One Thing Trek Lit Needs to Address...

[TGTheodore]

WHOA! HEY! SPOILERS! Some of us have successfully avoided any story chatter about the new film.

Thanks!

Your fellow scribe who waits until Christmas to open his presents,

--Ted

 

[LutherSloan]

WHOA! HEY! SPOILERS! Some of us have successfully avoided any story chatter about the new film.

I'm pretty confident that you haven't been spoiled. I have yet to hear anything about the new Trek film having much beyond a passing reference to 'Enterprise'.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^As I said, it's just a rumor....

 

[JD]

That may be the case, but you did still reveal some spoilerish material. Alot of people don't even want to know who or what is involved in the movie yet.

 

[Rush Limborg]

That may be the case, but you did still reveal some spoilerish material. Alot of people don't even want to know who or what is involved in the movie yet.

Indeed....

 

[DS9Continuing]

Well, in a way, we already have a human Prophetist - Benjamin Sisko.

Sisko isn't a follower of the Bajoran religion (the miscarriage of characterization and storytelling that was "The Reckoning" notwithstanding).

Well, no, he doesn't believe that the Prophets are divine, which I suppose is the defining characteristic of the religion. But he has gradually come to accept almost every other aspect - the range of powers the Prophets have, the scope of their influence, their integral importance in Bajoran existence. Exemplified in the way he refuses to refer to them as anything other than Wormhole Aliens at the beginning, but accepts them as the Prophets by the end.

To take this further off topic, would you mind explaining what you feel is so wrong about "The Reckoning"? Just wondering.

 

[Marco Palmieri]

Well, no, he doesn't believe that the Prophets are divine, which I suppose is the defining characteristic of the religion. But he has gradually come to accept almost every other aspect - the range of powers the Prophets have, the scope of their influence, their integral importance in Bajoran existence.

But those are things any Starfleet officer would acknowledge, based on the available empirical evidence.

Exemplified in the way he refuses to refer to them as anything other than Wormhole Aliens at the beginning, but accepts them as the Prophets by the end.

I don't see it that way. I see that as simply accepting the prevailing nomenclature for simplicity's sake, and in consideration of the Bajorans he was surrounded by and constantly interacting with. And while Sisko's understanding of the Prophets evolved over time, I don't think he ever stopped believing that they were, when you got right down to it, simply a different order of sentient life.

To take this further off topic, would you mind explaining what you feel is so wrong about "The Reckoning"? Just wondering.

Mostly, it's just juvenile resentment and jealousy on my part. "The Reckoning" was being developed by the producers around the time that Robert Simpson and I got our chance to pitch to the TV series. The most promising of those pitches bore too close a thematic resemblance to the episode they were already developing, and it was cited as the only reason the show couldn't buy our story. Mind, you, that sort of thing happens all the time, so when I descry the episode, no one should take it too seriously.

I do honestly think that the episode mishandles Sisko, though. He seems extremely out of character to me, and the climax on the Promenade makes me wince every time. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Trent Roman]

I do honestly think that the episode mishandles Sisko, though. He seems extremely out of character to me, and the climax on the Promenade makes me wince every time. Your mileage may vary.

Not in this case. There are a number of DS9 episodes I don't care for, particularly in the earlier seasons when it was still finding its pace, but few I actively dislike as much as "Reckoning".

"In tonight's episode, Sisko stands by and does nothing while a malevolent alien entity hijacks the body of a crew member--who also happens to be his son--even though he has a solution at hand. Starring Avery Brooks as Abraham and Cirroc Lofton as Isaac."

Ugh.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Sean Aaron]

Well, I liked that episode...

 

[Ferd Burfel]

I don't think referring to them as Wormhole Aliens or the Prophets IS any different. The difference between most religions (in Trek and otherwise) is that the Bajoran Prophets are proven real. Bajoran dogma might not being purely true and literal, but what they worship scientifically exists. Sisko referring to them as the Prophets later on IS an admission they exist (we know they do), but not an admission he believes all the spiritual text and belief the Bajorans have about them.

 

[Sean Aaron]

The difference between most religions (in Trek and otherwise) is that the Bajoran Prophets are proven real.

Yeah, I mean, were I in that situation, I could see joining the Bajoran religion: their gods are real and they can see the future, past and present simultaneously and appear to have a lot of power (well, in their "home" anyway); they don't seem to ask a lot of the Bajoran people, either.

 

[Ferd Burfel]

Like I said though, you have to be careful of that. Just because they scientifically exist doesn't mean all the religious stuff is true. This is what can make is so fascinating and excellent for storytelling.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well, I liked that episode...

As did I.

 

[Sean Aaron]

Well, I liked that episode...

As did I.

I cannot recall when this episode happened, but wasn't it after Sisko had his brain thing that allowed him to see the future? By that time he was clearly more comfortable with his role as the Emmisary; if that's true, why wouldn't he share in the Bajoran faith? After all he was a central figure in their religion and carried out ceremonial roles!

 

[Marco Palmieri]

I cannot recall when this episode happened, but wasn't it after Sisko had his brain thing that allowed him to see the future?

Yes. "Rapture" was early in Season Five. "The Reckoning" was late in Season Six.

By that time he was clearly more comfortable with his role as the Emmisary; if that's true, why wouldn't he share in the Bajoran faith?

Because it's not in character. He's part of a culture with a long and well documented history of encounters with powerful, noncorporeal, and very alien forms of life, a fair number of them having been treated as divine at one time or another, before they were better understood. That's the perspective in which he's grounded, and he met the Prophets in that context.

Later experiences allowed him to see that he was more intimately connected to them than he had previously imagined, and that they had an interest in the way that events relating to Bajor unfolded. No question that those revelations had profound effect on him, but I can't get behind the idea that he would or could develop a religious perspective toward them. And aside from a couple of anomalies like "The Reckoning," the evidence points the other way.

After all he was a central figure in their religion and carried out ceremonial roles!

He officiated a few rituals according to Bajoran custom, sometimes to be diplomatic ("Accession") but always reluctantly. Officiating the marriage of Leeta and Rom ("Call to Arms") as the Emissary was the act of a friend, but it was a legal authority he already possessed as a Starfleet captain.

And let's not forget that when it was his time to get married late in Season Seven ("Penumbra," "'Til Death Do Us Part"), the options Sisko and Kasidy had discussed were Admiral Ross or a minister. It wasn't until they came under local pressure that they even considered a Bajoran service, which they both eventually rejected in favor of Sisko's original preference: a secular wedding performed by Admiral Ross.

 

[Christopher]

Religion is a set of cultural practices as well as a matter of personal belief. Sisko eventually grew comfortable with the fact that he had a role in the Bajoran's spiritual culture, as part of the process in which he came to regard Bajor as his home. And he came to realize and accept that he had a central role to play in the relationship between the wormhole aliens and the Bajoran people. But that doesn't mean he shares the Bajorans' religious belief about the true nature of the Prophets.

After all, that would mean believing that he himself was a divine creation, or possibly part-divine himself. (Or perhaps "angelic" is the word. "Angel" is from the Greek for "messenger," which is more or less a synonym for "emissary.") And that definitely seems out of character. Dukat could certainly believe he was a demigod, but Sisko wouldn't.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

On that note, though...I suspect that if Sisko's opinion of the Prophets did change in a more religious direction, he'd be very, very understated about it. In fact, I doubt he'd even tell anyone.

 

[Christopher]

The thing about religion is that it takes many forms. What's distinctive about Bajoran religion is that there's actual tangible proof that the Prophets exist, have preternatural powers, and are interested in guiding the lives of the Bajoran people. So Bajoran religion doesn't really claim anything that isn't objectively verifiable; as far as I know, the Bajorans don't attribute the creation of the universe or their own species to the Prophets. Well, I take that back; I think they do believe they go to be with the Prophets after death, and there's no evidence for that being true. Still, for the most part, there's not a great deal of difference between what they believe about the existence and nature of the Prophets and what's verifiably true.

So what makes it religion? Presumably the level of personal devotion and emotional attachment which the Bajorans have with the Prophets, the degree to which they choose to live their lives in service to the Prophets. Similar in a way to Jainism or Theravada Buddhism -- religions that have no actual deities. In those cases, the religion isn't about whether you believe in the existence of something or its role in your creation; it's about your personal relationship with the universe, how you choose to live your life, what values you embrace and for what reasons.

So I'd say the question of Sisko's alignment with Bajoran religion isn't really one of belief, since the existence and goals of the Prophets aren't really in question. It's more a matter of devotion. Sisko engages with the Prophets on a more secular level rather than embracing them on a spiritual one. To draw another analogy, it's sort of like the difference between being friends or colleagues with someone and being in love with them. In a lot of ways, religious devotion is a form of love. Indeed, in a number of religious traditions, this analogy is made directly and even graphically (see, for instance, the devotional poetry written about Krishna). Sisko has grown to respect and trust the Prophets, sometimes grudgingly, but he doesn't love them the way he would if he were really a follower of Bajoran religion.

 

[Marco Palmieri]

^Bingo.

 

[Sean Aaron]

Well, I saw Rapture (possibly my favourite DS9 episode -- despite not being a spiritual person myself, seeing Sisko become a true believer because of the gift of his vision and the consequences of it I found thrilling -- the grand moment where he derails the Bajoran-Federation membership talks was amazing) as a big turning point for the character and Reckoning as being a logical extension of it, though I will concede he didn't have a Bajoran-like devotion to them; given what we know about his nature, that makes a lot of sense.

I very much like the fact that he hasn't rejoined Starfleet in the novels -- that would seem out of character given the journey he's been on.