Exactly. Deflect!
Phasers in the Kitchen
- Thread starter Subcommander R.
- Start date
Exactly. Deflect!
Not really. There was no phasers found on their person and the time between retrieving Kirk and McCoy from Rura Penthe in the Transporter Room was enough time for her to execute them. Also, it would not be difficult for her to shoot them at close range -- they would either suffer from a serious deadly wound or simply vaporize. There is no chance of a ricochet.
I doubt they went double suicide because they seemed like a bunch of low-ranking enlisted idiots. The plan originally assumed that Kirk and McCoy would spend their lives on Rura Penthe (or be killed) and Enterprise would simple return back to Space Dock giving them the chance to get off of the ship and dispose of the evidence. Obviously they under estimated Spock's super amazing sleuthing skills and their plan backfired. Valeris had to react in the best logical way possible and take them out knowing that the search was closing in on them.
If they would have been caught they would have turned her in. She had to intervene to make sure the coup went ahead as planned. Obviously, in her haste in believing that they survived, Valeris slipped up and fell into a trap. She returned to Sickbay to make sure that they stayed dead. Not a far stretch of the imagination at all.
C: Why not just waporize them?
V: ....you mean like this? *ZAP*
V: ....you mean like this? *ZAP*
But easy for her to shoot them both at medium range on stun, then close in and deliver the killing shots.
I agree that the two goons would not have been suicidally devoted to their cause. Hell, not even Valeris herself was! When the PA about Burke and Samno surviving was made, Valeris must have known that either she was going to be exposed in a matter of minutes by their testimony, or she was going to be exposed in a matter of minutes by her attempt to stop that testimony. The only logical service she could do to the conspiracy cause now would be to kill Kirk and pals, blow up the Enterprise, or otherwise commit extended suicide. Instead, she chose the path of discarding the conspiracy and protecting her own pretty ass.
Overall, she made for a fine delaying action. She encouraged Chekov in his futile attempts at sleuthing, including humiliating him with the Dax boots episode. I wonder if Spock didn't present the rather insane "rationale" of searcing for the boots only because he wanted to see which of his trusted friends would side with him against all reason and use the opportunity to mount a time-wasting search... When both Valeris and Chekov did that, he must have been quite confused, not quite knowing which of them to distrust (Valeris was a guest star, Chekov was a well-established racist hothead, and both had excellent access to conspiracy-critical things, so both were suspect), whether they worked together, or whether one was framing the other. So he waited, as this suited his plans just as well as those of the conspirators.
Timo Saloniemi
Hmmm, now I call that a far stretch. Chekov has proven time after time for years that he was devoted to the Enterprise and her Captain. I don't think the idea crossed Chekov's mind at all, I think it was more of a writer's decision of " Kirk and McCoy are out of the picture, Spock needs a character from the main cast to sleuth with -- Why not Chekov? "
It's also established time and time again that Chekov was his assistant on several projects and assignments so yeah... I don't think Spock suspected Chekov.
It's also established time and time again that Chekov was his assistant on several projects and assignments so yeah... I don't think Spock suspected Chekov.
It's a dumb line regardless, there is no reason for Valeris to have to explain to Chekov something he should already know. The line was in there for one reason, to explain to the audience. I always hate it when a line that is intended for exposition feels like a line that was intended for exposition. It reeks of lazy screenwriting.
I don't like stupid exposition either. Like Airbender, it's daunting and ridiculous.
But in that situation? They need to write for the ST fan and the regular audience member unfamiliar with the word. They needed to set up that bit of information and make it stick in the heads of the audience so when they returned back that scene it would be a " Ahhh " moment.
It maybe "lazy" screenwriting to those already familiar with the ST world but to everyone else? It explains a valuable piece of information -- even if it was taken up a notch to display it.
Besides, Chekov has always been the fall guy. I rather take him having a derp moment than him getting killed, electrocuted, mind controlled, falling off of the side of a nuclear wessel, suffering from head trauma, getting mind controlled again, and turned into one of the three stooges.
But in that situation? They need to write for the ST fan and the regular audience member unfamiliar with the word. They needed to set up that bit of information and make it stick in the heads of the audience so when they returned back that scene it would be a " Ahhh " moment.
It maybe "lazy" screenwriting to those already familiar with the ST world but to everyone else? It explains a valuable piece of information -- even if it was taken up a notch to display it.
Besides, Chekov has always been the fall guy. I rather take him having a derp moment than him getting killed, electrocuted, mind controlled, falling off of the side of a nuclear wessel, suffering from head trauma, getting mind controlled again, and turned into one of the three stooges.
This is one of many things that make this movie suck. Thanks, Nick. The only good thing is we didn't have sit through the whole "alien with glowing hand in flying car" thing.
Then they could and should have found a better to present the information. Proper exposition lets the audience members know what they need to know without ruining plausibility or making an allegedly smart character look dumb.
Having said that, I love most of this fun, exciting movie. It's just that a few scenes here and there needed a rewrite.
I happen to love it, its one of my top two films. Why? Because its accessible to everyone and was a great way to wrap things up, and the political tie-in was excellent.
Chekov has always been the character to be subjected to the abuse role in nearly all of the movies.
TOS: Shot at, got duped several times, fell in love easily and lost track of his duties, "died" for one episode, etc
ST I: Electrocuted
ST II: Taken hostages, forced a worm in his ear, mind controlled, nearly suffered brain trauma
ST III: He was lucky... this time
ST IV: Blindly asked a cop where a nuclear wessle was at without taking into consideration that America was smack in the middle of the Cold War. Also got chased, arrested, escaped, fell off of a ship, got arrested again, nearly died, and claimed to be an Admiral in a delusional state when he came to
ST V: .... Don't even get me started
ST VI: Forgot about unauthorized phasers.
It was always within his character to be ST's punching bag. I think Scotty later asking the question once they find the bodies is more insulting than Chekov's derp moment.
That's what I was trying to get at. Exposition can be inserted into dialogue and situations and not feel blatantly like it's exposition.
I wouldn't hold it against the guy, simply because most of the crew made their own social faux pas's for not knowing cultural context (Spock's swearing, Kirk with Gillian, Scotty and McCoy with the plexiglass engineer, etc). While Chekov is singled out to suffer in the other movies, I don't think this counts.
Now this is legit and follows the pattern that Chekov must suffer in the movies.
Err, Chekov was clearly making a cheeky, lighthearted joke to show Kirk that he was okay. He was definitely smiling.
I think this is one of the least of Chekov's worries in the film. For example, the writers gave him two pretty racist, absent-minded lines ("Guess who's coming to dinner" and "inalienable human rights").
Now, while Generations has a ton of faults, I appreciated that, for once, Chekov was the one saving bodies instead of getting hurt yet again. Yes, I know his lines were meant for McCoy, but having Chekov take command of medical without being ordered to and recruiting reporters as nurses was a small but nice (albeit probably unintended) subversion of his punching bag role.
This was probably one attempt at such. I mean, the characters could simply have stated the fact, which would have been both blatant exposition and boring.
You call having to wear that thing "lucky"?
How's that out of character? We're talking about Pavel "Close Enough to Smell Them" Chekov here.
For all we know, Klingons did slaughter his brother Pjotr...
Timo Saloniemi
You call having to wear that thing "lucky"?
How's that out of character? We're talking about Pavel "Close Enough to Smell Them" Chekov here.
For all we know, Klingons did slaughter his brother Pjotr...
Timo Saloniemi
I don't know if it's in-character or out of it, but the first line is problematic to begin with (which is why Nichols didn't want to say it) and the second line was just a quick but poor error in judgement, considering that he said that line to a delegation of non-humans. I don't think he meant to offend, but it shows how the centrality of humans is still very much in the institution, as if humans had a hegemonic power over the rest of the Federation.
They knew what they were saying at the table. The romulan ale just loosened their tongues to offend smoothly with words. Kirk referenced Hitler, Chekov slipped and said that line, Uhura was visibly disgusted by the way the Klingons ate, McCoy got in an argument at the table.
They are all well trained diplomats and explorers that let their prejudice turn a positive evening into a crappy one. Which is why Spock tried to do damage control and failed whenever Kirk overrode him with a rude comment.
It could count. Scotty and McCoy were aware of the potential harm they could be doing to the timeline, as well as Kirk, and Spock had just be resurrected and still thinking like a "Vulcan" and not as a human (Kirk chews him out for that in the movie)... Chekov was simply not thinking when he started blabbering about nuclear wessles while Uhura was simply asking about the Naval Base.
They're smart individuals with advance degrees, knowing that bit of information on Earth's history would help
He was delusional, I doubt that smile was him knowingly joking about it. XD
What does it refer to? Does it have some specific cultural significance to Americans, say? Is it a quote from a sitcom or something?
On the surface, the words "Guess who's coming to dinner" don't sound particularly offensive. For referring to a bunch of murderous savages, that is.
Hardly. Only a hardened feminazi would find fault in terms like "mankind" or "fireman", and she'd deserve no pity for it; trying to twist "human" into a derogatorily exclusive expression only casts the Klingons in the role they hold anyway, as bloodlusty offenders who attack with words if they can't bring their disruptors to bear.
Why wouldn't he? The very point of the movie is that everybody in that table has a sound reason to wish painful death for the opposition. Out of the lot, quite possibly only Gorkon and Spock honestly wish for peace. The dialogue could justly reflect this.
Are they? We don't explicitly know that such a thing would be part of the training of a Starfleet officer and gentleman.
We don't really get the impression that this would be part of their training, either. Only Kirk has ever shown competence in Earth history, and mainly as refers to the 19th century; he knows very little about the 1930s milieus he visits in "City on the Edge" and "Patterns of Force".
Timo Saloniemi
Given the countless occasions that they've been sent on missions to transport delegates, meet with delegates, and indoctrinate new planets into the Federation it would be foolish to all of a sudden throw out the window that the senior crew of the Enterprise are not trained diplomats in handling interplanetary affairs. It is in their job to do so -- that was the whole basis of their mission: Discover new planets, explore, and if possible get them to join the Federation if technologically able to.
You're implying then that military officers do not know their military history. The Cold War is just as important as the Eugenics War and every other war mentioned in Star Trek. It's common knowledge to know that a 40 year odd war was going on between Soviet Russia and United States of America. You learn this in school. It's a big part of history and it would be idiotic if a Russian would not even remember such an important part of history that could have caused WWIII.
Knowing about the way of life is completely different then learning about military history and it's impact on the world. Uhura was completely aware and asked for the naval base, Chekov was completely dense and asked specifically for nuclear vessels. Nimoy even said he purposely did that to make light on the cold war by having a Russian ask an American cop where the nukes were at.
Whenever our TOS heroes were actually tasked with bringing a planet to the UFP fold, they did it with the force of arms, or didn't get it done at all... And all of their diplomatic ferry missions ended in bloodbath of some sort or another, speaking ill of their competence in that area. And only Kirk and Spock ever showed any negotiation skills. There's no indication that their navigator or communications officer would have been trained for that job, or that there would have been an advantage to doing so.
Hmh? How many schools successfully teach about the War of Spanish Succession? It was certainly far more influential in shaping Europe, and took place in the more recent past from the POV of the school. It's more than likely that all our heroes slept through that particular class at school; whether Starfleet Academy wanted to remind them of it later on is up to speculation.
Timo Saloniemi
You're going for face value here, Timo. What makes you think that in 25 years of service to Kirk and this mission that he did not personally pull his senior crew aside to engage in diplomatic meetings. No one said the training had to be formal.
What makes you think that every mission that Kirk engaged in his initial 5 year mission was always bloodshed or other violence? That was the episode of the week. But if we are to look at Star Trek as a whole and what Starfleet represents in every incarnation, they are on a mission of peace. They say it countless of times. I'm sure diplomatic affairs is a course they take in Starfleet or something the crew learns on their mission.
... What? This is the Cold War - a big part of American and Russian history where we were pointing nukes at each other for nearly 40 years. Both countries on a thin line that could have snapped thus causing WWIII. It is a major lesson in History courses here in American High Schools and I'm sure it plays a big part of Russian history over there. Considering Chekov is the "master of all things in Russian history" wouldn't you think he'd have some idea about the Cold War?
Also, in the military, you learn about military wars and confrontations. How can you command and assume command if you don't know the past histories of wars and the decisions that changed the face of the wars? You're basically calling Chekov an idiot who slept through school. Chekov had derp moments but Starfleet officers should have known their military history. Why else would they spend 4 years at a Military Academy?
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