..but it wasn't like they weren't warned that they were in danger by living under Cardassian rule. They knew the risk and still accepted it. Material things were worth more than their own personal safety.
"...one crew, a Starfleet crew." Really...WHY?
- Thread starter Gotham Central
- Start date
Well, yes, I agree. Did you think I'd disagree? I'm a bit confused, so forgive me if my reply isn't germane to the point you're making here.
Deciding to die for your cause is one thing - particularly if you think in dying you might change things for the better. But what would their cause gain by their being stuck in the DQ?
I guess it depends on whether the individual is fighting against the Federation because that person is just a fighter (or has become one due to bitterness against the Federation)...or whether that person is fighting for a specific reason, e.g., freedom for his or her homeworld. For the second kind of person, mere freedom from the Federation, such as that available in the DQ, might not be enough.
I think it would have been interesting - I think somebody said this earlier - if some had decided to stay on a planet in the DQ rather than submitting to Federation command. But...they didn't. A shame, really.
Deciding to die for your cause is one thing - particularly if you think in dying you might change things for the better. But what would their cause gain by their being stuck in the DQ?
I guess it depends on whether the individual is fighting against the Federation because that person is just a fighter (or has become one due to bitterness against the Federation)...or whether that person is fighting for a specific reason, e.g., freedom for his or her homeworld. For the second kind of person, mere freedom from the Federation, such as that available in the DQ, might not be enough.
I think it would have been interesting - I think somebody said this earlier - if some had decided to stay on a planet in the DQ rather than submitting to Federation command. But...they didn't. A shame, really.
Actually anyone could have quit, Janeway even offered to leave anyone that wanted to stay on the planet with the 37's. Tom apparently quit (yes I know it was a ruse). Seska quit, and finally Neelix quit. Looks like you could quit if you wanted to. Of course the choice was stay in the delta quadrant, or get a ride home with the provision that you had to follow Starfleet rules. I think Seska was the only one that had a real problem with that.
Also Janeway had the majority anyway, two thirds of the crew were hers, so I don’t think your election would have changed anything.
Brit
Not if they wanted to get home.
"Submit to my command or get off this ship?"
That's not leadership, that's not honor, that's not consent. That's blackmail, pure and simple.
I completely agree that Janeway would probably have won the election. I'm not saying that Janeway should not have been in command -- I'm saying that adhering to the Starfleet way as if it is the only valid way is wrong. There should have been an election.
I kinda agree that since there was a precedent, from the start, of Janeway allowing crewmembers to maintain civilian status (Neelix and Kes, then later, Seven and her rescued drones) there ought to have been no problem allowing the Maquis to maintain their civilian status if they wanted to (and, to be fair, most of them seemed to be relegated to the lowly rank of crewman) as long as they pulled their weight on the ship, as Neelix and Kes and Seven were seen to do.
My daughter has one more point, as a part of Starfleet, the Maquis had more protection, especially after they got home. A official status and positive conduct while on board Voyager would go a long way to mend any kind of ramifications against the Maquis crew. Kes, Neelex and even Seven didn't have the possible legal repercussions that the Maquis could have had. Janeway had no way of knowing that these issues wouldn't exist due to the Dominion War. As official Starfleet members of her crew, she could offer them a certain amount of protection.
Brit
Brit
Not only have you not given any indication that you get it (the first step in deconstructing an opponent's argument by the way) but you have given no real-life precedent for the captain of a vessel, any vessel holding elections to determine whether or not he/she would remain captain. This isn't about being right or wrong but rather expressing an opinion. You've given me no reason to agree with you so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I think when Chakotay sacrificed his ship to save them it gave Janeway a reason to believe he was a man who could be reasoned with. She could have taken them all prisoner or marooned them on a planet but instead she worked with Chakotay to meld the two crews. Yes, there was tension in the beginning and it's a shame that tension was pretty much abandoned after such a short time but it's implied that J&C were working together from the start.
I must admit that I'm one of those who sometimes have had my doubts about forcing a bunch of Maquis to become Starfleet.
I guess that many of the Maquis were people who had very little or no military training at all. Making them Starfleet and expecting them to behave like Starfleet could have been a total disaster.
We also have the opyion that the Maquis on the ship could have had the same conditions as Neelix and Kes or maybe like the Bajorans on DS9, some sort of a special unit on the ship who ahd had to follow the rules and regulations on the ship but not in such rigid and typical Starfleet manners.
However, I can also see the reasons why Janeway did what she did in that matter.
She realized that Chakotay was a reliable and trustworthy person (who also had a lot of Starfleet experience) and she also realized that his people trusted him and would follow his example. I guess that it was aslo a way to integrate both crews and make them work together which was necessary to get home.
As for Chakotay and most of the Maquis, I guess that they realized that the only way to get home was to stay on Voyager and adapt to the situation. There was no reason for them to start arguing and disobeying orders because they were all in the same boat (literalily) and had to cooperate to get home.
I don't think there should have been more tension between Starfleet and Maquis in the series. What I would have liked to see more of were how people like Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell adapted to the situation after "Learning Curve". They were good characters and it would have been nice to see more of them and how they adjusted to the situation.
I guess that many of the Maquis were people who had very little or no military training at all. Making them Starfleet and expecting them to behave like Starfleet could have been a total disaster.
We also have the opyion that the Maquis on the ship could have had the same conditions as Neelix and Kes or maybe like the Bajorans on DS9, some sort of a special unit on the ship who ahd had to follow the rules and regulations on the ship but not in such rigid and typical Starfleet manners.
However, I can also see the reasons why Janeway did what she did in that matter.
She realized that Chakotay was a reliable and trustworthy person (who also had a lot of Starfleet experience) and she also realized that his people trusted him and would follow his example. I guess that it was aslo a way to integrate both crews and make them work together which was necessary to get home.
As for Chakotay and most of the Maquis, I guess that they realized that the only way to get home was to stay on Voyager and adapt to the situation. There was no reason for them to start arguing and disobeying orders because they were all in the same boat (literalily) and had to cooperate to get home.
I don't think there should have been more tension between Starfleet and Maquis in the series. What I would have liked to see more of were how people like Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell adapted to the situation after "Learning Curve". They were good characters and it would have been nice to see more of them and how they adjusted to the situation.
Actually there is nothing to indicate who's idea it was to run a starfleet ship in the first place, for all we know it was Chakotay's. He would have a great deal of interest in protecting his crew.
Brit
^ They should have showed us some of this, they really, really, really should. It's all part of that "Well, that's enough of that. No more exposition. Let's get the crew into some adventures, shall we?" attitude that made Voyager less interesting than it deserved to be. We should not have to guess about something as crucial as "How did Janeway take some Maquis personnel and some Starfleet personnel and mold them into a single crew?"
Exactly.
Star Trek: Voyager was a series that was just full of potential, most of it squandered.
Squandered due to desperation.
If Paramount hadn't pushed it to be a flagship show in network Tv, I think it would have been more dynamic. Trek belongs on cable or back in syndication, were it can take more risks without having to worry about ratings.
However, if Voyager had been a solid show from the start, we wouldn't have gotten Seven either.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess.
I would like to dispute the argument that Voyager was the only way that the Maquis could have returned home. There were plenty of civilizations in the DQ that would have loved to have access to Maquis technical knowledge. These people were scavengers who knew how to get by on few resources. As Seska herself argued, the Maquis knew how to make a deal. Not only could they have returned home without Voyager, it probably would have taken them less than 23 years.
I think that Learning Curve could have made for an interesting turning point in the series. I think it would have been interesting if Dalby and co snapped, and decided that they had had enough of Janeway's Starfleet BS.
Given that Learning Curve was the season finale, suppose Janeway's attempt to force the Maquis to be more Starfleet backfired. Instead it had the opposite effect of pushing them away. The end result being that the Maquis members decide to go off and find their own way home. How might Janeway have responded to the notion that her own actions had the result of splitting the crew appart? Would Chakotay, despite his agreement with Janeway, feel obligated to abide by the decision of his people and help lead them home without Voyager?
I think that Learning Curve could have made for an interesting turning point in the series. I think it would have been interesting if Dalby and co snapped, and decided that they had had enough of Janeway's Starfleet BS.
Given that Learning Curve was the season finale, suppose Janeway's attempt to force the Maquis to be more Starfleet backfired. Instead it had the opposite effect of pushing them away. The end result being that the Maquis members decide to go off and find their own way home. How might Janeway have responded to the notion that her own actions had the result of splitting the crew appart? Would Chakotay, despite his agreement with Janeway, feel obligated to abide by the decision of his people and help lead them home without Voyager?
If it hadn't been a Maquis crew, let's say, if it had been a Romulan crew Janeway had to integrate into the ship, would she have been able to force them to become part of a Starfleet crew? I think the Romulans would have insisted on wearing their uniforms instead, and cooperate with Janeway, but would have also insisted on handling some matters like Romulans.
It would have been more interesting if the Maquis kept their clothing as in Barclay's simulation, but wore the provisional ranks, just as Neelix, Kes, and Seven didn't wear uniforms. I have to say, though, that the clothes the Maquis wore were pretty dreadful, esp. the uninspiring browns they tended to wear. I would have preferred they wear some kind of black quasi-uniform. Chakotay and B'Elanna would've looked good in all black. Or we could've seen a whole palette of colors in their clothing, and in addition to the provisional rank pins, there be some color piping standing for the different departments, like how T'Pol had science blue piping on her Vulcan "catsuit."
Red Ranger
It would have been more interesting if the Maquis kept their clothing as in Barclay's simulation, but wore the provisional ranks, just as Neelix, Kes, and Seven didn't wear uniforms. I have to say, though, that the clothes the Maquis wore were pretty dreadful, esp. the uninspiring browns they tended to wear. I would have preferred they wear some kind of black quasi-uniform. Chakotay and B'Elanna would've looked good in all black. Or we could've seen a whole palette of colors in their clothing, and in addition to the provisional rank pins, there be some color piping standing for the different departments, like how T'Pol had science blue piping on her Vulcan "catsuit."
Red Ranger
Yes, but would Chakotay have done that? I don't think so. He was a man of dignity and honor. In the choice between heading of with his Maquis ship to some uncertain future where hey had to beg, steal or borrow to find the way home or joining the Voyager crew whit their more powerful and faster ship, I do think he saw the advantage of joining the Voyager crew. Most of the other Maquis crewmembers did respect Chakotay and therefore supposrted him in that action.
Not to mention that the Maquis ship itself was destroyed durin the initial events so they didn't have much choice, did they.
As for Dalby, Henley, Chell and Gerron revolting about the Starfleet concept, now why would they have done that? They tried in the beginning and didn't get any support from Chakotay or any other Maquis member. So what should they have done then? It would only have resulted in the four of them ending up in the brig or scrubbing the floor in Cargo Bay 1 or something like that.
By the way, all of them plays significant roles in some of the Voyager books. On the other hand, my theory is that they ended up in the Shuttle And Torpedo Building Team. If they did that as some sort of reward for good work and a way to give them some real responsibility or if they were put on that job just to be out of the way is an open question.
See, that could have been quite interesting. Split the crew in two, follow their separate adventures for a time then reunite them. Something like the first mutiny in nuBSG. Maybe they could even tie it to the Kazon/Seska/Paris arc. Seska trying to lure the Maquis into joining her, Paris really feeling uncomfortable on Voyager and joining the Maquis, the Maquis saving Voyager in Basics instead of the Talaxians...
What might have been interesting would be if in the earlier seasons Voyager had found evidence of Equinox's presence in the DQ without finding out that one crucial piece of information. They run into each other, it becomes clear command styles are incompatible, and Equinox ends up getting separated from VOY, after some Maquis have decided that E is more to their liking and have transferred over.
Then in the later seasons VOY encounters the E again, after the Maquis have learned exactly what it was they signed on for. Some of them want back onto VOY, some of them are content to stay on the E.
Then in the later seasons VOY encounters the E again, after the Maquis have learned exactly what it was they signed on for. Some of them want back onto VOY, some of them are content to stay on the E.
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