• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Paramount/JJ trying another Trek movie (that will probably never get made).

STID is actually only a "mediocre bad movie". It's not worse than, say, the G.I. Joe movie, or "battleship". In fact, some parts and scenes in it are actually quite good.

It only turns bad once you have some insight knowledge of Star Trek...

I have to disagree on this. The movie might at a very surface level feel like a good actiony movie, but if you think about any aspect of it for more than a second it all collapses into a pile of drivel and little to none of it has anything to do with prior Trek knowledge. When you pile on top all of the things that make no sense Trek-wise (e.g., the Khan reveal), it gets even worse.

[/Rant - written right after I saw the movie that one time, so some of this might be a little off.]

- The one really strong character moment for Kirk is when he apologizes to the crew that he screwed up and they are all going to die - but then they don't, so everything is fine and no one has a learn a lesson after all.

- If it had been done correctly, the emotional scene of Kirk's death and Spock's understanding of friendship would have been really powerful - but these characters have only known each other for about 1 year at this point. These characters are just starting to know each other; this is a one-year friendship ending, not a 20+ one.

- So Spock Prime vowed never to reveal future information? Except when he gave Scotty and all of Starfleet a magical equation for transwarp beaming that allows people to apparently beam anywhere in the galaxy that they would like. And he violates that oath again by telling NuSpock all about Khan.

- So the whole (if small) crew of the USS Vengeance is perfectly willing to destroy the flagship of the Federation and all her crew - who just saved the entire Federation and billions of lives 1 year ago - because they were trying to stop a preemptive war? Where did we recruit these sociopaths?

- So Section 31, the most efficient and most secret intelligence organization in the galaxy, was able to build a giant complex underground in the heart of London with no one knowing, but then their giant ship construction yard out in space is so totally unprotected that a lone and fired officer with no information but a set of coordinates wanders into it, gets onboard their megastarship and sabotages it?

- So the Flagship and the Vengeance have a firefight in space, basically in orbit of earth. Two issues with this: first they were traveling at warp to get from the edge of Klingon space to earth, but they only were at warp for about 20 seconds because right after they jump to warp, Kirk is warned that it won't work because Marcus has advanced warp drive and weapons and almost before the warning can be completed, the Vengeance attacks and knocks the Enterprise out of warp. So the Enterprise comes crashing out of warp, totally out of control and totally unexpectedly, they end up only about 200,000 miles from earth. If they had stayed at warp for another fraction of a second they would have either crashed into earth or blown right past it?

Second, where is everyone else? Everywhere is deserted throughout the whole movie. No one shows up in time to stop Khan's attack on Starfleet HQ except a couple of security redshirts. No one shows up at the Klingon border. Only a couple of small, random patrol craft show up on Qo'nos - the capital of the entire Klingon empire. No one shows up to stop Scotty outside the shipyard at Jupiter. Only 1 security officer shows up to stop Scotty in the hanger bay. And no one comes to the scene of this massive Starfleet vs. Starfleet battle in earth orbit?

- What was Marcus's plan? Start a war with the Klingons by getting them to destroy the Flagship of the fleet. So does he accept Kirk's offer to fly directly to Qo'nos to kill Khan and get the war started? No, he has a super complicated plan to get Kirk near Klingon space, have him attack from long range, get stranded and then get destroyed. And how does that work out? The Enterprise is disabled before they even complete their mission. Luckily for Marcus, Kirk manages to violate Klingon space in another manner. Why disable the Enterprise before their mission succeeds? Kirk has no incentive at that time to fire the torpedoes - Khan doesn't even know he is coming until Sulu sends his asinine message. Why (in the original plan) wouldn't they just fix the engines, then fire the torpedoes and not risk getting killed by the Klingons?

- How can you possibly detect and track one man on a planet lightyears away? I guess with new transwarp beaming you can do anything. So, why, once Kirk decides to capture Khan, do they not use the transwarp equation to beam him up from Qo'nos? Clearly any regular transporter system can be quickly and easily modified to do the job (as seen in Star Trek 2009)? And apparently the equation is simple once you know the trick. It takes Scotty about 2 seconds to understand where his existing formulation had been incorrect.

- Kirk, via general broadcast, warns Khan that he is coming. Maybe. Kinda. He apparently has Sulu broadcast a message directed at an entire random province of Qo'nos. Does Khan have a communications device? Unknown. Will Khan receive the message? Unknown. Will Khan care about the message? Unknown. Isn't giving the fugitive very advanced notice that you are coming to arrest him really stupid? Wouldn't he be able to then hide, get on a ship, transport away, block your sensors, or any of a dozen different things?

- Well, how about why does Kirk order the warning transmission? Does he think Khan will give up? I guess so. Someone who bombed a major Earth city, attacked a Starfleet HQ session killing many people, who then beamed to Qo'nos to apparently live a life on the run amongst bloodthirsty Klingons - I am sure that person is just going to give up when you say you can possibly, maybe kill him with torpedoes sometime in the future, if he doesn't run away, if he hears you. Or if Kirk is trying to be honorable about this "arrest" by broadcasting a warning first, why is he ok with just violating Klingon space which could trigger a war?

- And coincidentally, they haven't even gotten to Khan when they are attacked and forced to land by some Klingons, and somehow despite how large the province likely is, Khan shows up on foot within about 3 minutes of them landing. I got over Kirk, Spock Prime, and Scotty running into each other on Delta Vega in Star Trek (2009) because it was fate bringing them back together, but fate also decided that Kirk and Khan needed to meet on Qo'nos?

- So Kirk flies in, destroys three or more patrol ships and crews, and gets out; no Klingon ships follow up on this attack, no one tracks him. The Enterprise is hanging there is space, immobile for a long time and nothing happens? If Kirk had fired the secret, special long range torpedoes, as per the original mission orders, no Klingons would have apparently come then either. And how could Marcus get revenge on Khan via the torpedoes, when they would likely only launch 1, killing only 1 augment. Why would Kirk ever fire all 72 torpedoes at Qo'nos to kill one guy?

- So what was Khan's plan? Based on his dialogue with Kirk, he tried to smuggle his crew away from Section 31 by hiding them in the torpedoes. With that amount of access, he could have woken them up or simply taken them away, but instead he goes to all the time and effort of swapping out the internals of 72 super torpedoes and replacing them with cryo-tubes. This has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. When he is discovered, he is led to believe his crew was killed and he escapes. He blows up Section 31 in London, then attacks Admiral Marcus and escapes to Qo'nos. But he didn't even manage to kill Admiral Marcus! He could have transported into the building and walked right up to Marcus at any time and shot him and them beamed out with his backpack-sized transporter, but he didn't. And when he has failed in his mission to kill the one person he most wanted to kill, then he just runs away without trying again?

- And why does he run to Qo'nos? Because the Federation cannot go there is the stated answer. How convenient, the one place Admiral Marcus wants to attack. Why didn't he go to Romulus or hundreds of other worlds outside of the Federation that Starfleet can't get to? Why not simply transport to the farthest place reachable so no one comes for you? This coincidence makes it seem like Admiral Marcus was still manipulating Khan's actions. So either Marcus is a terrible war planner and can't manage to get this war actually started (which we already knew) or Khan is a terrible assassin and doesn't care that he failed.

- At one point Kirk orders Khan moved to sickbay? Why? No reason. He tells Marcus that Khan is in engineering. Why? No reason. Does it matter? No. Khan just sits around in sickbay for a while. What is his goal? Nothing, he just sits there. What is his long term goal? Apparently to sit around until Kirk decides that they need to go on an away mission to the Vengeance which, luckily, he can take over as it is the only ship that can be manned by a very small crew compliment.

- Carol Marcus does nothing in the whole movie. She shows up and tells Kirk only things that he gets also from Khan. She doesn't even know as much info as Khan does about the torpedoes, nor are her skills needed to open the torpedo; McCoy does that. She doesn't even know the first thing about them until she scans them. Also, she claims she knows everything about her father's technology developments. If that were true, that would include Khan and his backstory because that is the source of the new weapons tech. Except she doesn't care about any of that - none of the coercion or hostage holding, none of the secret military ship building, or plotting against the Klingons. She either knows nothing about any of it and is thus useless, or knows all of it but doesn't care. So why is she here again? Oh yeah, to take off her clothes for no reason.

[/end rant]
 
I have to disagree on this. The movie might at a very surface level feel like a good actiony movie, but if you think about any aspect of it for more than a second it all collapses into a pile of drivel and little to none of it has anything to do with prior Trek knowledge. When you pile on top all of the things that make no sense Trek-wise (e.g., the Khan reveal), it gets even worse.

[/Rant - written right after I saw the movie that one time, so some of this might be a little off.]

- The one really strong character moment for Kirk is when he apologizes to the crew that he screwed up and they are all going to die - but then they don't, so everything is fine and no one has a learn a lesson after all.

- If it had been done correctly, the emotional scene of Kirk's death and Spock's understanding of friendship would have been really powerful - but these characters have only known each other for about 1 year at this point. These characters are just starting to know each other; this is a one-year friendship ending, not a 20+ one.

- So Spock Prime vowed never to reveal future information? Except when he gave Scotty and all of Starfleet a magical equation for transwarp beaming that allows people to apparently beam anywhere in the galaxy that they would like. And he violates that oath again by telling NuSpock all about Khan.

- So the whole (if small) crew of the USS Vengeance is perfectly willing to destroy the flagship of the Federation and all her crew - who just saved the entire Federation and billions of lives 1 year ago - because they were trying to stop a preemptive war? Where did we recruit these sociopaths?

- So Section 31, the most efficient and most secret intelligence organization in the galaxy, was able to build a giant complex underground in the heart of London with no one knowing, but then their giant ship construction yard out in space is so totally unprotected that a lone and fired officer with no information but a set of coordinates wanders into it, gets onboard their megastarship and sabotages it?

- So the Flagship and the Vengeance have a firefight in space, basically in orbit of earth. Two issues with this: first they were traveling at warp to get from the edge of Klingon space to earth, but they only were at warp for about 20 seconds because right after they jump to warp, Kirk is warned that it won't work because Marcus has advanced warp drive and weapons and almost before the warning can be completed, the Vengeance attacks and knocks the Enterprise out of warp. So the Enterprise comes crashing out of warp, totally out of control and totally unexpectedly, they end up only about 200,000 miles from earth. If they had stayed at warp for another fraction of a second they would have either crashed into earth or blown right past it?

Second, where is everyone else? Everywhere is deserted throughout the whole movie. No one shows up in time to stop Khan's attack on Starfleet HQ except a couple of security redshirts. No one shows up at the Klingon border. Only a couple of small, random patrol craft show up on Qo'nos - the capital of the entire Klingon empire. No one shows up to stop Scotty outside the shipyard at Jupiter. Only 1 security officer shows up to stop Scotty in the hanger bay. And no one comes to the scene of this massive Starfleet vs. Starfleet battle in earth orbit?

- What was Marcus's plan? Start a war with the Klingons by getting them to destroy the Flagship of the fleet. So does he accept Kirk's offer to fly directly to Qo'nos to kill Khan and get the war started? No, he has a super complicated plan to get Kirk near Klingon space, have him attack from long range, get stranded and then get destroyed. And how does that work out? The Enterprise is disabled before they even complete their mission. Luckily for Marcus, Kirk manages to violate Klingon space in another manner. Why disable the Enterprise before their mission succeeds? Kirk has no incentive at that time to fire the torpedoes - Khan doesn't even know he is coming until Sulu sends his asinine message. Why (in the original plan) wouldn't they just fix the engines, then fire the torpedoes and not risk getting killed by the Klingons?

- How can you possibly detect and track one man on a planet lightyears away? I guess with new transwarp beaming you can do anything. So, why, once Kirk decides to capture Khan, do they not use the transwarp equation to beam him up from Qo'nos? Clearly any regular transporter system can be quickly and easily modified to do the job (as seen in Star Trek 2009)? And apparently the equation is simple once you know the trick. It takes Scotty about 2 seconds to understand where his existing formulation had been incorrect.

- Kirk, via general broadcast, warns Khan that he is coming. Maybe. Kinda. He apparently has Sulu broadcast a message directed at an entire random province of Qo'nos. Does Khan have a communications device? Unknown. Will Khan receive the message? Unknown. Will Khan care about the message? Unknown. Isn't giving the fugitive very advanced notice that you are coming to arrest him really stupid? Wouldn't he be able to then hide, get on a ship, transport away, block your sensors, or any of a dozen different things?

- Well, how about why does Kirk order the warning transmission? Does he think Khan will give up? I guess so. Someone who bombed a major Earth city, attacked a Starfleet HQ session killing many people, who then beamed to Qo'nos to apparently live a life on the run amongst bloodthirsty Klingons - I am sure that person is just going to give up when you say you can possibly, maybe kill him with torpedoes sometime in the future, if he doesn't run away, if he hears you. Or if Kirk is trying to be honorable about this "arrest" by broadcasting a warning first, why is he ok with just violating Klingon space which could trigger a war?

- And coincidentally, they haven't even gotten to Khan when they are attacked and forced to land by some Klingons, and somehow despite how large the province likely is, Khan shows up on foot within about 3 minutes of them landing. I got over Kirk, Spock Prime, and Scotty running into each other on Delta Vega in Star Trek (2009) because it was fate bringing them back together, but fate also decided that Kirk and Khan needed to meet on Qo'nos?

- So Kirk flies in, destroys three or more patrol ships and crews, and gets out; no Klingon ships follow up on this attack, no one tracks him. The Enterprise is hanging there is space, immobile for a long time and nothing happens? If Kirk had fired the secret, special long range torpedoes, as per the original mission orders, no Klingons would have apparently come then either. And how could Marcus get revenge on Khan via the torpedoes, when they would likely only launch 1, killing only 1 augment. Why would Kirk ever fire all 72 torpedoes at Qo'nos to kill one guy?

- So what was Khan's plan? Based on his dialogue with Kirk, he tried to smuggle his crew away from Section 31 by hiding them in the torpedoes. With that amount of access, he could have woken them up or simply taken them away, but instead he goes to all the time and effort of swapping out the internals of 72 super torpedoes and replacing them with cryo-tubes. This has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. When he is discovered, he is led to believe his crew was killed and he escapes. He blows up Section 31 in London, then attacks Admiral Marcus and escapes to Qo'nos. But he didn't even manage to kill Admiral Marcus! He could have transported into the building and walked right up to Marcus at any time and shot him and them beamed out with his backpack-sized transporter, but he didn't. And when he has failed in his mission to kill the one person he most wanted to kill, then he just runs away without trying again?

- And why does he run to Qo'nos? Because the Federation cannot go there is the stated answer. How convenient, the one place Admiral Marcus wants to attack. Why didn't he go to Romulus or hundreds of other worlds outside of the Federation that Starfleet can't get to? Why not simply transport to the farthest place reachable so no one comes for you? This coincidence makes it seem like Admiral Marcus was still manipulating Khan's actions. So either Marcus is a terrible war planner and can't manage to get this war actually started (which we already knew) or Khan is a terrible assassin and doesn't care that he failed.

- At one point Kirk orders Khan moved to sickbay? Why? No reason. He tells Marcus that Khan is in engineering. Why? No reason. Does it matter? No. Khan just sits around in sickbay for a while. What is his goal? Nothing, he just sits there. What is his long term goal? Apparently to sit around until Kirk decides that they need to go on an away mission to the Vengeance which, luckily, he can take over as it is the only ship that can be manned by a very small crew compliment.

- Carol Marcus does nothing in the whole movie. She shows up and tells Kirk only things that he gets also from Khan. She doesn't even know as much info as Khan does about the torpedoes, nor are her skills needed to open the torpedo; McCoy does that. She doesn't even know the first thing about them until she scans them. Also, she claims she knows everything about her father's technology developments. If that were true, that would include Khan and his backstory because that is the source of the new weapons tech. Except she doesn't care about any of that - none of the coercion or hostage holding, none of the secret military ship building, or plotting against the Klingons. She either knows nothing about any of it and is thus useless, or knows all of it but doesn't care. So why is she here again? Oh yeah, to take off her clothes for no reason.

[/end rant]

TL;DR:razz:

I mean, yeah, you're 100% right (at least on the points I did read).
But at the same time, any other movie of this type (G.I. Joe, Transformers franchises, maybe even M:I) will have a similar number of stupid things in them

These types of movies aren't meant to be analyzed this hard. This ain't no 2001: Space Odyssee.

In fact, even some of the old movies have problems. What did OG Khan actually want to do with a Genisis device? Where did the planet come from when it was exploded inside a nebula? Why did Ckekhovs ear worm just drop out by itself?

What matters is of the overall movie still holds somewhat together. ST2009 did for many (even for me 50%). STID simply did not. Yes, it's not a good movie. But I have seen so. many. worse. And many of them much more successful (like, half the non-MCU superhero stuff).
 
ID makes as much as much sense as any other Trek film, and a lot more sense than many other action films I've watched. Most of the MCU films I am rewatching exist in the same vein, and ID pains me a lot less than the MCU mixed bag garbage.
 
why does a former dictator planning to conquer a world want a super weapon?

But did he? He seems more revenge-driven than domination-driven in that movie. At no point did he ever uttered "An then I'm going to EARTH!" (And that's a GOOD thing!)
 
At one point Kirk orders Khan moved to sickbay? Why? No reason. He tells Marcus that Khan is in engineering. Why? No reason.
This post is the most TL;DR thing ever, but this little point I scrolled to? It's Kirk telling Marcus a blatant lie, showing the audience he's 100% off his side. And Khan is in sickbay because McCoy wants to run tests on the regenerative properties of his blood, which comes up important at the end.
2013 called, they want their post back.
 
But did he? He seems more revenge-driven than domination-driven in that movie. At no point did he ever uttered "An then I'm going to EARTH!" (And that's a GOOD thing!)
personally yes, he was revenge driven. But after that the plan was the same he had in the TOS episode: finding a good planet to conquer and start his empire. Joakim actually points out to him that with a ship and the genesis torpedo they can go anywhere they want and do whatever they want.
 
I have to disagree on this. The movie might at a very surface level feel like a good actiony movie, but if you think about any aspect of it for more than a second it all collapses into a pile of drivel and little to none of it has anything to do with prior Trek knowledge. When you pile on top all of the things that make no sense Trek-wise (e.g., the Khan reveal), it gets even worse.

[/Rant - written right after I saw the movie that one time, so some of this might be a little off.]

- The one really strong character moment for Kirk is when he apologizes to the crew that he screwed up and they are all going to die - but then they don't, so everything is fine and no one has a learn a lesson after all.

- If it had been done correctly, the emotional scene of Kirk's death and Spock's understanding of friendship would have been really powerful - but these characters have only known each other for about 1 year at this point. These characters are just starting to know each other; this is a one-year friendship ending, not a 20+ one.

- So Spock Prime vowed never to reveal future information? Except when he gave Scotty and all of Starfleet a magical equation for transwarp beaming that allows people to apparently beam anywhere in the galaxy that they would like. And he violates that oath again by telling NuSpock all about Khan.

- So the whole (if small) crew of the USS Vengeance is perfectly willing to destroy the flagship of the Federation and all her crew - who just saved the entire Federation and billions of lives 1 year ago - because they were trying to stop a preemptive war? Where did we recruit these sociopaths?

- So Section 31, the most efficient and most secret intelligence organization in the galaxy, was able to build a giant complex underground in the heart of London with no one knowing, but then their giant ship construction yard out in space is so totally unprotected that a lone and fired officer with no information but a set of coordinates wanders into it, gets onboard their megastarship and sabotages it?

- So the Flagship and the Vengeance have a firefight in space, basically in orbit of earth. Two issues with this: first they were traveling at warp to get from the edge of Klingon space to earth, but they only were at warp for about 20 seconds because right after they jump to warp, Kirk is warned that it won't work because Marcus has advanced warp drive and weapons and almost before the warning can be completed, the Vengeance attacks and knocks the Enterprise out of warp. So the Enterprise comes crashing out of warp, totally out of control and totally unexpectedly, they end up only about 200,000 miles from earth. If they had stayed at warp for another fraction of a second they would have either crashed into earth or blown right past it?

Second, where is everyone else? Everywhere is deserted throughout the whole movie. No one shows up in time to stop Khan's attack on Starfleet HQ except a couple of security redshirts. No one shows up at the Klingon border. Only a couple of small, random patrol craft show up on Qo'nos - the capital of the entire Klingon empire. No one shows up to stop Scotty outside the shipyard at Jupiter. Only 1 security officer shows up to stop Scotty in the hanger bay. And no one comes to the scene of this massive Starfleet vs. Starfleet battle in earth orbit?

- What was Marcus's plan? Start a war with the Klingons by getting them to destroy the Flagship of the fleet. So does he accept Kirk's offer to fly directly to Qo'nos to kill Khan and get the war started? No, he has a super complicated plan to get Kirk near Klingon space, have him attack from long range, get stranded and then get destroyed. And how does that work out? The Enterprise is disabled before they even complete their mission. Luckily for Marcus, Kirk manages to violate Klingon space in another manner. Why disable the Enterprise before their mission succeeds? Kirk has no incentive at that time to fire the torpedoes - Khan doesn't even know he is coming until Sulu sends his asinine message. Why (in the original plan) wouldn't they just fix the engines, then fire the torpedoes and not risk getting killed by the Klingons?

- How can you possibly detect and track one man on a planet lightyears away? I guess with new transwarp beaming you can do anything. So, why, once Kirk decides to capture Khan, do they not use the transwarp equation to beam him up from Qo'nos? Clearly any regular transporter system can be quickly and easily modified to do the job (as seen in Star Trek 2009)? And apparently the equation is simple once you know the trick. It takes Scotty about 2 seconds to understand where his existing formulation had been incorrect.

- Kirk, via general broadcast, warns Khan that he is coming. Maybe. Kinda. He apparently has Sulu broadcast a message directed at an entire random province of Qo'nos. Does Khan have a communications device? Unknown. Will Khan receive the message? Unknown. Will Khan care about the message? Unknown. Isn't giving the fugitive very advanced notice that you are coming to arrest him really stupid? Wouldn't he be able to then hide, get on a ship, transport away, block your sensors, or any of a dozen different things?

- Well, how about why does Kirk order the warning transmission? Does he think Khan will give up? I guess so. Someone who bombed a major Earth city, attacked a Starfleet HQ session killing many people, who then beamed to Qo'nos to apparently live a life on the run amongst bloodthirsty Klingons - I am sure that person is just going to give up when you say you can possibly, maybe kill him with torpedoes sometime in the future, if he doesn't run away, if he hears you. Or if Kirk is trying to be honorable about this "arrest" by broadcasting a warning first, why is he ok with just violating Klingon space which could trigger a war?

- And coincidentally, they haven't even gotten to Khan when they are attacked and forced to land by some Klingons, and somehow despite how large the province likely is, Khan shows up on foot within about 3 minutes of them landing. I got over Kirk, Spock Prime, and Scotty running into each other on Delta Vega in Star Trek (2009) because it was fate bringing them back together, but fate also decided that Kirk and Khan needed to meet on Qo'nos?

- So Kirk flies in, destroys three or more patrol ships and crews, and gets out; no Klingon ships follow up on this attack, no one tracks him. The Enterprise is hanging there is space, immobile for a long time and nothing happens? If Kirk had fired the secret, special long range torpedoes, as per the original mission orders, no Klingons would have apparently come then either. And how could Marcus get revenge on Khan via the torpedoes, when they would likely only launch 1, killing only 1 augment. Why would Kirk ever fire all 72 torpedoes at Qo'nos to kill one guy?

- So what was Khan's plan? Based on his dialogue with Kirk, he tried to smuggle his crew away from Section 31 by hiding them in the torpedoes. With that amount of access, he could have woken them up or simply taken them away, but instead he goes to all the time and effort of swapping out the internals of 72 super torpedoes and replacing them with cryo-tubes. This has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. When he is discovered, he is led to believe his crew was killed and he escapes. He blows up Section 31 in London, then attacks Admiral Marcus and escapes to Qo'nos. But he didn't even manage to kill Admiral Marcus! He could have transported into the building and walked right up to Marcus at any time and shot him and them beamed out with his backpack-sized transporter, but he didn't. And when he has failed in his mission to kill the one person he most wanted to kill, then he just runs away without trying again?

- And why does he run to Qo'nos? Because the Federation cannot go there is the stated answer. How convenient, the one place Admiral Marcus wants to attack. Why didn't he go to Romulus or hundreds of other worlds outside of the Federation that Starfleet can't get to? Why not simply transport to the farthest place reachable so no one comes for you? This coincidence makes it seem like Admiral Marcus was still manipulating Khan's actions. So either Marcus is a terrible war planner and can't manage to get this war actually started (which we already knew) or Khan is a terrible assassin and doesn't care that he failed.

- At one point Kirk orders Khan moved to sickbay? Why? No reason. He tells Marcus that Khan is in engineering. Why? No reason. Does it matter? No. Khan just sits around in sickbay for a while. What is his goal? Nothing, he just sits there. What is his long term goal? Apparently to sit around until Kirk decides that they need to go on an away mission to the Vengeance which, luckily, he can take over as it is the only ship that can be manned by a very small crew compliment.

- Carol Marcus does nothing in the whole movie. She shows up and tells Kirk only things that he gets also from Khan. She doesn't even know as much info as Khan does about the torpedoes, nor are her skills needed to open the torpedo; McCoy does that. She doesn't even know the first thing about them until she scans them. Also, she claims she knows everything about her father's technology developments. If that were true, that would include Khan and his backstory because that is the source of the new weapons tech. Except she doesn't care about any of that - none of the coercion or hostage holding, none of the secret military ship building, or plotting against the Klingons. She either knows nothing about any of it and is thus useless, or knows all of it but doesn't care. So why is she here again? Oh yeah, to take off her clothes for no reason.

[/end rant]
Yawn - I happen to like ST: ID a lot (it shares the top spot with the film it played homage to in a lot of it's scenes) BUT - if you analyze STII: TWoK it too has a lot of non-sensical stuff that fans just gloss over because it's very entertaining (as was ST: ID IMO).

And instead of re-typing, I'll just link/repost what I've said before on STII:TWoK (and understand I LOVE the film myself):
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/str...g-new-characters.306390/page-31#post-14001134
If they find it entertaining enough they won't 'turn on it' due to continuity violations - Hell STII:TWoK is proof at that. It's considered the best of all Styar Trek films even with the fact that:

The fact a Federation Starship and it's sensors systems and crew FAILED to recognized the Ceti Alpha system had changed - and planet orbits shifted due to one of the planets in said system exploding - and somehow mistook Ceti Alpha VI for Ceti Alpha V.:rofl:

The Character of Pavel Chekov was NEVER in the TOS S1 Space Seed episode (as the character hadn't even been created or cast yet when that episode was written or filmed); so there was no way Kahn could have seen his face to "never forget" it in the first place.

Khan himself is well aware of the actual year (2282) - yet when making his speech to Chekov and Co. says: "On Earth 200 years ago..." <--- Really? The Botany Bay launched in 1996. 286 years ago...what, did Kahn forget nearly a century? (And yes, I know the reason the line is as it is because in TOS S1 - Space Seed; Khan was told on screen it was estimated that 2 centuries passed so that was a literal call back to the episode.) But yes, Khan can remember with clear specificity how many years ago he was left on Ceti Alpha V, and also when Ceti Alpha VI exploded, but he can't adjust now that he should know way more than 200 years have passed since he was a despotic dictator of an old Earth nation state?

The fact Kirk himself forgot about the fact that he HAS 'faced death' like he did with Spock - and did so in the second pilot episode of Star Trek S1 - "Where No Man Has Gone Before", in that he was forced to kill his close friend of 12 years - Gary Mitchell (which he had served with and was friends with him to the point he asked for Gary Mitchell to be posted go the Enterprise, his first Command) <--- But of course didn't jive with the way the writers of STII:TWoK wanted to portray Kirk, so of course Kirk forgot...
^^^^
yes, all these continuity errors, yet you don't see many Star Trek fans with torches and pitchforks decrying STII:TWoK as 'not Trek' or it's producers and writers described as 'not knowing Star Trek history...'

Will the same 'Treksperts' on Youtube (like Small...er DoomCock et. al.) decry SNW as an affront to "Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek"? Absolutely. But overall Star Trek fans seems very forgiving if they find something very entertaining to them in a good way.

And WRT the Captain Kirk Storyline in STII:TWoK of "I've not faced death...not like this"...:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/star-trek-discovery-4x01-kobayashi-maru.309703/page-21#post-13955975
BS - Kirk learned that in the TOS second pilot - "Where No Man Has Gone Before". Kirk's relationship to Gary Mitchell at that time was very much like his relationship to Spock after 15+ years of serving together. The ONLY difference in tat we (the audience got to see that Kirk/Spock relationship develop; where in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"; the 'depth of the Kirk/Mitchell relationship was stated in dialogue.

But yes, Kirk made the hard choice of finally having to kill Gary Mitchell because there was no other way; and he made (and was ready to make - see TOS S1 - "Operation Annihilate" ) many other similar - so no it wasn't a lesson Kirk didn't learn until STII:TWoK; he was a GOOD Captain with the proper instincts, experience, and emotional capacity to very effectively take on the mantle of Starship command...

WRT canon and character consistency - STII:TWoK share the same issue with the rest of the Trek films. In the end it's always been: "The story we're telling today in this film..." that have guided the writing - continuity and character consistency with respect to previous Star Trek be damned.

IMO ST: ID is nowhere NEAR as bad as STV:TFF <-- The WORST film of the run (and I'm a old TOS fan <--- IMO it's STILL the best Star trek iteration and best time period for Star Trek); ST:NEM and ST:INS, or ST:GEN.
 
WRT canon and character consistency - STII:TWoK share the same issue with the rest of the Trek films. In the end it's always been: "The story we're telling today in this film..." that have guided the writing - continuity and character consistency with respect to previous Star Trek be damned.
And what's more interesting is watching fan reactions. When they are engaged with the characters, fully engaged, then demining consistency is perfectly fine.
 
The difference actually being - the writing on TWOK was miles better.

It's easy to overlook a few inconsistencies if they make sense from a character perspective. Kirk not raising the shields early was a fumble. But him not being top of his game anymore was a big part of the movie itself. Uhura throwing a relationship tantrum in the middle of an undercover extortion mission was not just wildly inappropriate, but also went very much against her character (hell, in the previous movie she kept her snark to a minimum and followed Kirks's orders during the Kubayashi Maru training mission, because that's what you have to do on a mission. Here she "shushes" the Captain in a life-or-death situation? Wtf?)
 
The difference actually being - the writing on TWOK was miles better.

It's easy to overlook a few inconsistencies if they make sense from a character perspective. Kirk not raising the shields early was a fumble. But him not being top of his game anymore was a big part of the movie itself. Uhura throwing a relationship tantrum in the middle of an undercover extortion mission was not just wildly inappropriate, but also went very much against her character (hell, in the previous movie she kept her snark to a minimum and followed Kirks's orders during the Kubayashi Maru training mission, because that's what you have to do on a mission. Here she "shushes" the Captain in a life-or-death situation? Wtf?)
Because she knows that Spock is compromised and that will compromise the mission. She knows they all are struggling and can't focus on the mission.

Made sense to me.

The writing in WOK is better. ID is still a good movie.
 
The difference actually being - the writing on TWOK was miles better.

It's easy to overlook a few inconsistencies if they make sense from a character perspective. Kirk not raising the shields early was a fumble. But him not being top of his game anymore was a big part of the movie itself. Uhura throwing a relationship tantrum in the middle of an undercover extortion mission was not just wildly inappropriate, but also went very much against her character (hell, in the previous movie she kept her snark to a minimum and followed Kirks's orders during the Kubayashi Maru training mission, because that's what you have to do on a mission. Here she "shushes" the Captain in a life-or-death situation? Wtf?)
Umm..as much as I love the film, no, it really wasn't. None of the films hold a candle to some of the very spectacular writing on the best of the TOS episodes. Overall I still enjoy the TOS series way more than any of the TOS inspired feature films (Including the 3 JJ Abrams films.) In the TOS series you have Kirk and McCoy arguing over a minor personnel disagreement (see TOS S1 - "The Corbomite Maneuver") MINUTES before the ship itself is slated to be utterly destroyed by a vessel that outclasses the 1701 in a MAJOR way. So, what TOS characters bringing up weird character drama during a crisis is suddenly unusual for a Trek series or film? :crazy::rommie: - what show have you been watching? Star Trek adherence to 'military protocol' overall has always been dependent on the story they are telling and the only thing consistent about it in Star Trek is that it's inconsistent between characters.

As for ST:TWoK vs ST: ID - please. There are plenty of examples of ridiculous writing in TWoK aside from what I mentioned previously.

For example:

- Why do Chekov and Terrell have to exit Khan's cargo container to beam back up? As soon as Chekov realizes/sees 'Botany Bay' (which he shouldn't recognize at all, but I digress); they should tap the communicators on the suit and transport up.

- I'm also annoyed by the fact that once they have the brain leeches in Chekov and Terrell; it's just a forgone conclusion Khan will have the Reliant. PLENTY of TOS episode had Kirk under mind control/ or otherwise compromised; but the ship wasn't automatically taken over. Khan had what? 20 followers vs a crew of 100 - 200? But we the audience never see it (not to mention how Khan can run a starship effectively and in combat with only 20 or so not really trained crew?)

- I really hated the fact they showed Khan firing a 'warning shot' before the 1701 made it to the nebula. If he/the Reliant were more than a match for the 1701 and in weapons range WHY is the supposed high intellect/military genius who conquered 1/4 of the world in the late 20th century hold file and waiting for the 1701 to enter the nebula and disappear?

We could go back and forth with various examples; but I would just daresay you could find ridiculous writing even in the BEST Trek series or film, so it's best to take each entry as a whole and just ask yourself in the end - "Did I like it/Was it enjoyably entertaining to me?..." <--- And that answer is going to vary WILDLY across the Trek fan spectrum for practically anything produced "in" the Star Trek franchise.

ETA:
Oh and as far as really hackneyed writing for Star Trek II; DON'T probe too far as to why Spock had to physically go into a chamber and physically move whatever 'control rods' or whatever he did to "get the Mains back online".

I say that because Scotty states: "I have to take the Mains off the line...It's radiation..."
^^^
If somehow the radiation required the mains to be taken offline; and that radiation situation hasn't changed (and it mustn't have or Scotty would have had the mains back online when Kirk called for it). So yeah you're going to tell me that "putting the mains" of an Anti-Matter reactor requires someone going in there and manually manipulating the rods with their hands?:wtf::rofl:

And if your response was "the environment was such that the automated rod pushers wouldn't work..."

Seriously? IF that were in fact the case; I'd say the environment would be so hazardous that they was no way Spock or any biological life form could survive long enough to do what in manually required to get the Mains back online. IF the Mains could be brought back online to allow the 1701 to make a quick warp speed 'jump to just get beyond the 'death range' of the Genesis Device detonation - Scotty should have been able to push a button (or series of buttons) like he often did 15 years earlier during the run of the original Star Trek series.

So, WHY does this scene/situation exist as it does? To give the character of Mr. Spock an honorable and heroic (even if the reasoning behind everything involved makes no logical sense) death scene.

It works for what it is - but the scene itself (beyond the McCoy/Spock <- which Nimoy improvised btw - and Kirk/Spock 'last death sequence' lines - is hardly 'good writing'.
 
Last edited:
Umm..as much as I love the film, no, it really wasn't. None of the films hold a candle to some of the very spectacular writing on the best of the TOS episodes. Overall I still enjoy the TOS series way more than any of the TOS inspired feature films (Including the 3 JJ Abrams films.) In the TOS series you have Kirk and McCoy arguing over a minor personnel disagreement (see TOS S1 - "The Corbomite Maneuver") MINUTES before the ship itself is slated to be utterly destroyed by a vessel that outclasses the 1701 in a MAJOR way. So, what TOS characters bringing up weird character drama during a crisis is suddenly unusual for a Trek series or film? :crazy::rommie: - what show have you been watching? Star Trek adherence to 'military protocol' overall has always been dependent on the story they are telling and the only thing consistent about it in Star Trek is that it's inconsistent between characters.

As for ST:TWoK vs ST: ID - please. There are plenty of examples of ridiculous writing in TWoK aside from what I mentioned previously.

For example:

- Why do Chekov and Terrell have to exit Khan's cargo container to beam back up? As soon as Chekov realizes/sees 'Botany Bay' (which he shouldn't recognize at all, but I digress); they should tap the communicators on the suit and transport up.

- I'm also annoyed by the fact that once they have the brain leeches in Chekov and Terrell; it's just a forgone conclusion Khan will have the Reliant. PLENTY of TOS episode had Kirk under mind control/ or otherwise compromised; but the ship wasn't automatically taken over. Khan had what? 20 followers vs a crew of 100 - 200? But we the audience never see it (not to mention how Khan can run a starship effectively and in combat with only 20 or so not really trained crew?)

- I really hated the fact they showed Khan firing a 'warning shot' before the 1701 made it to the nebula. If he/the Reliant were more than a match for the 1701 and in weapons range WHY is the supposed high intellect/military genius who conquered 1/4 of the world in the late 20th century hold file and waiting for the 1701 to enter the nebula and disappear?

We could go back and forth with various examples; but I would just daresay you could find ridiculous writing even in the BEST Trek series or film, so it's best to take each entry as a whole and just ask yourself in the end - "Did I like it/Was it enjoyably entertaining to me?..." <--- And that answer is going to vary WILDLY across the Trek fan spectrum for practically anything produced "in" the Star Trek franchise.
Well, damn. That puts my response to shame.
 
ETA:
Oh and as far as really hackneyed writing for Star Trek II; DON'T probe too far as to why Spock had to physically go into a chamber and physically move whatever 'control rods' or whatever he did to "get the Mains back online".

I say that because Scotty states: "I have to take the Mains off the line...It's radiation..."
^^^
If somehow the radiation required the mains to be taken offline; and that radiation situation hasn't changed (and it mustn't have or Scotty would have had the mains back online when Kirk called for it). So yeah you're going to tell me that "putting the mains" of an Anti-Matter reactor requires someone going in there and manually manipulating the rods with their hands?:wtf::rofl:

And if your response was "the environment was such that the automated rod pushers wouldn't work..."

Seriously? IF that were in fact the case; I'd say the environment would be so hazardous that they was no way Spock or any biological life form could survive long enough to do what in manually required to get the Mains back online. IF the Mains could be brought back online to allow the 1701 to make a quick warp speed 'jump to just get beyond the 'death range' of the Genesis Device detonation - Scotty should have been able to push a button (or series of buttons) like he often did 15 years earlier during the run of the original Star Trek series.

So, WHY does this scene/situation exist as it does? To give the character of Mr. Spock an honorable and heroic (even if the reasoning behind everything involved makes no logical sense) death scene.

It works for what it is - but the scene itself (beyond the McCoy/Spock <- which Nimoy improvised btw - and Kirk/Spock 'last death sequence' lines - is hardly 'good writing'.

Funny that you chose exactly this scene - the one that STID completely copied 1:1, up to the dialogue, just without understanding it and making no sense at all (WARP DRIVE needs a powerfull reactor working. Just firing your boosters to not drop into atmosphere should have no relation at all with a radiation chamber!)

(The scene in TWOK by the way was inspired by nuclear powered submarines, where in worst cases, personel had to go into the reaction chamber to repair stuff, only to be radiated. So there's actual, real life precedent).

Won't go into the other nitpicks - thing is, most of these have rather obvious or very much implied reasons. If something's obvious, you don't need to explain the details (beaming up from pre-planned landing coordinates might be easier than from within an unknown structure in the middle of a sand storm). You need to explain shit when it DOESN'T line up with what we already know (aka "why can we beam through shields/to other planets now").

TWOK is marvelously written. And still has flaws. As has any movie.
But It's still on a whole other level above anything made by Roland Emmerich, Zack Snyder, JJ Abrams or whoever Hollywoods current popcorn moneyboy is.
 
the one that STID completely copied 1:1, up to the dialogue, just without understanding it and making no sense at all (WARP DRIVE needs a powerfull reactor working. Just firing your boosters to not drop into atmosphere should have no relation at all with a radiation chamber!)
They already had problems with the warp drive. Made sense in the context of the film.

If something's obvious, you don't need to explain the details (beaming up from pre-planned landing coordinates might be easier than from within an unknown structure in the middle of a sand storm). You need to explain shit when it DOESN'T line up with what we already know (aka "why can we beam through shields/to other planets now").
It was obvious and didn't need explaining.

Reliant fucking up royal on the Ceti Alpha planetary arraignment is unforgivable.
 
Reliant fucking up royal on the Ceti Alpha planetary arraignment is unforgivable.

"Reality is often unrealistic":
Planets don't just hang neatly organised around in a solar system. In fact, we still don't know exactly how many planetary bodies we have in OUR system!
That part was actually more realistic than people believed. Planets are hard to see in space. But people thought it was "wrong" because planets are so easy to find and count on a poster! (similar to people mocking Riker's joystick in "Insurrection": An EXCELLENT control mechanism to navigate a 3-dimensional space!)
 
Last edited:
just without understanding it and making no sense at all (WARP DRIVE needs a powerfull reactor working. Just firing your boosters to not drop into atmosphere should have no relation at all with a radiation chamber!)
They needed the warp core online, it wasn't just the thrusters keeping them up.

But seriously, you're missing the point if you're fixated on the details of the warp core failure over the realisation of the meaning of friendship in ID and the sacrifice of a beloved friend in WoK.
 
"Reality is often unrealistic":
Planets don't just hang neatly organised around in a solar system. In fact, we still don't know exactly how many planetary bodies we have in OUR system!
That part was actually more realistic than people believed. Planets are hard to see in space. But people thought it was "wrong" because planets are so easy to find and count on a poster! (similar to people mocking Riker's joystick in "Insurrection": An EXCELLENT control mechanism to navigate a 3-dimensional space!)
This isn't reality though. This is Star Trek. The fact that they had been to the system before but never looked at it since and couldn't figure out that a planet had exploded smacks of unprofessional behavior, borderline incompetence.
 
"Reality is often unrealistic":
Planets don't just hang neatly organised around in a solar system. In fact, we still don't know exactly how many planetary bodies we have in OUR system!
That part was actually more realistic than people believed. Planets are hard to see in space. But people thought it was "wrong" because planets are so easy to find and count on a poster! (similar to people mocking Riker's joystick in "Insurrection": An EXCELLENT control mechanism to navigate a 3-dimensional space!)
Starfleet ships have sensors that can scan light-years ahead of their course. Trying to defend the fact that the Reliant as it approached a solar system couldn't tell that there was shifted orbits, or a new debris field in the system 15 years after the initial explosion dot-dot...

Yeah give me a break.

And by the way with your example of nuclear submarines being a basis for the scene; if it was a coolant leak and Spock went in there with a welder, that would be a basis for scene ' based on reality'. Going in there with gloves and waving your hands through radioactive dust dot...Sorry no.

Make no mistake I'm not trying to defend the partly written scenes in STID (and there were a number of them) - I just disagree with your assessment that overall, STII:TWoK was "better written" in comparison.
 
But seriously, you're missing the point if you're fixated on the details of the warp core failure over the realisation of the meaning of friendship in ID and the sacrifice of a beloved friend in WoK.
That whole scene made a ton of sense from a character perspective in TWOK. And putting the exact scene in an alternate timeline, for essentially new characters at wildly different points in their life, just didn't.
Your mileage may vary on this though.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top