Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

[JustKate]

Okay, I didn't put any emoticons in my post, but I didn't exactly write it with a straight face either

But Braga's shippercide tendencies are interesting none the less (He killed Neelix/Kess too, for crying out loud ).

You got me, Mach - I had no idea you were kidding or at least half-kidding. ::whew::

Honestly, I think all episodic TV is at times guilty of shippercide (I do admire your term here). The writers or TPTB or somebody wants new stuff all the time, and they seem to think that watching two people grow in a relationship would be boring for fans (those that aren't fans of that particular 'ship, anyway).

And you know, a lot of times, they're right. But not always. I do think they might sometimes give us some credit for a little bit of maturity now and then.

That said, my reaction to the end of the Kes/Neelix relationship was "Thank goodness." Yeah. Not a fan of that one at allllllll.

Edit: Oh, and I was not a fan of J/C either - not while they're in the DQ (afterwards might have been nice, depending on how it was done). When it comes to romantic relationships for the captain or the first officer with members of the crew, I am quite the hardliner. Really.

 

[teya]

Although it's clearly not something to be advertised here, I happened to like C/7 and have written a few fanfics.

Surprisingly enough, they are intelligently written and I've gotten some wonderful reviews.

http://www.fanfiction.net/u/154772/Teya

 

[JustKate]

At least a few people have agreed with you, Teya. And of course if you write anything it would be "intelligently written." I'm being sincere here.

 

[Mach5]

Honestly, I think all episodic TV is at times guilty of shippercide (I do admire your term here).

Thank you very much.

That said, my reaction to the end of the Kes/Neelix relationship was "Thank goodness." Yeah. Not a fan of that one at allllllll.

Personally, I hated Neelix with a passion, and hated his pedophilia even more.

Edit: Oh, and I was not a fan of J/C either - not while they're in the DQ (afterwards might have been nice, depending on how it was done). When it comes to romantic relationships for the captain or the first officer with members of the crew, I am quite the hardliner. Really.

We're on a same boat here. For a captain, subordinates are off-limits. Such is the order of things.

 

[teya]

At least a few people have agreed with you, Teya. And of course if you write anything it would be "intelligently written." I'm being sincere here.

Well, thanks.

I completely agree that the relationship wasn't handled well on screen, but then Trek has never been particularly good when it comes to relationships.

 

[es!]

C/7 works for me in Teya's fic only. It was handled awfully on screen. Although "Human Error" is one of my favorite episodes.

 

[JustKate]

We're on a same boat here. For a captain, subordinates are off-limits. Such is the order of things.

Yay! I know (from "The Great J/C Thread," which you will find farther down in this forum), that lots of people here disagree with us on this, but not everybody.

At least a few people have agreed with you, Teya. And of course if you write anything it would be "intelligently written." I'm being sincere here.

Well, thanks.

You're welcome!

I completely agree that the relationship wasn't handled well on screen, but then Trek has never been particularly good when it comes to relationships.

Exactly. I mentioned in my first post in this thread that it might have been OK if it had been handled better. But yeah...not something Trek has been good at. Up until now. So...we'll see, eh?

 

[teya]

Responding to es!

Well, thanks.

Now that I think about it, very often I like 'ships that inspire me creatively. There doesn't have to be a lot there, just a spark.

And I'm absolutely rigid on one thing--if it's a sci-fi 'ship, there's got to be something sci-fi about it, else what's the point? Interspecies relationships, a human and a former Borg, couples from different times...

 

[Zameaze]

Chakotay & Seven are like Demi Moore & Ashton Kutcher.
You know they're together but you're not exactly sure why.

Meh, Demi fell for Ashton because he's young and gorgeous, and Ashton fell for Demi probably because she was his pubertal fantasy.

But why would Seven fall for a guy with a probable secret crush on his captan, who likely had a latent girlcrush on her?

Rank.

As a Borg, Seven was made to respect a chain of authority.
Chakotay is First Officer, thus the Alpha Male on Voyager.
His rank to Seven would give him appeal.

Mach 5, Ashton is young and gorgeous? I was thinking more like doofy & talentless. Demi has the money, being an actress/producer. He just riding her coat tails. Can you say: Male J-Lo?

Alpha male behavior doesn’t explain the sum total of human male conduct. We are complicated beasts, and the dark cave of our mind still harkens back to the primeval.

Much of our behavior is rooted at a level of development that’s below the cognitive and is motivated by inherent drives that come from a nonlinguistic, ancient part of our brain. Our conscious minds try to come up with convincing reasons for us to explain our behavior to ourselves, and think that they are dealing with facts while, in reality, they are being led a merry chase. We may have abandoned chimpanzee ways, but most men must admit that the blatant sexuality of a Seven of Nine does incite a degree of visceral lust.

Chakotay would most likely not ‘choose’ Janeway if Seven were available unless he unconsciously thought that was the best he could do--our self-perception very much influences who we deem a potential lover and our minds convincingly tell us that we chose this person for good reasons (e.g., she's a better conversationalist).

Who Seven would choose is not as easy. As Freud said--"The great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer, despite my thirty years of research into the feminine soul, is 'What does a woman want?'"
-From Sigmund Freud: Life and Work by Ernest Jones, 1953

 

[JustKate]

Why would a Borg respect a "chain of authority"? I mean, Borg Queen aside (and wasn't she really just a voice for the whole?), wasn't the entire collective the "authority"? There was no chain - there was just this gigantic group consciousness. I thought. No?

And Zameaze, there are men who find Janeway beautiful and desirable, too - and I am not just talking about her brain, either. Probably not as many as find Seven beautiful, but still, some would. And others are completely enraptured by Kes or some other character. In my years of "research" (I'm not sure how many since it's kind of hard to say at what age I started, but we are talking decades here), I've found that with men, you just never know what will push each one's individual buttons.

 

[Zameaze]

And Zameaze, there are men who find Janeway beautiful and desirable, too - and I am not just talking about her brain, either. Probably not as many as find Seven beautiful, but still, some would. And others are completely enraptured by Kes or some other character. In my years of "research" (I'm not sure how many since it's kind of hard to say at what age I started, but we are talking decades here), I've found that with men, you just never know what will push each one's individual buttons.

I get serious for once, and no one understands me. That'll teach me.

No it won't--sure, many men would pick Janeway because they really believed that they thought that she was the more desirable of the two. But, in reality, they would be settling for the best that they 'unconsciously' believed they could do.

 

[Daneel]

I have no problem with the idea of C/7 -- it's how it was handled that was so frustrating. I mean, it's the final episode of a long-running series, and you just decide to suddenly pair up two characters out of the blue? No, I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly. Had it not been for "Human Error", in which we learn that Seven is at least attracted to Chakotay, it would have been completely unforgivable. As it is now, it's just a bungled mess -- unfortunately, one of many on Voyager.

And it's not like they had no opportunity. I think "Human Error" showed that there was potential for the development of a C/7 relationship (regardless of the fact that she was interacting with a holographic Chakotay). I remember even Beltran wondering why they didn't follow up on that and have her start a relationship with the real Chakotay. Then you have "Natural Law", just a few episodes before the finale: Chakotay and Seven are actually stranded on a planet together. Despite it being a terrible cliche, that would have been a pretty good time to get the ball rolling on their romantic relationship, since it's clear by now that the producers were planning to give them one in the finale anyway. But no, there isn't even a mention of Seven's attraction to him, no hint of romance. It's just another boring episode that doesn't have anything memorable or important happen.

I can't really say who would be an ideal candidate for Seven's romantic partner -- I'm not even convinced she really needed one, but I suppose the writers wanted to give her a love interest at the last minute to show us how much she'd "grown", but in typical Voyager writer-fashion, they didn't think it through. They probably just figured, hey, we're not doing anything interesting with Chakotay, so why not pair her with him? I don't think I would've had a problem with Harry Kim, the Doctor, or yes, Chakotay, if the writers had actually took the time and care to develop a relationship and let it unfold naturally. Unfortunately, that was never one of the writers' strengths, as they proved time and again.

 

[kimc]

No it won't--sure, many men would pick Janeway because they really believed that they thought that she was the more desirable of the two. But, in reality, they would be settling for the best that they 'unconsciously' believed they could do.

I may be wrong but it sounds like you've never been in love before. Yes, scientists have come up with all kinds of theories over why people choose each other but the true fact is we don't know for sure. A sparkle in someone's eye or the way they walk and suddenly we're smitten - the heck with what anyone else in the room thinks. Or we could look over at someone we think is just a friend and realize "OMG, I'm in love!"

Is Seven the obvious choice for sexual desire? Sure, but desire alone doesn't mean love. Putting aside Seven's emotional state, the difference in ages, the fact he was first officer, etc. there was absolutely no personal chemisty between the two. After everything Seven had been through she deserved someone to "spark" with.

 

[kimc]

Then you have "Natural Law", just a few episodes before the finale: Chakotay and Seven are actually stranded on a planet together. Despite it being a terrible cliche, that would have been a pretty good time to get the ball rolling on their romantic relationship, since it's clear by now that the producers were planning to give them one in the finale anyway.

Rumor has it the two actors asked if they should play an attraction between the two but were told don't bother since nothing would come of it. Perhaps they felt that had already "been done" with "Resolutions". Who knows?

 

[Tachyon]

So...

 

[Zameaze]

ure, many men would pick Janeway because they really believed that they thought that she was the more desirable of the two. But, in reality, they would be settling for the best that they 'unconsciously' believed they could do.

I may be wrong but it sounds like you've never been in love before.

You are not only wrong, you are mega wrong. By the way, a personal attack, no matter how fun, does not make up for a lack of facts.

Yes, scientists have come up with all kinds of theories over why people choose each other but the true fact is we don't know for sure.

It is well known why people choose each other. You just don’t like the answer.

A sparkle in someone's eye or the way they walk and suddenly we're smitten - the heck with what anyone else in the room thinks. Or we could look over at someone we think is just a friend and realize "OMG, I'm in love!"

Sure. But the point is this: We understand why it happens.

Is Seven the obvious choice for sexual desire? Sure, but desire alone doesn't mean love. Putting aside Seven's emotional state, the difference in ages, the fact he was first officer, etc. there was absolutely no personal chemisty between the two. After everything Seven had been through she deserved someone to "spark" with.

All fine and good, but none of that supports your argument that it is not known why human beings fall in love. All you are saying is that most of us don’t know on a conscious level why we fall in love. I agree. In fact, most people don’t want to know--the fairy tales are much more palatable, much more romantic, and much more fun.

By the way, kimc, love ya.

 

[Tachyon]

I am surprised at the Kim/Seven support I am observing here. Why? Because I have always assumed Doctor/Seven pairing was way more popular. (Not to mention that Harry isn't exactly among the most popular characters.) Has poor me been wrong? Perhaps.

 

[Fish1941]

I had no problems with Chakotay and Seven as a couple. Granted, I think that he would have been emotionally more suited for Janeway. And the development of Chakotay and Seven's relationship from hostile in S4 to romantic in S7 was rather interesting to watch.

 

[Zameaze]

Quote by Tachyon: I am surprised at the Kim/Seven support I am observing here. Why? Because I have always assumed Doctor/Seven pairing was way more popular. (Not to mention that Harry isn't exactly among the most popular characters.) Has poor me been wrong? Perhaps.

Were you wrong? Not necessarily--we were given only two choices, so I picked Kim/Seven. If we had been given Doctor/Seven as a choice, I would have picked them. Well, there'll be other polls.

 

[exodus]

Meh, Demi fell for Ashton because he's young and gorgeous, and Ashton fell for Demi probably because she was his pubertal fantasy.

But why would Seven fall for a guy with a probable secret crush on his captan, who likely had a latent girlcrush on her?

Rank.

As a Borg, Seven was made to respect a chain of authority.
Chakotay is First Officer, thus the Alpha Male on Voyager.
His rank to Seven would give him appeal.

Mach 5, Ashton is young and gorgeous? I was thinking more like doofy & talentless. Demi has the money, being an actress/producer. He just riding her coat tails. Can you say: Male J-Lo?

Alpha male behavior doesn’t explain the sum total of human male conduct. We are complicated beasts, and the dark cave of our mind still harkens back to the primeval.

Much of our behavior is rooted at a level of development that’s below the cognitive and is motivated by inherent drives that come from a nonlinguistic, ancient part of our brain. Our conscious minds try to come up with convincing reasons for us to explain our behavior to ourselves, and think that they are dealing with facts while, in reality, they are being led a merry chase. We may have abandoned chimpanzee ways, but most men must admit that the blatant sexuality of a Seven of Nine does incite a degree of visceral lust.

Chakotay would most likely not ‘choose’ Janeway if Seven were available unless he unconsciously thought that was the best he could do--our self-perception very much influences who we deem a potential lover and our minds convincingly tell us that we chose this person for good reasons (e.g., she's a better conversationalist).

Who Seven would choose is not as easy. As Freud said--"The great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer, despite my thirty years of research into the feminine soul, is 'What does a woman want?'"
-From Sigmund Freud: Life and Work by Ernest Jones, 1953

Wow, that's a deeper response than I expected from anyone here.

Thanks, I found it informative.
Being male myself and knowing & having many male friends, I'm not sure we've all abandon our chimp ways. So I can't say I completely agree but it was informative none the less. Thank you for being a breath of fresh air.