Opinions on The Omega Glory

[Anticitizen]

With all that I have going on right now, dude, I actually didn't even recall our discussion/debate until your brought it up...

Since it is 'black' history month, you find many who will use the terms 'African-American'...and 'black' (maybe 'brown' or even 'chocolate')...interchangeably.

One thing I never got to mention in that previous thread: I live in the Miami area, an area in which your typical black resident has a 80% probability of being of Haitian descent and doesn't identify as being African in any way (the original departure from Africa is forgotten to history). In fact, the population of Haitians living here is sufficient enough that the local NPR affiliate down here broadcasts a news and information segment in Haitian Creole every night at 9 pm.

You might be able to successfully interchange the words 'black' and 'African American' in some parts of the country, but this isn't one of them - and the first time I was corrected, by a Haitian, was the moment I became sensitive to the need for distinction.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

First off, you mentioned 'Suzie Wong;' a show that many Asian Americans figure believe is stereotypical.

How so?

Based on what I've read of the character: A sexually available, submissive Asian female.

With all that I have going on right now, dude, I actually didn't even recall our discussion/debate until your brought it up...

Since it is 'black' history month, you find many who will use the terms 'African-American'...and 'black' (maybe 'brown' or even 'chocolate')...interchangeably.

One thing I never got to mention in that previous thread: I live in the Miami area, an area in which your typical black resident has a 80% probability of being of Haitian descent and doesn't identify as being African in any way (the original departure from Africa is forgotten to history). In fact, the population of Haitians living here is sufficient enough that the local NPR affiliate down here broadcasts a news and information segment in Haitian Creole every night at 9 pm.

You might be able to successfully interchange the words 'black' and 'African American' in some parts of the country, but this isn't one of them - and the first time I was corrected, by a Haitian, was the moment I became sensitive to the need for distinction.

As aforementioned, black people are not monolithic. We identify ourselves in various ways; like Caucasians do.

From what I've read, various Asian ethnicities distinguish themselves based on their experiences: Either Asian-American, or by their own ethnic background such as 'Vietnamese-American'...'Chinese-American'...or just 'American.'

 

[Expo67]

As much as I find this philosophical debate interesting, including and up to one of France Nuyen's other famous role, let's stick to the main topic, shall we?

 

[plynch]

"At this very moment, I'm actually writing a midterm essay on representations of Asian-Americans in Star Trek. (Mind you, my major is Asian-American studies). Yes, at 12:27am!" - Joel Kirk

In my undergrad days I typically went to the computer lab (the "what"? the youngsters ask) at 12:35. WKBD 50 in Detroit showed two Curlies starting at midnight. A Shemp came on at 12:35.

Off I would go to the lab, then, on the night before [paper X] was due. Not the magic recipe for academic success. Tho life turned out fine, I must say. Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

 

[Anticitizen]

I remember those days. All-nighters, maybe an hour or two of sleep, and the finished pages coming hot of the printer thirty seconds before I ran out the door to make it to class on time.

 

[jayrath]

My only big problem is with how "We the people, of the" became "E plebniste e gorum," or however the Yangs pronounced it. What possible syllabic reading could produce that? Anyone have the actual script text of the Yang reading?

 

[Timo]

Apparently, "E pleb Niste" matches "We the people of the United States", and that's the extent to which they quote the Constitution. Sounds fairly logical. (I don't hear "e gorum" there...)

And the longer quote when the flag is brought in, "Aypledgli ianectu flaggen tupep kile for stahn" is pretty clearly "I pledge alliance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands", with the ill fitting "America" bit apparently excised from the middle of the pledge.

Probably a fairly realistic take on how a text like that would be verbally preserved across centuries by completely illiterate people. The Yangs may have been a bit more literate for a couple of centuries after the war and only gradually lost the ability to read, explaining why the text isn't mangled even worse.

...My beef is how Kirk remembers the words better than Cloud William, apparently without the benefit of a chain of ancestors teaching them by rote. Is it just because he's a fan of US history (at least certain 19th century bits of it), or was there a nationalist in the family?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GSchnitzer]

My only big problem is with how "We the people, of the" became "E plebniste e gorum," or however the Yangs pronounced it. What possible syllabic reading could produce that? Anyone have the actual script text of the Yang reading?

The preamble to the Constitution is, of course:

"We, the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union...."

The dialog that Cloud William speaks, as best as I can make it out is:

"Ee'd pleb neesta norkor forkom perfectoonum...."

The actual scripted printed dialog from the December 15, 1967 Revised Final Draft script for "The Omega Glory" Scene 149, verbatim is:

"Ee'd pebnista nordor formor pur fektunun...."

This would appear to mean:

Ee'd = We the

Pebnista = People of the United States

Nordor = In order

Formor = Form a more

Pur fektunun = Perfect union

 

[T'Girl]

... or was there a nationalist in the family?

Given the long lingering look he gives old glory in the last scene, the America nationalist in Kirk's family would seem to have been Kirk himself.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ I don't recall any indications anywhere in TOS, in this episode or any other, that the United States wasn't still in existence at the time. Why wouldn't Kirk recognize its flag and Constitution? He is certainly familiar with other elements of "Americana," from Abraham Lincoln ("The Savage Curtain") to the Great Depression ("The City on the Edge of Forever"). The countries of Earth (with the possible exception of getting along with each other a bit better) don't seem to be significantly different in Kirk's time from our present day. Hell, Chekov is even portrayed as being from Russia, complete with heavy accent.

 

[scotpens]

I don't recall any indications anywhere in TOS, in this episode or any other, that the United States wasn't still in existence at the time. Why wouldn't Kirk recognize its flag and Constitution? He is certainly familiar with other elements of "Americana," from Abraham Lincoln ("The Savage Curtain") to the Great Depression ("The City on the Edge of Forever").

Not to mention the gunfight at the OK Corral, a trivial event in American history.

Hell, Chekov is even portrayed as being from Russia, complete with heavy accent.

And a very strong sense of nationalistic pride.

"It was inwented by a little old lady from Leningrad!"

 

[Harvey]

Not to mention the gunfight at the OK Corral, a trivial event in American history.

Definitely trivial, but also definitely mythologized in movies, television, and literature to a significant extent.

 

[GSchnitzer]

And, of course, Kirk knows passages from John Maesfield and D.H Lawrence by heart, too. I myself know passages from Shakespeare from 400 years ago. It's very likely that everyone knows bits from the Constitution--even if it doesn't stem from a sense of pride. It looks like the Constitution, like the Bible and the Fundamental Declaration of the Martian Colonies and the Statutes of Alpha III, is one of The Greats of literature.

I don't recall any indications anywhere in TOS, in this episode or any other, that the United States wasn't still in existence at the time. Why wouldn't Kirk recognize its flag and Constitution? He is certainly familiar with other elements of "Americana," from Abraham Lincoln ("The Savage Curtain") to the Great Depression ("The City on the Edge of Forever").

Not to mention the gunfight at the OK Corral, a trivial event in American history.

Hell, Chekov is even portrayed as being from Russia, complete with heavy accent.

And a very strong sense of nationalistic pride.

"It was inwented by a little old lady from Leningrad!"

 

[T'Girl]

Hell, Chekov is even portrayed as being from Russia, complete with heavy accent.

And a very strong sense of nationalistic pride.

Judging by his dress uniform, Scotty has a fair amount of pride in being a Scot.

Interestingly, not a similar level of pride in being a "Brit."

 

[Timo]

Why wouldn't Kirk recognize its flag and Constitution?

Recognize, yes. Accurately quote... Well, that takes some learning. Would Kirk learn the words if it weren't required reading for him? And if it is required reading, what does it tell about the society Kirk grew in?

1) That Iowans are expected to know and respect what their American ancestors achieved?
2) That Earthlings are expected to know and respect what their Earthling ancestors achieved, regardless of whether they were one's direct ancestors or the folks who slaughtered one's direct ancestors?
3) That accurate quoting of historical documents (and, say, great poetry and religious texts) is considered part of the general educational program, regardless of the documents' relation to the individual?

Many of the characters seem able to quote at least short snippets of the Bible, without being portrayed as particularly Christian. OTOH, Kirk is definitely personally interested in the United States, although apparently mainly in the 19th and early 20th centuries (he's more or less lost in the late 20th), and could be familiar with the document even if 99,999,999 out of 100,000,000 Earthlings (and 9 out of 10 Iowans) in his time are not.

Interesting that the flag appears to be of the 50-star variety, BTW. If we assume it was introduced to Omega by a time traveler, then apparently this time traveler was a fan of that specific period in US history, rather than, say, the period when the Constitution was written.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

It's funny, but when I was growing up, every Georgia school child was taught and made to memorize the preamble to the Constitution, made to memory Frost's "The Road Not Taken" and even Hamlet's soliloquy. I remember all three of them to this day, some 40 years later. Who's to say what Kirk knows by heart from his childhood?

 

[GSchnitzer]

It's funny, but when I was growing up, every Georgia school child was taught and made to memorize the preamble to the Constitution, made to memory Frost's "The Road Not Taken" and even Hamlet's soliloquy. I remember all three of them to this day, some 40 years later. Who's to say what Kirk knows by heart from his childhood?

And that's especially true if Kirk was (will be?) a "stack of books with legs" who's really interested in "that longhair stuff."

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Exactly, Gary.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So a bunch of Trek fans, who can quote dialog from a show produced over 40 years ago, have trouble with James Kirk, a proven student of American History, knowing the preamble to the US Constitution????

 

[Anticitizen]

So a bunch of Trek fans, who can quote dialog from a show produced over 40 years ago, have trouble with James Kirk, a proven student of American History, knowing the preamble to the US Constitution????

Touche.