Peak Performance: Why did Picard not want a combat ready crew?

[Nightdiamond]

When I watch certain episodes, sometimes I see a military organization that is in deep denial that it is the military.

In DS9, the Feds and the Dominion were holding negotiations and they want a certain sector with a certain planet in it.

They were running out of Ketracel White. Without it, the Jem Hadar would start shutting down, going mad and dying. They were desperate.

Dr. Bashir discovers that the planet has the components they need to produce the stuff indefinitely. You would think Bashir's idea would be to stall forever and deny them the planet.

Bashir reccommends they give them the planet, because if they didn't, the Dominion would be forced to attack, and it would "be devastating for both sides".

Why would Starfleet care about casulaties on the enemy fighter's side? Better yet, why give an enemy bent on destroying you the resources they need to keep fighting?

Because according to this type of thinking, they're too afraid of any attack from the enemy?

The Jericho situation-I understand the crew being cautious, but then I wondered were they being a bit too cautious, considering that Jericho was right anyway?

I had to wonder how the TNG era Starfleet would fare against the Dominion in a war.

 

[R. Star]

Even all the way up to DS9's season 7 it basically took Martok giving Admiral Ross a boot in the ass to get the Federation to go on the offensive.

If the Dominion attacked the moment Sisko discovered them(DS9 season 2, TNG season 7), it wouldn't even be close. That was awfully nice of them to give the Federation over two years to get ready.

 

[Timo]

From any sensible strategic point of view, an infinite standoff would be preferable to military victory, as long as it doesn't tie down excessive resources. The UFP is not short on anything and has no desire to expand. OTOH, it has zero hope of eliminating the offensive potential of the Dominion by fighting its small Alpha beachhead force. So it has no use for a victory! All it needs is a non-defeat.

The only question is, does the enemy agree to an infinite standoff, or does it want a victory for some reason? The Feds didn't really know. They had heard harsh words from Founder representatives who appeared to want to subjugate all Solids, but OTOH the war so far had been fought in terms of pure realpolitik. The Dominion had not, say, "broken out of confinement", but had rather responded to Starfleet mining shut the wormhole. The Federation had not, say, "taken back Alpha territory", but had rather struck at Dominion shipyards to hinder attempts at expansion. Any grabbing of territory that followed appeared to be the inevitable result of the decision of plunging into a war in the first place, rather than a step-by-step master plan for achieving predefined victory conditions.

Starfleet (the Federation Starfleet, not the Earth Starfleet) is obviously military.

The United Earth Starfleet is obviously a fighting force. It has lots of armed starships in the 2150s, yet NX-01 is the first one ever credited with an exploration mission.

The UFP Starfleet is obviously a fighting force, too, but unlike the UE one, it's not exclusively a fighting force. The thing we can argue about is whether being a fighting force means being a military...

Intriguingly, Admiral Forrest in ENT contrasts the Starfleet fighting force with "the military" explicitly, in "The Expanse". More specifically, his concern is whether Archer will approve of having his heavily armed troops joined and perhaps replaced by the Military Assault Command's heavily armed troops. Such a contrasting happens exactly once in the TV show; it also happens exactly once in TNG. Perhaps for the very same reason in both?

Neither Archer nor Picard is opposed to the concept of having a ship full of heavily armed troops as such, very much to the contrary. But both seem to have an antipathy towards "the military". It should be easy enough to assume that the two skippers are simply engaged in very traditional interservices rivalry here: they prefer the Navy fighting force to the Army one!

"Military", after all, is the correct expression for an exclusively land-based fighting force, and the opposite of "Navy" or "Fleet". Oh, in the past century or so, an alternate interpretation of the terminology has emerged - but it's quite possible that by the 22nd century, things have reverted back to how they used to be, and "Military Command" and "Starfleet Command" are two rival defense/offense organizations in the UE, and perhaps also later in the UFP.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Use of Time]

From any sensible strategic point of view, an infinite standoff would be preferable to military victory, as long as it doesn't tie down excessive resources. The UFP is not short on anything and has no desire to expand. OTOH, it has zero hope of eliminating the offensive potential of the Dominion by fighting its small Alpha beachhead force. So it has no use for a victory! All it needs is a non-defeat.

The only question is, does the enemy agree to an infinite standoff, or does it want a victory for some reason? The Feds didn't really know. They had heard harsh words from Founder representatives who appeared to want to subjugate all Solids, but OTOH the war so far had been fought in terms of pure realpolitik. The Dominion had not, say, "broken out of confinement", but had rather responded to Starfleet mining shut the wormhole. The Federation had not, say, "taken back Alpha territory", but had rather struck at Dominion shipyards to hinder attempts at expansion. Any grabbing of territory that followed appeared to be the inevitable result of the decision of plunging into a war in the first place, rather than a step-by-step master plan for achieving predefined victory conditions.

Starfleet (the Federation Starfleet, not the Earth Starfleet) is obviously military.

The United Earth Starfleet is obviously a fighting force. It has lots of armed starships in the 2150s, yet NX-01 is the first one ever credited with an exploration mission.

The UFP Starfleet is obviously a fighting force, too, but unlike the UE one, it's not exclusively a fighting force. The thing we can argue about is whether being a fighting force means being a military...

Intriguingly, Admiral Forrest in ENT contrasts the Starfleet fighting force with "the military" explicitly, in "The Expanse". More specifically, his concern is whether Archer will approve of having his heavily armed troops joined and perhaps replaced by the Military Assault Command's heavily armed troops. Such a contrasting happens exactly once in the TV show; it also happens exactly once in TNG. Perhaps for the very same reason in both?

Neither Archer nor Picard is opposed to the concept of having a ship full of heavily armed troops as such, very much to the contrary. But both seem to have an antipathy towards "the military". It should be easy enough to assume that the two skippers are simply engaged in very traditional interservices rivalry here: they prefer the Navy fighting force to the Army one!

"Military", after all, is the correct expression for an exclusively land-based fighting force, and the opposite of "Navy" or "Fleet". Oh, in the past century or so, an alternate interpretation of the terminology has emerged - but it's quite possible that by the 22nd century, things have reverted back to how they used to be, and "Military Command" and "Starfleet Command" are two rival defense/offense organizations in the UE, and perhaps also later in the UFP.

Timo Saloniemi

Agree with everything but the last paragraph. The correct expression for a "land based fighting force" would be Army. The term "Military" is an expression of any fighting force serving as an extension of a Government.

 

[Timo]

Not if you speak about these things in the 18th century or earlier. Amusingly, even Wiktionary gives the meaning "military = land army" as one option despite this being outdated usage nowadays; the "military = armed forces in general" usage slowly began to gain in popularity in the 19th century. But we might argue that it's a passing fad, and things will return back to normal by the 22nd century again.

Before the Napoleonic times, it's pretty clear why the military and the navy were two very different things. Only the latter needed to be standing in order to be effective; the former was a fundamentally different, impromptu thing, being funded only when absolutely necessary, and sometimes rather poorly even then. Today, even a conscript army needs to have a standing core in order to amount to anything, while amusingly navies are having to resort to using civilian vessels to a greater and greater degree after a brief peak of standing military transport resources in the 20th century.

In the era of Archer's adventures, a standing army could again be a thing of the distant past, and therefore so perfectly analogous to the original usage of "military" that this usage would again be adopted. A standing navy would clearly still exist, however - even if UESF has to beg for starlift capability from ECS or whatever.

Picard's dislike of the Military would be quite natural, then: his own men and women are professionals, in no need of the brainless drills that the amateurs at the Military have to be daily subjected to lest they lose their battleworthiness altogether. Archer's dislike is merely speculation by Forrest, but could be even more understandable because Archer, the famous son of the great warp engineer, appears to be one of the few UESF skippers unaccustomed to combat and specifically oriented towards exploration.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Use of Time]

Not if you speak about these things in the 18th century or earlier. Amusingly, even Wiktionary gives the meaning "military = land army" as one option despite this being outdated usage nowadays; the "military = armed forces in general" usage slowly began to gain in popularity in the 19th century. But we might argue that it's a passing fad, and things will return back to normal by the 22nd century again.

Before the Napoleonic times, it's pretty clear why the military and the navy were two very different things. Only the latter needed to be standing in order to be effective; the former was a fundamentally different, impromptu thing, being funded only when absolutely necessary, and sometimes rather poorly even then. Today, even a conscript army needs to have a standing core in order to amount to anything, while amusingly navies are having to resort to using civilian vessels to a greater and greater degree after a brief peak of standing military transport resources in the 20th century.

In the era of Archer's adventures, a standing army could again be a thing of the distant past, and therefore so perfectly analogous to the original usage of "military" that this usage would again be adopted. A standing navy would clearly still exist, however - even if UESF has to beg for starlift capability from ECS or whatever.

Picard's dislike of the Military would be quite natural, then: his own men and women are professionals, in no need of the brainless drills that the amateurs at the Military have to be daily subjected to lest they lose their battleworthiness altogether. Archer's dislike is merely speculation by Forrest, but could be even more understandable because Archer, the famous son of the great warp engineer, appears to be one of the few UESF skippers unaccustomed to combat and specifically oriented towards exploration.

Timo Saloniemi

I think we are going into the weeds so to speak. I understand the terminology is pre 18th century and has evolved to what it is now. I don't know why we would assume it would naturally revert back in the 22nd century.

Picard is the consumate professional and is definitely protrayed that way. He has Starfleet tactical officers on his ship. I just feel that this mission was just as common as a planetary survey for a geologist team on the ship. As a CO you naturally have to maintain a state of readiness for every department under your command. I also don't believe he would consider any military drill "brainless" as he was very proud of Riker while they were playing the game when he said, "he's the best!"

At the end of the day I think we all know what that scene was; a way to placate Roddenberry's utopian slumber party in space.

 

[Timo]

I don't know why we would assume it would naturally revert back in the 22nd century.

To explain why Starfleet is not a "military" organization (even when it obviously is), that's why! Always challenge the definitions.

If we don't explain away these things, we leave our heroes looking pretty stupid. Which I'd rather not do.

I also don't believe he would consider any military drill "brainless" as he was very proud of Riker while they were playing the game when he said, "he's the best!"

But in this interpretation, a "military" drill would be brainless specifically in comparison with what his clever officers were doing. Picard would be saying "We are not a military organization" because he wanted to say "We don't see any point in marching in formation back and forth a parade field, like those stupid infantrymen from the Military" - it was a fundamental sentiment he wanted to express, not a specific objection to the wargame scenario they ended up playing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Use of Time]

Maybe it's me but I'm just not understanding what you are trying to say in that last paragraph. I don't think Picard is comparing Starfleet to anything. I guess I just don't get the analogy to the infantry, which I might find pretty insulting considering who I used to work for.

 

[Timo]

Well, it's only Picard who's insulting the infantry, not me, in this dashing theory that is quite detached from what I might be personally thinking.

I'm just trying to pretend that Picard is saying "Starfleet is not a Military organization" because he feels that Military organizations in his time are conscript armies full of incompetent weekend warriors doing stupid drills they desperately need because they don't have any real professional training, and Starfleet is not like this at all.

...Which is why Picard never utters the word "military" again in his life. It's just not related to Starfleet in any way, much like "army" is not part of the Navy vocabulary.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MikeS]

It has just dawned on me what a great precursor to BOBW this episode is! Picard admitting that the Borg threat is something to be taken seriously. Riker v Picard. Riker outgunned and relying on guile to win the day.

 

[Use of Time]

Well, it's only Picard who's insulting the infantry, not me, in this dashing theory that is quite detached from what I might be personally thinking.

I'm just trying to pretend that Picard is saying "Starfleet is not a Military organization" because he feels that Military organizations in his time are conscript armies full of incompetent weekend warriors doing stupid drills they desperately need because they don't have any real professional training, and Starfleet is not like this at all.

...Which is why Picard never utters the word "military" again in his life. It's just not related to Starfleet in any way, much like "army" is not part of the Navy vocabulary.

Timo Saloniemi

Timo, love you like a brother but I think we have wandered off the reservation on this one. You are defininitely the thinking man's Star Trek fan. I've enjoyed this discussion. Thanks.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Even all the way up to DS9's season 7 it basically took Martok giving Admiral Ross a boot in the ass to get the Federation to go on the offensive.

If the Dominion attacked the moment Sisko discovered them(DS9 season 2, TNG season 7), it wouldn't even be close. That was awfully nice of them to give the Federation over two years to get ready.

Starfleet just doesn't seem to want identify itself with being military to the point of doing some odd things-like having families and children on board.

The idea is nice, but at the same time, the question is to Starfleet, "what are you exactly?"

They insist on being called explorers, yet are the only ones called upon to defend the Federation from threats--so you might have a ship carrying children suddenly having to fight off a Dominion Battle cruiser.

Even in Insurrection, the Enterprise was out exploring archaeological sites supposedly when the war was going on full strength.

When I first saw these episodes, I thought all their actions were pretty normal, but once the reruns start, you just have to notice these things.

It's funny, but other peaceful cultures like the Bajorans have no problem calling their defense forces the military, and one could argue they are very peaceful race.