OMFG How could I have forgotten about the Bok'Nor .. the thing that started it all.
My bad.
Riker is still a tool.
"...one crew, a Starfleet crew." Really...WHY?
- Thread starter Gotham Central
- Start date
OMFG How could I have forgotten about the Bok'Nor .. the thing that started it all.
My bad.
Riker is still a tool.
And contrary to your assumptions, the conversation may have gone just like this -
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=30199&page=22
Post 426
Brit
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=30199&page=22
Post 426
Brit
By definition the Maquis is a manifestation of a rift in Starfleet and the Federation as a whole. There was a civil war going on. Which just vanished because Janeway said so? You ignore resentment like that and people are going to start killing each other for looking at each other funny.
I find it ridiculous that a faction of separatist farmers who murdered Starfleet Officers as wrote to create a new civilization governed under a new and alien charter divorced from the Federations bent watered ideals of kowtowing to power and sacrificing the little guy, would at all be interested in carrying on towards billets waiting patiently in a New Zealand penal colony they'd be interned within and shackled to as soon as they returned to this home space they'd violently and I repeat murderously rejected.
Imagine if Caretaker had interfered with the siege at Waco, and it was David Koresh and his followers, who had to stand together with Janet Reno (I looked it up. Not directly in charge, but it's funnier to think she was on the frontline.) the Special Agents and local law enforcement to make their way home after they'd been raped by Caretaker, lo it take them Seventy years.
Any Koresh/Reno shippers out there?
I find it ridiculous that a faction of separatist farmers who murdered Starfleet Officers as wrote to create a new civilization governed under a new and alien charter divorced from the Federations bent watered ideals of kowtowing to power and sacrificing the little guy, would at all be interested in carrying on towards billets waiting patiently in a New Zealand penal colony they'd be interned within and shackled to as soon as they returned to this home space they'd violently and I repeat murderously rejected.
Imagine if Caretaker had interfered with the siege at Waco, and it was David Koresh and his followers, who had to stand together with Janet Reno (I looked it up. Not directly in charge, but it's funnier to think she was on the frontline.) the Special Agents and local law enforcement to make their way home after they'd been raped by Caretaker, lo it take them Seventy years.
Any Koresh/Reno shippers out there?
The lower decks mutinied on Stargate Universe last week. They deicide the command staff were assholes who were fucking with them and steps had to be taken before they were all redshirted.
The Enemy of the Maquis were the Cardassians, not the Federation. They openly accepted the Feds just leaving them in the DMZ to begin with, and the Feds only got involved when the Maquis got them involved by taking the fight outside the DMZ to begin with.
Eddington was Anti-Federation, but that's because he was a delusional twat who needed an enemy for the Maquis to focus on once the Cardies were crippled by the Klingons.
The rift vanished because Chakotay himself decided it didn't make any sense to keep fighting in the DQ, mutual agreement between the two leaders.
Eddington was Anti-Federation, but that's because he was a delusional twat who needed an enemy for the Maquis to focus on once the Cardies were crippled by the Klingons.
The rift vanished because Chakotay himself decided it didn't make any sense to keep fighting in the DQ, mutual agreement between the two leaders.
When people shoot at you and chase you, and lock you up for no good reason they're your enemy. Your wife or your enemy, but that's really 6 of one, half a dozen of another.
Steps had to be taken.
By that stage, any friendly neutral Cardassians living in the Demiliterized zone would have pissed off leaving assholes and heavily armed military spies pretending to be bumpkin dirt farmers.
Inside and outside the DMZ, the Maquis only had "Military" targets left.
Eddington wasn't delusional, he was a patriot. Sisko was the one off the deep end, first with Cal Hudson, then with Eddington turning into a real Ahab.
Steps had to be taken.
By that stage, any friendly neutral Cardassians living in the Demiliterized zone would have pissed off leaving assholes and heavily armed military spies pretending to be bumpkin dirt farmers.
Inside and outside the DMZ, the Maquis only had "Military" targets left.
Eddington wasn't delusional, he was a patriot. Sisko was the one off the deep end, first with Cal Hudson, then with Eddington turning into a real Ahab.
Eddington was also breaking the law, committing major war crimes (bio-weapons), and later on he showed no remorse over the billions of innocent people who'd die if that Maquis strike on Cardassia had been real (sure, he knew it was fake but I don't doubt he'd not care if it was real).
A Patriot? From the Maquis' POV, a bunch of selfish farmers who knew the risks all along when they settled their worlds and didn't care about the thousands of Fleeters dying for them in the Border Wars.
Also, Chuckles being ex-Fleet (and not a traitor either) probably had something to do with the lack of hate between the Maquis and Feds.
A Patriot? From the Maquis' POV, a bunch of selfish farmers who knew the risks all along when they settled their worlds and didn't care about the thousands of Fleeters dying for them in the Border Wars.
Also, Chuckles being ex-Fleet (and not a traitor either) probably had something to do with the lack of hate between the Maquis and Feds.
There is such a thing as jurisdiction.
The Federation despite sending O'Brien off in chains can't have had the most slip and slide extradition treaty with the Cardassians, and when they were in the bad lands, or the DMZ or even open space inbetween empires there was no law.
Besides... The Maquis rejected Federation Citizenship and protection when they chose to live in the DMZ under Cardassian auspices,and they doubly rejected it after it turned out that the Cardassians just wanted to exterminate the lot of them for sport and the Federation still chose to honour their dispatriation.
The Maquis is free of Federation interference to be murdered, but they're hunted down by the Federation if they try to defend themselves?
There must have been some similar issues back when Texas left Mexico? And although the irish have calmed down a bit in recent years, as a people they've spent the last nine hundred years scalping and denutting English Soldiers who thought they owned that country.
I'm not saying that there should have been an outright war as they made their way "home" aboard Voyager, but the definition of home should not have been home or Earth for the Maquis and I should have expected at least a few of them to taken up the offer to settle on the 37's planet which is a bloody good offer compared to jail or a pardon and then placed straight back inbetween the Federation and the Cardassians again.
The Federation despite sending O'Brien off in chains can't have had the most slip and slide extradition treaty with the Cardassians, and when they were in the bad lands, or the DMZ or even open space inbetween empires there was no law.
Besides... The Maquis rejected Federation Citizenship and protection when they chose to live in the DMZ under Cardassian auspices,and they doubly rejected it after it turned out that the Cardassians just wanted to exterminate the lot of them for sport and the Federation still chose to honour their dispatriation.
The Maquis is free of Federation interference to be murdered, but they're hunted down by the Federation if they try to defend themselves?
There must have been some similar issues back when Texas left Mexico? And although the irish have calmed down a bit in recent years, as a people they've spent the last nine hundred years scalping and denutting English Soldiers who thought they owned that country.
I'm not saying that there should have been an outright war as they made their way "home" aboard Voyager, but the definition of home should not have been home or Earth for the Maquis and I should have expected at least a few of them to taken up the offer to settle on the 37's planet which is a bloody good offer compared to jail or a pardon and then placed straight back inbetween the Federation and the Cardassians again.
The Feds went in there, risked their own lives to stop the Cardassian attacks and exposed them to the point that they could have hammered out real peace. The Maquis rejected that in favor of continued warfare until one side was wiped out.
They get hunted by the Feds for attacking and stealing from the Feds to begin with. It's something they bring on themselves.
Yeah, I'd have liked more of the crew to just leave the ship for other planets in the DQ. But all that talk about how the ship needed all of them to work, and probably the writers were afraid it would make Janeway weak she couldn't keep them all together.
They get hunted by the Feds for attacking and stealing from the Feds to begin with. It's something they bring on themselves.
Yeah, I'd have liked more of the crew to just leave the ship for other planets in the DQ. But all that talk about how the ship needed all of them to work, and probably the writers were afraid it would make Janeway weak she couldn't keep them all together.
Really?
Have you seen Chain of Command recently?
Riker laid 500 mines between the nooks and gullies of a cardassian invasion fleet waiting idle in the Macallister nebula ready to pounce unsuspecting on Minos Korva. They didn't say how many ships, but 500 mines could mean as many as 500 ships, but then it could also mean 12 ships.
But the total investment of the federation from that feint was one shuttlecraft, a few mines and one monkey, which ain't really much in my books.
The Federation had the Cardassian Fleet completely at their mercy, they could have exterminated that fleet like smacking a doggy in the nose with a rolled up news paper for shitting in your slippers, training those spoon headed bastards into behaving like civilized gentle beings for once, forcing home the point that there are consequence to behaving like a dick, but instead of beginning a thousand years of war, Jellico went for a moral victory that could be turned into a thousand years of peace on the bargaining table, as he transformed what should have been the outright slaughter and martyrdom of his enemies into massive concessions as if it was he paying reparations for atrocities, so that no one has to lock and load for the next ten generations.
Yeah. It was a bribe.
Is it possible that if Jellico had toggled Rikers Mine field that the Cardassians would have slinked off to be forgotten about in obscurity as three time losers who should know their place when dealing with adults? Might it have been the end of them as major players in galactic affairs forever?
The Federation could have annihilated the Cardasians and kept the as yet not Maquis Colonies inside thir boarders and left their bloody and easy victory as an example to all the other space buggers out their not to fuck with the Federation or they'll get their asses handed to them, but they didn't, they employed the same tactics that won them a centuries worth of peace with the Romulans after the Star Empire's disastrous defeat during the Tomed Incident.
Surely you studied the Treaty of Versailles in school? A treaty that ended the first world war on such crippling terms for the Germans that the second world war was almost unavoidable.
Have you seen Chain of Command recently?
Riker laid 500 mines between the nooks and gullies of a cardassian invasion fleet waiting idle in the Macallister nebula ready to pounce unsuspecting on Minos Korva. They didn't say how many ships, but 500 mines could mean as many as 500 ships, but then it could also mean 12 ships.
But the total investment of the federation from that feint was one shuttlecraft, a few mines and one monkey, which ain't really much in my books.
The Federation had the Cardassian Fleet completely at their mercy, they could have exterminated that fleet like smacking a doggy in the nose with a rolled up news paper for shitting in your slippers, training those spoon headed bastards into behaving like civilized gentle beings for once, forcing home the point that there are consequence to behaving like a dick, but instead of beginning a thousand years of war, Jellico went for a moral victory that could be turned into a thousand years of peace on the bargaining table, as he transformed what should have been the outright slaughter and martyrdom of his enemies into massive concessions as if it was he paying reparations for atrocities, so that no one has to lock and load for the next ten generations.
Yeah. It was a bribe.
Is it possible that if Jellico had toggled Rikers Mine field that the Cardassians would have slinked off to be forgotten about in obscurity as three time losers who should know their place when dealing with adults? Might it have been the end of them as major players in galactic affairs forever?
The Federation could have annihilated the Cardasians and kept the as yet not Maquis Colonies inside thir boarders and left their bloody and easy victory as an example to all the other space buggers out their not to fuck with the Federation or they'll get their asses handed to them, but they didn't, they employed the same tactics that won them a centuries worth of peace with the Romulans after the Star Empire's disastrous defeat during the Tomed Incident.
Surely you studied the Treaty of Versailles in school? A treaty that ended the first world war on such crippling terms for the Germans that the second world war was almost unavoidable.
That was the invasion force for one planet and one planet alone. I doubt they'd need that many ships for it, and if there was enough room on that shuttle for 500 mines they couldn't be that strong without huge numbers.
And given how they were supposed to be in a ceasefire I doubt it'd look that good for an attack force to get caught with its' pants down in a minefield (at least they had some legal pretense for capturing Picard).
Basically this was a fair-trade, they'd give back Picard without getting him to admit that he was there on a Starfleet mission (which would make the Feds look bad) and they get their attack force not trashed (which would make them look bad). So both sides get out with their reputations okay.
I didn't study the Treaty of Versailles that closely (I like pre-20th century history more, I'm a retro guy), but I do know it wasn't JUST the Treaty terms that led to the Second War. It was a multitude of things including the winning powers not paying attention to Germany afterwards that led to it.
And given how they were supposed to be in a ceasefire I doubt it'd look that good for an attack force to get caught with its' pants down in a minefield (at least they had some legal pretense for capturing Picard).
Basically this was a fair-trade, they'd give back Picard without getting him to admit that he was there on a Starfleet mission (which would make the Feds look bad) and they get their attack force not trashed (which would make them look bad). So both sides get out with their reputations okay.
I didn't study the Treaty of Versailles that closely (I like pre-20th century history more, I'm a retro guy), but I do know it wasn't JUST the Treaty terms that led to the Second War. It was a multitude of things including the winning powers not paying attention to Germany afterwards that led to it.
The federation opens it's veins to fill the inkwells at their peace settlements is all I meant, considering what we know about the Khittomer Accords from Star Trek VI, the century of Romulan Isolation and the already detailed tailed federation/Cardassian treaty of 2367.
You have to wonder what amenities and consolation prizes hey thrust on the completely humbled Dominion to make sure they went away a little too opulent to think about ever being so nasty to such nice guys ever again?
Hells Katyhryn sat at a negotiation table with Seska and Kullah to hammer out an alliance... Now and then she can do the things the Starfleet way, befriending enemies rather than dancing on their burnt corpses.
Her dealings with kashyk do remind me of the recent Inglorious basterds movie Quentin made a little while ago with the charming "Jew Hunter" playing things close tot he vest. I still can't beleive she kissed him considering he probably spent his weekends throwing telepath children into lit ovens for fun.
You have to wonder what amenities and consolation prizes hey thrust on the completely humbled Dominion to make sure they went away a little too opulent to think about ever being so nasty to such nice guys ever again?
Hells Katyhryn sat at a negotiation table with Seska and Kullah to hammer out an alliance... Now and then she can do the things the Starfleet way, befriending enemies rather than dancing on their burnt corpses.
Her dealings with kashyk do remind me of the recent Inglorious basterds movie Quentin made a little while ago with the charming "Jew Hunter" playing things close tot he vest. I still can't beleive she kissed him considering he probably spent his weekends throwing telepath children into lit ovens for fun.
Whether or not the Maquis were right to reject the Federation is besides the point.
The point is, they rejected the Federation. They hated the Federation. They felt betrayed by the Federation.
They would never wear the Federation's uniform, and they certainly wouldn't want to build up a record of Starfleet service just to impress the Federation upon getting home.
That VOY had Maquis wearing Starfleet uniforms was fundamentally unrealistic writing, and violated the Trek ideals of IDIC. Instead of two different groups learning to live and work together in peace as equals, one group assimilated the other.
The point is, they rejected the Federation. They hated the Federation. They felt betrayed by the Federation.
They would never wear the Federation's uniform, and they certainly wouldn't want to build up a record of Starfleet service just to impress the Federation upon getting home.
That VOY had Maquis wearing Starfleet uniforms was fundamentally unrealistic writing, and violated the Trek ideals of IDIC. Instead of two different groups learning to live and work together in peace as equals, one group assimilated the other.
The Maquis were not all of the same mind, and did any of the VOY Maquis ever say anything like that in Caretaker? It's just as likely that they did NOT hate the Federation.
No, but operating under a unified chain of command would sure make it easier to run the ship and get home. Also, when they did get home what made them so sure they wouldn't have all just been arrested for being Maquis? At leas the Fleet thing gave them some protection on Janeway's behalf.
They weren't two different groups, really. The Maquis had no real ideological differences with the Feds (no, Eddington's BS doesn't count), Chak being ex-fleet means they likely already used some Fleet rules in running their Cell, and the main thing they were fighting over (the DMZ) wasn't present. They'd be idiots to keep up the fight over THAT in their situation.
No ideological differences? And possibly the same could be said of the French collaborators and the French resistance during WWII? Surely they still weren't hanging each other in 1947 over their easily dismissed former certitude?
You saw how they were with Ransom? In the beginning, that IS EXACTLY how Janeway would have felt and acted out towards Chakotay if their simple adventure in s01e01 was allowed to play through without the Caretakers rapey interference... If Kathy had any uniformity of Character that is, but then it's also exactly how Sisko reacted to Cal Hudson and Eddington, although Janeway didn't seem to give a toss about Michael Jonas betraying her to Seska.
She's a weird old sod.
You saw how they were with Ransom? In the beginning, that IS EXACTLY how Janeway would have felt and acted out towards Chakotay if their simple adventure in s01e01 was allowed to play through without the Caretakers rapey interference... If Kathy had any uniformity of Character that is, but then it's also exactly how Sisko reacted to Cal Hudson and Eddington, although Janeway didn't seem to give a toss about Michael Jonas betraying her to Seska.
She's a weird old sod.
Sure. But they all had a common cause: Keeping the colonies the Federation handed over to the Cardassians out of Cardassian hands, and keeping those colonies free from the Federation.
Of course they did. They felt fundamentally betrayed by them. The comparison to the Branch Davidians is completely accurate, as would a comparison to any other breakaway, separatist group.
No one's contesting that there would need to be a unified chain of command. But that doesn't mean that the Maquis would realistically acquiesce to the Starfleet version of a chain of command.
More realistically, both sides would make demands of the other that would result in a compromise chain of command that would involve both Starfleet and Maquis operational traits.
Nothing -- but these are people who would be willing to fight and die for the independence of their colonies. They would try to avoid being arrested, but they wouldn't do it by trying to look good in the Federation's eyes.
If the show had been written realistically, the Maquis would have probably been developing a plan to get away from Voyager and back to the DMZ -- if not to outright hijack the ship -- upon reaching the Alpha Quadrant (at least until word reached Voyager that there were no more Maquis).
Yes, Eddington's stuff does count. That's like saying, "There are no real ideological differences between Democrats and Republicans, and no, explicit statements from their leaders outlining their ideological differences don't count." Or, "There's no real ideological difference between Israel and Iran -- and no, Ahmadinejad's speeches don't count!"
There are very real ideological differences. The Maquis are separatists who wanted to keep their own colony worlds, didn't want to live under Cardassian rule, and felt betrayed enough by the Federation that they wanted to live free of the UFP, too. They're the equivalent of the "keep your government hands off my guns and off my farm" survivalist types who live today.
They are not the kinds of people who'd pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United Federation of Planets, nor to the republic for which it stands, one Federation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. These are the people who would spit at the Federation flag and raise their own. These are more like Texan separatists than Massachusetts liberals.
ETA:
You could apply that same logic to the Starfleet crew. The main things they had been serving -- Starfleet Command and the UFP -- weren't present. Why should they stay in their uniforms? Why should the ship stay in Starfleet? Really, why shouldn't they all just abandon the Starfleet command structure and run it as a civilian ship belonging to no government at all?
Well, because they're Starfleet. It's what they believe in; they're not going to give up the uniform, because they believe in the Federation and the things it stands for.
So it is with the Maquis. They believe in colonial independence. They disbelieve in the Federation. They're not just going to give that up and adopt Truth, Justice, and the Federation Way. They think the Federation way is wrong. They're not just going to give that up.
VOY should have featured both sides learning to compromise and learn that maybe their side isn't always right. Instead, it featured one side assimilating the other. Not very IDIC.
And Janeway wouldn't accept it as toilet paper if offered.
If Janeway had put them all on trial and sentenced (commuted or hand slaps? Then Chakotay may have rejected the idea since in his mind he hadn't done anything wrong.) them or found them innocent in the beginning, one assumes that you can't be tried twice for the same crime, then that would have been the end of it, instead however much later in Robert Picardo's season six episode Life Line you have an Admiral asking how she;s "dealing for the Maquis problem" and Janeways reaction was that she had forgotten that these rogues thieves and terrorists were not her family.
How can you forget something like that?
If Janeway had put them all on trial and sentenced (commuted or hand slaps? Then Chakotay may have rejected the idea since in his mind he hadn't done anything wrong.) them or found them innocent in the beginning, one assumes that you can't be tried twice for the same crime, then that would have been the end of it, instead however much later in Robert Picardo's season six episode Life Line you have an Admiral asking how she;s "dealing for the Maquis problem" and Janeways reaction was that she had forgotten that these rogues thieves and terrorists were not her family.
How can you forget something like that?
Yeah, fighting the Cardassians out to kill them. The Feds got involved when they saw what was happening, put an end to the major Cardie illegalities and then the Maquis kept up the fight out of stubbornness. The Federation itself had little to do with it since they knew almost from the day the planets were settled they were contested.
No, the nutters who felt they needed a new strawman to fight against since the Cardie problem was all but solved by the Klingons were the ones who started up that "We hate the Federation" BS.
The higher-ups in their cell were ex-fleet, and Chakotay bore no hatred to the Feds (he wasn't even a traitor like Eddington), so chances are their existing structure was already enough like Starfleet anyways.
Yes, yes. That whole "elect a new captain" stuff, that's how it was done in the Golden Age of Piracy. VOY was not a Pirate ship. Why should the Captain who earned that rank through years of work and military effort have to stand down when she's done nothing wrong except a bunch of rebels demand she do so?
And dramatically, losing all the characters that the audience liked would have been a poor choice.
No, it doesn't. His speech to Sisko was total BS from start to finish, made little sense, and STILL gave no concrete differing ideology to the Federation.
That still doesn't give real differences in ideal and politics other than "we don't like you". Never once was there any focus or depth given to what their independent nation would operate like, or what codes of conduct they would follow, NADA.
They believed in not getting killed by Cardassians, we never learnt just WHAT the Maquis Way was in the first place. The whole thing began over defending themselves from Cardassians.
If they'd bothered giving the Maquis real differences that would clash heavily with the Feds, I'd agree. But as it stands there weren't any real ones so I don't hold it against them.
Hey? Did the Amish get drafted during the Viet Nam War?
Farmers who rejected modern convenience and convention? You can't tell me the government doesn't think about pulling those peoples children into the 21st century before they all die of rickets and scurvy? Any normal people usually think about drawing steak knives and gardening tools if some one tries to take their children away forever.
Farmers who rejected modern convenience and convention? You can't tell me the government doesn't think about pulling those peoples children into the 21st century before they all die of rickets and scurvy? Any normal people usually think about drawing steak knives and gardening tools if some one tries to take their children away forever.
No, the Feds didn't put an end to Cardassian illegalities. Both the Cardassians and the Maquis continued attacking one-another's colonists all the time.
To the Maquis, those worlds were their homes, and the Federation had no right to hand over those worlds. To their minds, that's betrayal. That's why the Maquis were separatists -- their ideology was what we would probably today call "extreme individualism," like the people who want their states to secede from the U.S. today.
So, yeah, the Maquis, by definition, do have a grudge against the Federation and its Starfleet.
Dude, that's what the Maquis in general believed. It wasn't just, "We need a new bad guy to fight" -- they honestly believed that the Federation had no political legitimacy, that the UFP had no right to govern the peoples of the colonies it had tried to hand over to the Cardassians.
Now, were they right? I don't know that I think they were right or justified. But that is what they believed.
Why should she continue to run it as a Starfleet ship when Starfleet wasn't there anymore? It's as rational a question as, "Why should they continue to be Maquis when the DMZ isn't there?"
Remember, both sides need the other to get home, and in a realistic scenario, both sides are therefore going to make demands of the other to compromise. Both sides have a cultural identity that they believe in, and neither side, if realistically-written, would give that identity up. And that's okay -- that's IDIC.
What is not IDIC is if one side has to abandon its cultural identity and adopt the others. It wouldn't have been IDIC if the Starfleet officers had all abandoned their uniforms and adopted the Maquis way, and it wasn't IDIC when the Maquis adopted the Starfleet way. That was cultural hegemony, pure and simple.
Would that have been "losing" those characters? What if the arc following Voyager's arrival had featured the Voyager Starfleet crew fighting for their Maquis compatriots, first legally and then launching an insurrection against an unjust Federation power structure? It might well have made for some wonderful television.
In your opinion. But the fact that you don't agree with their anti-Federation ideology does not mean that other Maquis wouldn't share it.
And that's not uncommon in separatist rhetoric. It doesn't change the fact that separatism exists as a real ideology.
Colonial independence.
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