• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Phase II Blood and Fire Part 2 Grading and Commentary

Grade Blood and Fire Part 2

  • 10 Deltas - Best Phase II episode ever!

    Votes: 4 5.3%
  • 9 Deltas - Better than Abram's film!

    Votes: 7 9.3%
  • 8 Deltas - Very good!

    Votes: 13 17.3%
  • 7 Deltas - Much better than part one.!

    Votes: 2 2.7%
  • 6 Deltas - Digging It!

    Votes: 7 9.3%
  • 5 Deltas - Pretty good but nothing stellar

    Votes: 12 16.0%
  • 4 Deltas - Not as good as Part 1, but ok.

    Votes: 9 12.0%
  • 3 Deltas - This is turning my blood green...

    Votes: 2 2.7%
  • 2 Deltas - Wake me when their next episode comes out

    Votes: 9 12.0%
  • 1 Deltas - Worse than Spock's Brain.

    Votes: 10 13.3%

  • Total voters
    75
As Darwin observed, the Creator in his infinite generosity bestowed upon us not one but 900 species of intestinal worms. If all of this is anything other than random mutation and natural selection, then the strongest evidence would be in favor of a Stupid Designer. ;)

In fact, sexual reproduction predates the development of male and female characteristics by hundreds of millions of years. The evidence supporting this is vastly more reliable than a few backwards interpretations of mistranslated middle eastern religious texts. ;)
 
As Darwin observed, the Creator in his infinite generosity bestowed upon us not one but 900 species of intestinal worms. If all of this is anything other than random mutation and natural selection, then the strongest evidence would be in favor of a Stupid Designer. ;)

In fact, sexual reproduction predates the development of male and female characteristics by hundreds of millions of years. The evidence supporting this is vastly more reliable than a few backwards interpretations of mistranslated middle eastern religious texts. ;)

That doesn't prove evolution...they are still worms, they did not evolve into a totally different species like a worm to a bird. Nice magazine articles, what do you expect from a liberal media magazine, you didn't think they would publish something contrary to their own beliefs did you? Sexual reproduction? Hummm, let's see..the story of Adam and Eve is in about every culture in one form or another and many other writings more than the bible just like the world wide flood so your opinion or statement of mistranslations are nullified.
 
That doesn't prove evolution...they are still worms, they did not evolve into a totally different species like a worm to a bird. Nice magazine articles, what do you expect from a liberal media magazine, you didn't think they would publish something contrary to their own beliefs did you? Sexual reproduction? Hummm, let's see..the story of Adam and Eve is in about every culture in one form or another and many other writings more than the bible just like the world wide flood so your opinion or statement of mistranslations are nullified.
Or maybe it's just proof that numerous cultures co-opted the same mythological tale. Of course, that's unlikely to be an idea you'd ever consider, since you'll simply dismiss anything that doesn't gel with your worldview as "liberal media".

*Yawn*. Bored now.
 
That doesn't prove evolution...they are still worms, they did not evolve...

4286446488_44be767dbc_o.gif
 
No word on the final audio mix yet? :shifty:


Sorry. No word on the version of "Blood and Fire, Part 2" which has the improved (final) audio on Acts 3, 4, and the Epilogue. (All our sound work is done by one man: Mr. Ralph Miller.)

As soon as it's out, I'd probably be about the second person in the world to know. I'll come to this board and post an announcement as soon as it's released. (My best guess is before the end of the month--which is quickly approaching. Hang in there.)
 
After some thought, I've come to a mixed verdict. Certainly acting quality and production values overall (setting aside the sound situation) are quite good and steadily improving. I really think that the overall production suffered from an attempt to do too much. With all due respect, I think what happened is that the basic premise of using a show to entertain first and using the "message" to strengthen the overall impact of the story (say the difference between cotton candy and a good steak) the show became a vehicle for the message. Sort of the tail wagging the dog. Those who are inclined to tolerate (or approve) gay relationships didn't need to be hit that hard, while those who are not so inclined found an excuse in the rather heavy-handed treatment of the message to reinforce their own inclinations. The fact that the show provoked discussion and controversy is not a bad thing and I have no problem with a show having a message, but I turn to most TV shows for entertainment first and intellectual stimulation. Polemics are not something I seek in that format and I'm afraid the production came perilously close to being a polemic.

I hope that doesn't come across as overly harsh, because I admire the effort put in by everyone involved with Phase II and all the other fan projects for that matter. I also must point out that part I and part II both kept me interested and entertained enough to keep me watching and that's no small accomplishment. I do agree that as enjoyable as Kargh is, I really felt like the subplot really didn't work that well.

As always, Phase II scores a huge "A" for effort with strong grades for production and acting values, but I have to down check the script for overreaching. On the plus side of that, though, what's wrong with going after something big? Teddy Roosevelt said that it was far better to have tried and failed than to have never tried.

Regardless of my mixed verdict here, Phase II represents a great achievement and I hope no one involved with the production takes it as a reason to be anything other than proud of their work.
 
I think your review is well reasoned and reaches some sound conclusions. I'm not sure if "Blood and Fire" will ever be considered our "City on the Edge of Forever." But I think it's not really "Spock's Brain," either.

There's obviously *a lot* that needs to be "right" in order for our goofy show to really feel like Trek. Finding the exact type of lighting, make-up, props, sets, costumes, sound effects, dialogue, music, visual effects, acting, and so many other things is a daunting task--especially on a budget of, well, $0.00. Add to that trying to find the exact amount of "message/preachiness" and, well, it's amazing we get as close as we do in so many aspects--with miles to go in others, of course.

It would be easy to undershoot that amount of "message" an episode should have. Personally, I think Trek has undershot the "message" aspect of their episodes since about the middle of the second season of TOS ("...Last Battlefield" notwithstanding). So I don't want to overshoot the "message" either and turn it into a polemic. But to our credit, it's been a long time since Trek has tread close to the polemic line. And I can live with the criticism of being "overreaching."

Thanks for your input. I value it and would love to hear more of your thoughts on the episode--either here in the open or via PM.

Greg
 
TOS wasn't exactly on balance between message and motion all the time, either. I've had friends just 5 or 10 years my senior tell me their favorite TOS episode was one I thought was too heavy and awkward on message (the black/white, white/black people). On the other hand, reading some kid (under 25) come to the Phase II boards this year and say they found most 60s TV unwatchable but TOS was OK, because it wasn't so 'weird.' "Weird?" I asked. "Do you mean TOS isn't weird because not everyone is white and not all the phones are attached to the walls?" "Yeah," the answer comes back, "exactly!" For me, the view from the mountain top stuff is far more profound than the hit-em-on-the head stuff.
 
Yeah, a few too many issues for B&F to qualify as "best ever", but it's definitely Top Ten material.

Granted, you have to put out significantly more than ten episodes for that to mean much, but still....
 
Finally had a chance to sit down and watch Part II. After the really good set up in Part I, I was really looking forward to this. The first part was really chilling, and the horror conveyed by the blood worms was extremely effective. The opening battle with the Klingon ship was also really very exciting and well shot. I'm going to miss Andy Bray greatly. The relationship between Peter and Freeman was well brought across.

On to part II: I can't help but feel a little disappointed that the same standard was not reached. Like others have commented, it seemed padded in parts. The Klingon subplot never felt necessary. Kargh spends most of his time watching TV, with a few quips spoken to remind us he's still there. It felt rather like scenes were included to bring in John Carrigan once again. Strangely enough, while I loved him in "In Harms Way" as Kirk's first officer in the alternate timeline, I've never been as satisfied with him as a main timeline Klingon. The performances never seemed as lively. Either way, the Klingon subplot could have either been tightened or excluded altogether with no negative impact to the story.

Freeman's suicide was pretty much expected, but happened a little soon for me. The only real surprise was that he was dead as the episode hit the halfway mark. This left the rest of the episode filled by the Klingon plot and the "evil scientist" storyline. Neither of these were as compelling. My only issue with Freeman's death, and Peter's screaming, was more technical than storywise: it was obvious a few lines were looped more than once to pad out Peter's wailing. I didn't think it was all that necessary - being a fan of "less is more." A few lines of Peter's crying could have been cut and made the impact as strong. It was a lead weight (intentionally) to fade out on his sobs, but would it really have been blasted across the bridge? And would Kirk have to give the order to shut it off more than once? Maybe, but it felt dragged.

I enjoyed Bobby Rice's performance for the most part. I look forward to seeing him in future episodes where he's not in emotional agony.

The "evil scientist" plot was a little "meh" probably because of the completely over done performance. Denise Crosby was fine, but her role was underwritten and her sacrifice was less powerful because we didn't get to know her. Her subsequent transformation was very nicely done, however, the shot of her flying about outside seemed to go on a little too long. There really is a huge feel of padding in this part. This would have been fine as a standard length episode with the blood worm / love story - and that's it. Kirk's final scene with Peter could have been shorter, too.

McCoy's excitement in creating the cure and rattling things off to his nurse was great - but the argument with Kirk in the transporter room was over the top. It wouldn't have been had there been a conversation leading up to Bones' adversarial attitude. I know, he's an old friend and can anticipate Kirk's objections, but "real" McCoy wouldn't have just exploded on him. A few lines of dialog of Kirk objecting, culminating in him ordering Bones off the pad would have been a good enough trigger for the shouting. Bones usually doesn't get in Kirk's face without provocation - the guy IS the captain, friend or not.

I'm really getting used to James Cawley in the role. It took a while, if only because Shatner's Kirk is generally pretty bold and larger than life, while Cawley's Kirk is more low key. Acting styles are different and that's fine. But then we get the shout of "Kargh you FOOL!" which seemed very out of character for this Kirk. It was also not properly motivated. Like the McCoy scene, this outburst didn't have an appropriate lead in. Maybe toning it down a little would have worked, but I think more dialog would have helped.

Some of the music placement was redundant, with a few cues edited to be much longer than originally, which was obvious to me (film and TV scores are my main musical interest). Again, part I was superior in that regard.

It's hard to keep your actors when you can't pay them. So changes in key players is to be expected. It's a shame it has to be someone as important as Spock. While I was not Jeff Quinn's biggest fan, I did very much enjoy his work in "World Enough and Time." Still, I was looking forward to Ben Tolpin, who looked more appropriate. Sadly, his Spock is very nasal and whiny. I was disappointed. I am looking forward to Brandon Stacey's performance, hoping the third try is the charm.

I know this is coming off as a huge batch of criticism, please realize that I really enjoyed the first part and loved WEAT. I was really used to that standard of story and direction, and felt that Part II really fell short of the bar you have set and raised. Honestly, IMO, the biggest issue is in the pacing and editing.

However, it was really amazing to finally see Cawley's Kirk haul off a clout a guy. Just dial down the sound effect a little. ;-)

If I can suggest something, or at least tell you what I would like: stronger stories involving your three major characters. There has been a tendency to give the lion's share of the story to your guests, which kind of makes sense if you want to entice them. But I'd love to see a Kirk/Spock/McCoy heavy episode, where they do what they do to solve the episode's problem. Spock has really been shortchanged, with very few good scenes with Kirk and McCoy. And more DeSalle. He rocks. Ron Boyd is my favorite supporting guy.

Other strengths: new Uhura - she's great and gorgeous. Effects: top class, thanks for no longer using the "shooting the Enterprise out of a slingshot" type warp-out.

Oh, I know most people loved the design of the other ship, but I don't get it. It looks like the saucer was beamed in the middle of the drive section, upside down. It was just weird… Having said that…

Thanks for making it. All of it.
 
Just watched the final cut of Part II (so far, it appears to only be available on YouTube), and even though I saw the earlier temp cut, so I knew what was coming, I literally got goosebumps watching this.

Outstanding job. Kudos all around.
 
Just watched the final cut of Part II (so far, it appears to only be available on YouTube), and even though I saw the earlier temp cut, so I knew what was coming, I literally got goosebumps watching this.

Outstanding job. Kudos all around.

Thanks for the comments.

Yes--uploaded to YouTube but not yet uploaded to our dedicated streaming host. We're working on it.

(C'mon, Robert. If you're out there, get with it. What are we paying you for?)
 
Speaking as a TOS-fan since I was a boy, and who is also gay, I have never felt so touched and have never felt a story so close to home as this one. It's the first time in my life that such a thing has happened with a Trek story in the many, many years I have been watching. I applaud the effort of the filmmakers to finally bring these characters to the screen.

Speaking also as a aspiring filmmaker myself, I tip my hat to you guys!
 
Just watched the final cut of Part II (so far, it appears to only be available on YouTube), and even though I saw the earlier temp cut, so I knew what was coming, I literally got goosebumps watching this.

Outstanding job. Kudos all around.

Thanks for the comments.

Yes--uploaded to YouTube but not yet uploaded to our dedicated streaming host. We're working on it.

(C'mon, Robert. If you're out there, get with it. What are we paying you for?)

LoL Greg!!! I've been out spending that negative few hundred a month on new toys!!!

Check your email...


Folks:
It will be on DNA (and the mirror sites) soon folks... we're waiting on a couple more of the high res files.

-R
 
So any movement on this? The next one will be out before this sucker gets uploaded!

I've seen the final audio mixes via youtube, and some kindly chap on the Phase II forum did his own mux as a divx movie, but the quality is not as good as the official part 1 that is available from DNA and the mirror sites, would love to have the finished version as a proper DL, it's a fantastic episode.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top