that resulted in the split of a unified country, one that became communistic and one that became democratic. To this day those countries are still under high tension with N. Korea constantly threatening to blow Japan and Korea out of the sky. N. Korea has already launched a missile over Japan and S. Korea and N. Korea were almost about to engage in a war after a scuffle on the boarder. American soldiers are still, to this day, based at the DMZ to make sure N. Korea doesn't infiltrate S. Korea.

Did not result in much? That's not even forget all the events that happened in Soviet Russia when it began to collapse in the 80s and how that began to affect the world.

History is history. People do not forget history, especially on a scale that big and especially if it's between two countries that were the forerunners of said conflict. You're saying that Chekov would not have known of the Cold War as if this was like a small negotiation that went bad for 47 years.

You keep bringing up the Spanish succession but that has nothing to do about a Russian man knowing his Russian history. A character created because of the conflicts of the Cold War. A character that was defined by the Cold War. This is all about Chekov knowing this important piece of information that shaped his beloved country. The fall of communism, the fall of Soviet Russia, the heated conflict of impending nuclear war wasn't just some passing of events. It was a defining factor of the 20th century.

Chekov would have known.

Here's one thing about Chekov and his Russian pride -- would Russia necessarily teach about the Cold War as extensively as they do in other countries like the US and parts of Europe? I ask because in US text books, we give quaint and glossed-over facts about Vietnam in grade and high school history classes, to the point where there's a large segment of American youth (majority?) out there that's unaware that we lost that war. Virtually every country with a formidable education system teaches a different view on historical events, especially when it comes to war, conflict, and politics.

In my history classes in High School, especially American History, we dedicated a semester to Civil Rights, Vietnam, and the defining factors of the 60s - 70s. The American system in itself is flawed as each state has their own set standards and then each district in the state create their own curriculum to follow then the teachers do whatever they want with it.

Or for that matter, would Chekov care to commit such a history to detailed memory to begin with?

You don't have to know the details to figure out that 80s: Russians and American don't like each other. Cold War. Lots of tension. Shouldn't ask about nuclear vessels.

 

[Cyke101]

Chekov would have known.

"We do not discuss it with outsiders."
--Worf, channeling Chekov?

 

[Merky]

Chekov would have known.

"We do not discuss it with outsiders."
--Worf, channeling Chekov?

Maybe.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Just to make things clear: The cold war set the foundations for the modern era's distinct difficulties. It left a HUGE footprint behind, one that would literally be impossible to not know.

And think of the cultural impact. The cold war has been imprinted into all kinds of media. Books, films, etc.

 

[Timo]

America has a current embargo against Cuba.

Emphasis on "current". It's futile to argue about lasting effects when only an eyeblink has passed since the end of the event itself.

Essentially, all the effects listed are merely a return to status quo. Korea was split before the Cold War; situation remains. Germany was united; situation restored. The US was the technologically superior adversary but not outright military enemy of an ambitious Russia under authoritarian personal rule; situation restored. The US and Russia tried to expand their spheres of direct political influence through proxy wars, and now the wars are in the past and the influence is gone; both sides have humiliated themselves in Afghanistan, for example. And even that isn't merely situation restored, it's a no-event in world history, because everybody humiliates himself in Afghanistan sooner or later, be it Alexander the Great, Ashoka, or the British Empire.

You keep bringing up the Spanish succession but that has nothing to do about a Russian man knowing his Russian history.

Actually, that conflict is the very reason there could be a Cold War in the first place. That conflict drew the lines between the British and French empires that enabled the United States to be born; that conflict delivered Russia from the persistent threat of its annying northern challengers Poland and Sweden and enabled the rise of that superpower, the reign of the Greats that Chekov so fondly remembers. That conflict also split Europe to suitably sized pieces that could become a battlefield between the later superpowers, instead of being a monobloc world dominator itself.

The only significant difference there is that the Spanish succession issue is 600 years in the Trek past while the Cold War is 300. Since we don't remember the 300-year-old chain of events that shaped our world, there's no particular reason why Chekov ought to, either.

Doesn't mean Chekov would be particularly uneducated. Everybody here is keen to prove his knowledge of events 50 years in the past. Chekov might have been well educated on those, too, knowing the history of the UFP/Klingon conflict in painstaking detail - especially the role of Russia in it...

Timo Saloniemi