Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

[KimMH]

I don't see what the big deal is? Janeway's conciousness is intact inside the Borg Hive mind and it can be downloaded into any drone. She can come back younger or as a man... Though I always did want to see a ninetey foot tall Borg Dinosaur. A ninty foot all Borg dinosaur with kathryn janeways brain patterns.

we already saw the mini version of that when she up and ran away with Tom Paris and they had the giant salamander babies. or maybe Tom ran away with her - Janeway was hinting it might not all have been Tom's idea . . .

 

[Tachyon]

... and I don't think Seven would have acted so cutesy-pie about dating, with her numbering of dates, etc. Seeing them act that way just sets my teeth on edge.

That is one of my biggest problems with C/7. I hated Seven in Endshame. What I had to witness was a total character ruination.

 

[NIUPonyBoy]

I was cheering for 7 and Torres.

 

[freak]

Really NIUPonyBoy? I was thinking more on the lines of J/7.

 

[Lynx]

That would be the definite insult to the J/C-ers and to most of the Janeway fans.

I can't imagine that they would do it because that would confirm my wild theories about them deliberately insulting the fans and that would be too much, wouldn't it?

I don't think they care, to be honest. Trek books aren't published because their fanbase is a source of killer income, and Voyager fans are a remarkably small percentage of their Trek sales anyhow...so really, pissing off a clique of shippers is the least of their worries.

For fun, now, they might do it. Just to read the reactions.

I don't understand how this would be an "insult," Lynx. It certainly wouldn't be for me. I am sorry Janeway is dead, and I was not a fan of C/7 because it was done so...abruptly...and written poorly...but assuming Janeway is dead or at least appears to be for a while, jeez, what's wrong with two characters getting together so long as it's done well? You like both Chakotay and Seven, right? You've said so in the past. Yet you want Chakotay to mourn Janeway forEVER? Can't the guy have a happy ending on any other terms than J/C? Ever?

I think it would be most insulting.

Just look at this, the uproar among the the J/C-ers, the most ardent and loyal group of fans after "Endgame". They had waited for and more and less excepted some sort of "happy ending" between Janeway and Chakotay.

I guess that they could have accepted that nothing had happened and that they could have been allowed to use their own imagination for what happened next. But instead those in charge came up with that C/7 thing which made the J/C-ers dissapointed, annoyed and furious.

After that uproar it was almost logcal that Christie Golden who did care for the characters should break up C/7 which she did and the J7C-ers were happy.

Then the new people in charge kill off Janeway, somnething which have once again annoyed and insulted the most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had. Imagine the reaction if they, on top of that would dig up that dreaded C/7 as more salt in the wounds.

As I said, that would be the definite insult!

AS for Chakotay, why should he have to mourn Janeway forever? Janeway should be brought back, shouldn't she?

And why should he start chasing after Seven, forgetting Janeway just like you switch off a light? What kind of man would that be, his former beloved hasn't got stiff in the grave and he's running back to his old mistress or whatever? It wouldfbe the definite destruction of Chakotay too, making him look even more ridiculous than in "Endgame"

 

[teya]

I don't think they care, to be honest. Trek books aren't published because their fanbase is a source of killer income, and Voyager fans are a remarkably small percentage of their Trek sales anyhow...so really, pissing off a clique of shippers is the least of their worries.

For fun, now, they might do it. Just to read the reactions.

I don't understand how this would be an "insult," Lynx. It certainly wouldn't be for me. I am sorry Janeway is dead, and I was not a fan of C/7 because it was done so...abruptly...and written poorly...but assuming Janeway is dead or at least appears to be for a while, jeez, what's wrong with two characters getting together so long as it's done well? You like both Chakotay and Seven, right? You've said so in the past. Yet you want Chakotay to mourn Janeway forEVER? Can't the guy have a happy ending on any other terms than J/C? Ever?

I think it would be most insulting.

Just look at this, the uproar among the the J/C-ers, the most ardent and loyal group of fans after "Endgame".

Says who?

Who decides what fans are loyal and what aren't?

Since the rest of the post follows from this, nothing more need be said, except that...

Thanks so much for proving my point.

I guess the old wounds aren't as healed as some would like us to believe.

 

[Frazzled]

Then the new people in charge kill off Janeway, somnething which have once again annoyed and insulted the most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had. Imagine the reaction if they, on top of that would dig up that dreaded C/7 as more salt in the wounds.

As I said, that would be the definite insult!

Yup. I don't have a problem with C/7 if Janeway is staying dead, and I don't think Janeway would either, but I do however have a problem with her staying dead, so I want Chakotay to be free for when she is resurrected......

Events seem to show that TPTB don't care about how the 'most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had' feel though

 

[Thestral]

Then the new people in charge kill off Janeway, somnething which have once again annoyed and insulted the most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had. Imagine the reaction if they, on top of that would dig up that dreaded C/7 as more salt in the wounds.

As I said, that would be the definite insult!

Yup. I don't have a problem with C/7 if Janeway is staying dead, and I don't think Janeway would either, but I do however have a problem with her staying dead, so I want Chakotay to be free for when she is resurrected......

Events seem to show that TPTB don't care about how the 'most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had' feel though

TPTB don't care about how any specific group of fans feel, "most loyal and ardent" or otherwise. That way lies madness. They can't please everybody, and pleasing one group over another is unfair. So they look to tell good stories and don't become beholden to fan expectations. Which is as it should be.

ETA: I agree with teya. As seems to be typical in here.

 

[Galekarens]

If there is C/7 in the next book, I will buy it (used) just to tear it up, or something. Altho I do want Chakotay to be happy, I never saw him & 7 as compatible, and if killing off Janeway was cruel to her (many) fans, who do buy books, btw, then C/7 would only make it worse, just MHO, but it's as good as any one else's. Thanks, GS.

 

[teya]

Then the new people in charge kill off Janeway, somnething which have once again annoyed and insulted the most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had. Imagine the reaction if they, on top of that would dig up that dreaded C/7 as more salt in the wounds.

As I said, that would be the definite insult!

Yup. I don't have a problem with C/7 if Janeway is staying dead, and I don't think Janeway would either, but I do however have a problem with her staying dead, so I want Chakotay to be free for when she is resurrected......

Events seem to show that TPTB don't care about how the 'most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had' feel though

TPTB don't care about how any specific group of fans feel, "most loyal and ardent" or otherwise. That way lies madness. They can't please everybody, and pleasing one group over another is unfair. So they look to tell good stories and don't become beholden to fan expectations. Which is as it should be.

Exactly.

Although, not being a truly "loyal and ardent fan," what the fuck do I know?

 

[exodus]

If there is C/7 in the next book, I will buy it (used) just to tear it up, or something.

..and exactly what would be the point of that?
I mean no disrespect all but who would care what you did with any product after you paid for it, used or not?

 

[Lynx]

Then the new people in charge kill off Janeway, somnething which have once again annoyed and insulted the most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had. Imagine the reaction if they, on top of that would dig up that dreaded C/7 as more salt in the wounds.

As I said, that would be the definite insult!

Yup. I don't have a problem with C/7 if Janeway is staying dead, and I don't think Janeway would either, but I do however have a problem with her staying dead, so I want Chakotay to be free for when she is resurrected......

Events seem to show that TPTB don't care about how the 'most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had' feel though

TPTB don't care about how any specific group of fans feel, "most loyal and ardent" or otherwise. That way lies madness. They can't please everybody, and pleasing one group over another is unfair. So they look to tell good stories and don't become beholden to fan expectations. Which is as it should be.

ETA: I agree with teya. As seems to be typical in here.

If they continue to create scenarios which surely will make certain fans, in this case a large and loyal group of fans sad and upset, then they shouldn't be too surprised if those fans finally show them the finger and refuse to buy their items.

If you want to keep the fans, don't insult them.

And I don't think that character destruction is a good ground for telling good stories either

 

[exodus]

Yup. I don't have a problem with C/7 if Janeway is staying dead, and I don't think Janeway would either, but I do however have a problem with her staying dead, so I want Chakotay to be free for when she is resurrected......

Events seem to show that TPTB don't care about how the 'most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had' feel though

TPTB don't care about how any specific group of fans feel, "most loyal and ardent" or otherwise. That way lies madness. They can't please everybody, and pleasing one group over another is unfair. So they look to tell good stories and don't become beholden to fan expectations. Which is as it should be.

ETA: I agree with teya. As seems to be typical in here.

If they continue to create scenarios which surely will make certain fans, in this case a large and loyal group of fans sad and upset, then they shouldn't be too surprised if those fans finally show them the finger and refuse to buy their items.

If you want to keep the fans, don't insult them.

And I don't think that character destruction is a good ground for telling good stories either

Then that is their choice as consumers. Nobody is ever forced into buying something they don't like, just like no artist will ever be dictated to by the public what he/she can or can't write, paint or sing about.

One mans trash is another mans treasure.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Interesting that you did bring up the artist thing here because I do know an example what happen if you insult your loyal fans.

Once upon the time there was a certain rock band (or pop band would be more correct) who did have a string of hit singles, all of them in a rather light-weighted commecial style.

However, the band members finally got tired of playing those simple ditties and decided to go for the more heavy stuff. They also announced the change of style by openly criticizing and condemning the music they had done before and also came up with some not so nice comments about their previous fans who had bought and liked that stuff.

The result was a total disaster. They were abandoned by their previous fans, never accepted by those who liked heavy rock and finally dumped by the record company. Later efforts to go back to the previous style didn't bring back that many fans.

I also know an example where it was the reversed situation, a heavy band who did "sell out" by making more lightweighted music in order to attract the younger teenagers. The same result!

As I wrote before, if you want to keep the fans, don't insult them.

 

[teya]

As I wrote before, if you want to keep the fans, don't insult them.

I'll leave aside the issue of artists growing and changing and how ridiculous I think it is for anyone to expect an entertainer to remain stagnant for life.

What I want to know is who determines which group of fans are the fans that should be catered to? What makes any one group of fans better than another? More worthy of TPTB's attention?

Is there a special test someone must take to be considered a Real Voyager Fan? A Real Star Trek fan?

What are some of the qualifications?

I genuinely curious about this.

 

[kimc]

I hate to break it to all of you but my dogs are the most ardent and loyal fans of Voyager after "Endgame". They just adore Porthos. Yeah, I know he was on Enterprise and I keep trying to explain that to them but they're dogs. What can you do?

Seriously folks. It's the weekend - who'd like a beer?

kimc, person belonging to Voyager's most ardent and loyal fans

 

[exodus]

^^
Interesting that you did bring up the artist thing here because I do know an example what happen if you insult your loyal fans.

Once upon the time there was a certain rock band (or pop band would be more correct) who did have a string of hit singles, all of them in a rather light-weighted commecial style.

However, the band members finally got tired of playing those simple ditties and decided to go for the more heavy stuff. They also announced the change of style by openly criticizing and condemning the music they had done before and also came up with some not so nice comments about their previous fans who had bought and liked that stuff.

The result was a total disaster. They were abandoned by their previous fans, never accepted by those who liked heavy rock and finally dumped by the record company. Later efforts to go back to the previous style didn't bring back that many fans.

I also know an example where it was the reversed situation, a heavy band who did "sell out" by making more lightweighted music in order to attract the younger teenagers. The same result!

As I wrote before, if you want to keep the fans, don't insult them.

Ok, but what is so hard about not continuing to read books with stories you don't like? The fans of this band spoke up by not spending money on their music. Sounds to me like they got the right idea.

 

[Lynx]

I hate to break it to all of you but my dogs are the most ardent and loyal fans of Voyager after "Endgame". They just adore Porthos. Yeah, I know he was on Enterprise and I keep trying to explain that to them but they're dogs. What can you do?

Seriously folks. It's the weekend - who'd like a beer?

lynx: I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to single anyone out but if in the future you could TRY to avoid the use of phrases like "the most loyal" or whatever that may help the situation here. Actually, that goes for everyone.

teya: I'm pretty sure no one meant to single you out for anything but if in the future you could TRY not to assume the worst intentions that would be great. Actually, that goes for everyone.

kimc, person belonging to Voyager's most ardent and loyal fans

OK, I apologize for it. It was a bit exaggerated.

But if we look at the Voyager fans, I get the impression that the Janeway fans are a very large group.

They are also very dedicated to the series and to their favorite character.

Most of them seem to be J/C-ers as well.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Interesting that you did bring up the artist thing here because I do know an example what happen if you insult your loyal fans.

Once upon the time there was a certain rock band (or pop band would be more correct) who did have a string of hit singles, all of them in a rather light-weighted commecial style.

However, the band members finally got tired of playing those simple ditties and decided to go for the more heavy stuff. They also announced the change of style by openly criticizing and condemning the music they had done before and also came up with some not so nice comments about their previous fans who had bought and liked that stuff.

The result was a total disaster. They were abandoned by their previous fans, never accepted by those who liked heavy rock and finally dumped by the record company. Later efforts to go back to the previous style didn't bring back that many fans.

I also know an example where it was the reversed situation, a heavy band who did "sell out" by making more lightweighted music in order to attract the younger teenagers. The same result!

As I wrote before, if you want to keep the fans, don't insult them.

Ok, but what is so hard about not continuing to read books with stories you don't like? The fans of this band spoke up by not spending money on their music. Sounds to me like they got the right idea.

The problem in this case is that the only Voyager books to buy are the ones which has taken a direction which many fans don't like.

So I guess that there are many of us who will have to spend the rest of our lives without new Voyager books to read.

 

[teya]

I hate to break it to all of you but my dogs are the most ardent and loyal fans of Voyager after "Endgame". They just adore Porthos. Yeah, I know he was on Enterprise and I keep trying to explain that to them but they're dogs. What can you do?

Seriously folks. It's the weekend - who'd like a beer?

lynx: I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to single anyone out but if in the future you could TRY to avoid the use of phrases like "the most loyal" or whatever that may help the situation here. Actually, that goes for everyone.

teya: I'm pretty sure no one meant to single you out for anything but if in the future you could TRY not to assume the worst intentions that would be great. Actually, that goes for everyone.

kimc, person belonging to Voyager's most ardent and loyal fans

Never said he was singling me out. He excluded every Voyager fan with the exception of J/Cers. I'm just one of the excluded group.

I'm just really sick and tired of some Trek fans thinking they're somehow superior to others. And that doesn't just refer to the person who posted this time.