On season 4 of Buffy...should I be watching Angel?

[JirinPanthosa]

They set up Riley for the audience to love him when he punched out Parker then they made him kind of an ass. Indecisive writers.

Now, Xander/Larry. That might have been cool.

It's pretty clear Buffy/Riley is over, but that doesn't mean he can't come back. Just he can either come back and be important, or come back just to complain about her next romance like Oz.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

Riley being a better man simply because he wasn't a jerk does not make him a beloved character. It wore off quickly and underneath he was nothing but a cure for insomnia.

Xander/Larry... Yes to that!

 

[DonIago]

I'd love to read a what-if where it is Xander who figures out he's gay. Though would that mean we'd have gotten VampXander rather than VampWillow in "Dopplegangland"? That would be weird since the whole trigger was Anya wanting someone with witchy powers to help her out.

Not sure about Xander-Larry though, especially given the latter died. Though I guess that could be revised too.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

Until the Xander/Larry ship sets sail, we have this lovely little video to keep us occupied.

[yt]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V0xm0JvqqJ0[/yt]

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I'd love to read a what-if where it is Xander who figures out he's gay. Though would that mean we'd have gotten VampXander rather than VampWillow in "Dopplegangland"? That would be weird since the whole trigger was Anya wanting someone with witchy powers to help her out.

Not sure about Xander-Larry though, especially given the latter died. Though I guess that could be revised too.

If that had happened, I'm sure we just would've gotten a slightly different VampWillow. Assuming that story even happened at all, since Xander going through a big personal change/discovery like that would've naturally altered the course of the show. Not to mention that episode was the direct result of Xander's relationship with Cordelia...

 

[Christopher]

Overdue observation: Why is Anya in the main credits and not Tara? They are both equal in duration of existence, frequency of appearance, and centrality to the main cast. Sure, Anya was the replacement for Oz's comic relief role. But it's weird Tara still is not considered a main character.

Credits are about contracts and salaries rather than screen time or story importance. Emma Caulfield just had a better contract than Amber Benson. Caulfield was added to the main titles first, right? So maybe they didn't have the budget for another regular as Tara's importance to the story grew.

Keep watching the main credits as you go forward, though. There's an irony to your question that you'll recognize once you reach a certain point.

 

[DonIago]

I'd love to read a what-if where it is Xander who figures out he's gay. Though would that mean we'd have gotten VampXander rather than VampWillow in "Dopplegangland"? That would be weird since the whole trigger was Anya wanting someone with witchy powers to help her out.

Not sure about Xander-Larry though, especially given the latter died. Though I guess that could be revised too.

If that had happened, I'm sure we just would've gotten a slightly different VampWillow. Assuming that story even happened at all, since Xander going through a big personal change/discovery like that would've naturally altered the course of the show. Not to mention that episode was the direct result of Xander's relationship with Cordelia...

Well, it's not like Xander-Cordy couldn't have happened prior to Xander realizing he wasn't really into girls, heh.

It actually bothered me a bit that Willow went from apparently straight to gay without even stopping at bisexual along the way.

 

[Christopher]

It actually bothered me a bit that Willow went from apparently straight to gay without even stopping at bisexual along the way.

I don't think it works that way. There's no single uniform way that it does work. But the way I interpreted it is that Willow was lesbian all along but didn't realize it, because she'd been raised with heteronormative assumptions and just took it for granted that she was hetero and should like boys. Once she fell for Tara, though, she realized that it was more natural for her, that her interest in boys had been more about conforming to expectations than about her own inner feelings. So it's not like there was some orientation dial that she was gradually turning from one setting to the other.

Anyway, bisexuality is a spectrum, not a single "halfway between" setting. Lots of people can be more or less attracted to both sexes but choose to favor one sex exclusively. Looking at Willow's history, Xander was a best friend and unrequited crush, and Oz was a cool guy who was fun to be with for a while but ultimately didn't work out, whereas Tara was someone she really fell deeply in love with and was happy with. So even if she were theoretically bi, I could definitely see why she'd feel more fulfilled by women and select them as an exclusive preference.

 

[DonIago]

It's been awhile since I've seen the show, but I think I read more into Willow's feelings for Oz than you seem to, which would obviously factor into one's interpretation of Willow's sexuality.

Granted, speaking as a gay man, I almost never think of myself as anything else (well, sometimes I think there's about a 5% chance I might be bi), but then, I never had any romantic interactions with a woman either. Which is to say, there's a near-total lack of evidence that I'm anything other than gay.

All of which is to say, whether one thinks that Willow is gay or bi is likely to depend on how one interprets her relationship with Oz. To me, her words seemed at odds with what we'd seen in prior episodes, but YMMV.

Either way, it might have been nice if the show had at least raised the question at some point. But it's really just a minor bother to me.

 

[Ethros]

Can I just clear up/ask what's going on in this thread? So JirinPanthosa is watching Buffy for the first time yes? So are you actually watching Angel concurrently with it or not? Just seems you've started Buffy Season 6 so wondered if you'd started Angel Season 3?
Especially as the whole "one ep of Buffy, then Angel, then Buffy, then Angel..." that works for B4/A1 & B5/A2 doesn't really apply for B6/A3 & B7/A4 as the shows didn't air on the same network in double bills anymore.

It's better that Willow and Tara look after Dawn, with using the Buffybot for appearances sake. Otherwise she would probably be put into foster care. I highly doubt Hank Summers would take on the responsibility of raising her. Too busy screwing his secretary.

I never really liked how retconned Hank Summers was how weird the situation was. He first appeared in Season 1's Nightmares, and granted he was an ass but that was all Buffy's nightmare; in reality he just appears as the end as seems very nice, overjoyed to see his daughter, and Buffy is happy to spend time with him. He's then briefly in the Season 2 opener, Buffy's spent all Summer with him and he's been spoiling her with all the clothes and shoes she wants. Even he and Joyce have a good, amicable relationship now they're apart.
Even up to Season 4 (Angel Season 1) she's still going to LA to see him.

Then all of a sudden he's a douche and even two years after Joyce dies he doesn't appear to have made any attempt to make contact with his (now two) daughters. I get that the writers kinda had to just ignore him in order the Season 5- onwards stories to work, but damn... I guess his secretary must have been seriously hot!



I've stopped reading the comics, but I've seen he appears in Season 10 a little anyway.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

I was always under the impression that Willow's feelings for Oz were real. I don't think she was confirming to society's expectations at all. It was Tara who made her realize her true sexuality. I doubt every gay person out there knows they were gay from an early age.

In regards to Willow not being bisexual. There was (and still is) a lot of biphobia in the world. It is not seen as a valid sexuality so I think that is why Joss had Willow realize she was gay instead of bi, otherwise her relationship with Tara might not have been taken seriously. That's the unfortunate reality.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It's been awhile since I've seen the show, but I think I read more into Willow's feelings for Oz than you seem to, which would obviously factor into one's interpretation of Willow's sexuality.

Granted, speaking as a gay man, I almost never think of myself as anything else (well, sometimes I think there's about a 5% chance I might be bi), but then, I never had any romantic interactions with a woman either. Which is to say, there's a near-total lack of evidence that I'm anything other than gay.

All of which is to say, whether one thinks that Willow is gay or bi is likely to depend on how one interprets her relationship with Oz. To me, her words seemed at odds with what we'd seen in prior episodes, but YMMV.

Either way, it might have been nice if the show had at least raised the question at some point. But it's really just a minor bother to me.

The way I see it, Willow was in love with Oz and she was in love with Tara and she thought that Xander was sweet and... some others were hot. At the end of the day she pretty much was bisexual, but for whatever reason, she chose to use the word gay. Maybe she felt more attracted to women in general. Maybe she felt like she had to 'pick a team' or something weird like that. Whatever the reason, she used the word she wanted to and that's her choice. If the right guy came along at the right time, I don't think she'd have any problem starting a relationship with him, but there's absolutely no reason the show ever needed to show that, or to show her sitting on her bed pontificating on what the right term was to describe her sexuality.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

^ If Willow was bisexual, she most likely would have identified as such. She didn't. In an interview with Joss and Jane Espenson, they both made it clear that Willow was gay.

By you saying that if the right guy came along, is pretty much invalidating her sexuality.

 

[Christopher]

It's been awhile since I've seen the show, but I think I read more into Willow's feelings for Oz than you seem to, which would obviously factor into one's interpretation of Willow's sexuality.

Well, sure, there's some retconning involved, since they didn't initially plan for her to be lesbian. But it seems a reasonable interpretation. There have been plenty of people who got married and started families before realizing they were gay. Willow, on the other hand, was a teenager, so it makes sense that she might be unsure of her sexuality at first.

All of which is to say, whether one thinks that Willow is gay or bi is likely to depend on how one interprets her relationship with Oz. To me, her words seemed at odds with what we'd seen in prior episodes, but YMMV.

The thing is, it's a spectrum. There aren't just two or three or four types of sexual orientation; there are millions. Labels are just fictions we invent because we're lazy and don't want to do the work of getting to know each person as an individual. Every person's experience is their own.

And sometimes it's a mistake to confuse the specific for the general. Sometimes having feelings for a certain person isn't about their gender, it's about who they are as an invididual. Like in Torchwood: Children of Earth, where Ianto said that his relationship with Jack wasn't about being gay, it was just about Jack himself. It didn't mean he was interested in all men, just that he had feelings for that specific one. You can't always predict or categorize who a person will love, or lump it into a clear, definable structure. The chemistry between two people can be unique.

 

[Forbin]

It actually bothered me a bit that Willow went from apparently straight to gay without even stopping at bisexual along the way.

I have a female friend that did the same. Could never find the right man, occasionally wondered why, then suddenly met the right woman, at the age of 35. They've been together for at least 20 years now.

 

[Forbin]

I doubt every gay person out there knows they were gay from an early age.

True. See my previous post for such an example.

Also another friend, who was the most energetic gay rights activist I knew, started out dating girls in high school, and soon figured out that he liked boys better. His partner, though, clearly knew his own heart from the start.

 

[CorporalClegg]

And yet her famous "I think I'm kinda gay." occurred while she was dating Oz.

Also, people "turning" (and I hate to use that word) gay in college is kind of a thing. Because it's the first time they're allowed to be themselves and not confine to social standards or pressure.

 

[Ethros]

^ Well she was talking about her alternate universe "me-as-a-vampire" to be fair

 

[Thestral]

Right, that was an observation rather than a statement about herself.

Throwing Oz under the bus and having Willow just go to straight to "I'm gay and nothing else" always rankled with me because Oz and Willow were such a great couple. I actually didn't like Tara until halfway through Season 5 because of that. But then there was an episode early in Season 7 where Willow joins the other women in falling in love with a boy due to a spell, so... I've gone with "bi but practically gay" ever since.

 

[RoJoHen]

Kind of makes her friends seem like dicks, ripping her out of heaven.

Buffy died closing a portal to a demon dimension. Her friends thought her soul was trapped in Hell.

In their defense, they had never encountered a "good" dimension before. They had no reason to think that one even existed.