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Ok. What is the chance of a Picard spinoff?

Which is weird if you consider that 24th century Trek had 21 seasons, 526 episodes, airing over 14 years without pause.
Just the latest incident in marketing / executive patronizing their audiences (producers are usually better about this).

In both the Kelvinverse era, and the start of the Streaming Era, there was a perception that the Berman era was very talky and not enough shoot-shoot-bang-bang. Which it could be, particularly as the technobabble solutions got ever more ridiculous and crucial to the plot solution in Voyager (though that got better in Enterprise). But it was a gross overexaggeration in the broad swathe. DS9 and TNG were much more restrained in technobabble (with exceptions) and while they were talky, the word for that is "acting" and they had plenty of explosions too.

DS9, of course, had a goddamn war.

It boils down to this... Captain Kirk = Luke Skywalker and Luke Skywalker sells merch and merch makes more money than eyeballs. That was teh calculation. Picard comparatively, doesn't sell merch (in their perception. Of course, Trek merch offerings are so meager the value of it is questionable at best, but w/e. Marketing.

Again, it's the money men patronizing viewers. Happens here. Happens everywhere. And then they get stunned when something not swashbuckling adventure junk food entertainment (which certainly has its place) is a runaway success.
 
I don't believe that Alex Kurtzman's vision of Star Trek includes a Picard spinoff. S3 was a gift for the "Last Generation" of Trek fans and I am thankful for it, but I think it was an anomaly.

After season 3 of The Orville, I was fully on board with the potential of an Orville universe, content with the future of that series in addition to 700+ episodes of pre-Discovery Star Trek and 10 movies. Unfortunately, that is looking highly unlikely that The Orville will be renewed.

But Picard S3 was special and unexpected. I hope that I eat crow on this prediction.
 
Which is weird if you consider that 24th century Trek had 21 seasons, 526 episodes, airing over 14 years without pause.
But not the overall ratings success they necessarily wanted. The numbers show a downward trend across those shows and each one was less and less successful. Same with the films. So, one way to interpret that is not the 24th century is specifically successful but that Picard on TNG was successful let's try that.

And it worked for this season. A Legacy series I'm not convinced will have the same pull unless it offers a similar carrot. Because this season wasn't much different from past seasons save for the very familiar and deliberate touchstone moments.
 
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Hopefully it will happen, We might just have to wait for Starfleet Academy to fail and Strange New Worlds to wind down.

I'd much rather have Legacy. I don't really like SNW they act too silly billy.
 
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Would love to see him on Jack as well; his introduction there was simply perfect.

Seven might be closer to Sisko in some ways - unless they give her a new way. Picard tolerated Q, Janeway was asked for help, Sisko played Q's game right back at him... WW7D?

Well Seven reaction to Q Jr was to give no shits to his antics and ignore him whenever he's try to get arise out of her. It worked well.
 
Hahaha. I think Kurtzman and others got so wrapped up in the "culturally iconic" nature of the NCC-1701, Kirk, Spock and the 23rd century era, and though it timeless, that they forgot or ignored the 24th century was insanely popular, and by this point, probably far more people have been brought to Star Trek by the TNG-Enterprise era, than the TOS era. T
Don't they have two shows currently set in the 24th Century? Shows that came out before or concurrent with SNW?
 
Hopefully it will happen, We might just have to wait for Starfleet Academy to fail and Strange New Worlds to wind down.

I'd much rather have Legacy. I don't really like SNW they act too silly billy.

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Interesting video, according to his source, a former marketing employee for Paramount, season 2 of Discovery was always about setting the table, that SNW was always part of the plan, but they played coy about SNWs to get fans to come to them, so it'd feel organic and fan driven instead of Kurtzman driven.

And then it was speculated that its very likely the same thing just happened with Star Trek: Legacy, it make it seem like its anti Kurtzman Trek even, and completely fan driven.

I'll speculate even further then the video does that what if Season 3 of Picard and Star Trek: Legacy was always the true plan of Kurtzman, but the only way to get Patrick Stewart to play ball was to bait him with season 1 & 2 of Picard which were entirely driven by his views as an actor, but only when he was fully committed, did they use Terry Matalas to bait and switch things into the real direction they wanted all along, in a way that the cast loved, and not only give the TNG crew the send off they deserved, but to set up Star Trek: Legacy they wanted all along.

Could Kurtzman's be this capable of 4d chess? I'm starting to think so, it just adds up so perfectly.

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Interesting video, according to his source, a former marketing employee for Paramount, season 2 of Discovery was always about setting the table, that SNW was always part of the plan, but they played coy about SNWs to get fans to come to them, so it'd feel organic and fan driven instead of Kurtzman driven.

And then it was speculated that its very likely the same thing just happened with Star Trek: Legacy, it make it seem like its anti Kurtzman Trek even, and completely fan driven.

I'll speculate even further then the video does that what if Season 3 of Picard and Star Trek: Legacy was always the true plan of Kurtzman, but the only way to get Patrick Stewart to play ball was to bait him with season 1 & 2 of Picard which were entirely driven by his views as an actor, but only when he was fully committed, did they use Terry Matalas to bait and switch things into the real direction they wanted all along, in a way that the cast loved, and not only give the TNG crew the send off they deserved, but to set up Star Trek: Legacy they wanted all along.

Could Kurtzman's be this capable of 4d chess? I'm starting to think so, it just adds up so perfectly.

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Kurtzman is the Mule?
 
Interesting video, according to his source, a former marketing employee for Paramount, season 2 of Discovery was always about setting the table, that SNW was always part of the plan, but they played coy about SNWs to get fans to come to them, so it'd feel organic and fan driven instead of Kurtzman driven.
From interviews SNW more or less started when Goldsman joined the DISCO team. When he was offered the job at DISCO he thought it was going to be a "direct" TOS prequel. I think he began moving the pieces so it would lead to SNW.

Matalas is now in a similar position.
 
From interviews SNW more or less started when Goldsman joined the DISCO team. When he was offered the job at DISCO he thought it was going to be a "direct" TOS sequel. I think he began moving the pieces so it would lead to SNW.

Matalas is now in a similar position.
Yup. If Paramount sees possibilities in making money they will be open to Matalas' ideas.
 
Which is weird if you consider that 24th century Trek had 21 seasons, 526 episodes, airing over 14 years without pause.
But not the overall ratings success they necessarily wanted. The numbers show a downward trend across those shows and each one was less and less successful. Same with the films.
I recall that some of the reasoning for making ENT a prequel was that there was a perception that the 24th century had become so unwieldy with the impressive episode count that they lost the general audience who was under the impression they would be lost if they tried to tune in mid-series, so why even bother. I'm sure that's also the reason 2009 and DIS were also rebooty prequels, so that people could jump in without having to watch 526 episodes of decades old TV.

but the only way to get Patrick Stewart to play ball was to bait him with season 1 & 2 of Picard which were entirely driven by his views as an actor
Some of the interviews regarding Season 3 made it seem he wasn't entirely onboard with the reunion direction the season was going to take. I wonder if they thought up the son angle so that he'd have some meaty scenes to play around that.
 
But not the overall ratings success they necessarily wanted. The numbers show a downward trend across those shows and each one was less and less successful. Same with the films. So, one way to interpret that is not the 24th century is specifically successful but that Picard on TNG was successful let's try that.

And it worked for this season. A Legacy series I'm not convinced will have the same pull unless it offers a similar carrot. Because this season wasn't much different from past seasons save for the very familiar and deliberate touchstone moments.
The problem was that Berman ran the formula for TNG into the ground.

DS9 was more of a Ron Moore and Ira Steven Behr operation (my understanding was that Berman concentrated on Voyager and for the most part left them alone to run their own house), and while not as successful as TNG, it was still I believe in the top five of syndicated dramas during its run back in the day. And DS9 was criticized during its original run for being the "dark" Star Trek series that was different. There was a contingent of Trek fans that believed it had betrayed Roddenberry's legacy.

Both Voyager and Enterprise were more firmly Berman-Braga productions and basically aped the TNG formula within their setting over and over again to the point of being stale. The one thing that struck me about watching Enterprise in the first 2 seasons when it was under their control as showrunners is how it takes no chances or deviations from Voyager or TNG, as far as music, tone, or just visual style.
I'll take the tone and style of SNW over the rest of post -TOS Trek any day.
To me, the tone of Strange New Worlds is the Discovery tone which leans into more of a Kelvin Universe-esque feel while not calling it that.
 
Don't they have two shows currently set in the 24th Century? Shows that came out before or concurrent with SNW?
Eh, both are animated and exist at the fringes of the the Star Trek Universe. LD is a show whose entire premise and comedy is only funny to hardcore fans. Prodigy had little to do with Starfleet besides Janeway and the Protostar for all of the first season. For the second season, it stuck closer, but is still pretty fringe-story 24th century.
 
The problem was that Berman ran the formula for TNG into the ground.

DS9 was more of a Ron Moore and Ira Steven Behr operation (my understanding was that Berman concentrated on Voyager and for the most part left them alone to run their own house), and while not as successful as TNG, it was still I believe in the top five of syndicated dramas during its run back in the day. And DS9 was criticized during its original run for being the "dark" Star Trek series that was different. There was a contingent of Trek fans that believed it had betrayed Roddenberry's legacy.

Both Voyager and Enterprise were more firmly Berman-Braga productions and basically aped the TNG formula within their setting over and over again to the point of being stale. The one thing that struck me about watching Enterprise in the first 2 seasons when it was under their control as showrunners is how it takes no chances or deviations from Voyager or TNG, as far as music, tone, or just visual style.

To me, the tone of Strange New Worlds is the Discovery tone which leans into more of a Kelvin Universe-esque feel while not calling it that.
Berman gets blamed, but that was not on on Berman. That's Trek fandom's short memory.

With Voyager, all the original EPs wanted a darker show were consequences mattered and carried forward week to week. Not exactly year of hell, but closer to Battlestar Galactica.

With Enterprise, Berman and Braga wanted a show that was again, highly serialized. The first season would be about getting the NX-01 built, and the first missions would commence in Season 2.

In the Voyager case, since Voyager was the lead show of the then new UPN network, the network executives wanted a highly accessible TNG clone. They said "do TNG".
In Enterrpise, since that was again going to be the lead show on UPN, the executives said "we want accessible, do Voyager".

In both cases, Berman was handcuffed to the demands of UPN, because launching that network (and the advertising revenue it would bring in) was considered vital to Paramount. Paramount had been wanting to launch a 4th (by the 90s, 6th) network since the late 1970s and Star Trek was always going to be a centerpiece. Berman and Braga had to fight tooth and nail to not only get Season 3 of Enterprise made, but also to have the serialized story finally done. And they had behind them 9 years of argument that a purely episodic show wasn't attracting audiences. Season 4 got made because the budget was cut massively (2/3rds or something). But Season 3 and 4 also had an enemy in the form of Les Moonves, who detested Sci Fi and Star Trek in particular. His becoming head of all of CBS (a promotion in 2003) is the singular event that led to Star Trek's cancellation. His exit is one reason it came back in streaming form (he was on his way out the door and the makeup of CBS All Access was left to subordinates).

There is no beating an executive who doesnt want you to exist. It's as simple as that.

The decline of Trek in the 90s is complex. Part of it is tied to the decline of syndication in general. By 1997, DS9 was pretty much the last major syndicated non-talk show. It suffered due to a fading model as network centralizaiton took root - namely the founding of WB, then UPN, and then in 2006, the CW merger. Also the spread of cable in the 1990s. DS9 was the last off a sinking ship.

Voyager? Being the centerpiece in the 6th place network that was only available in something like 40% of American homes at launch and 70% of its peak badly hurt it. As did the fact with a national timeslot as a network show, it was routinely preempted by sports (especially Hockey, which the smaller networks that carried UPN in major metro areas usually picked up as Football and baseball went to larger networks). This is the same for Enterprise, coupled with the breakout of broadband internet changing people's leisure habits. Target demographics stopped watching shows and started playing MMOs. The spread of DVD at the time also led to people waiting to buy entire seasons of shows on DVDs (and DVDs sold very well), a kind of precursor to binge watching.

None of this is to say that Berman (and later Braga) didn't make MASSIVE mistakes. Oh they did. They made decisions which directly undermined viewership of their shows. Ensign Kim, Mayweather and Chakotay were horrifically squandered characters. The mangling of the Borg three times a season undermined one of the Franchise's big draws. The "alien of the week" of Voyager, continuing into Enterprise, was a dated model that prevented people from becoming invested. Making Season 3 about the fucking Xindi (because who gives a fuck about a random new alien) instead of the Klingons or Romulans was a misfire from a "let's draw audiences in".

Seriously, they could have skipped ahead a few years at the end of Season 2, and done the Romulan War. But they decided to do yet another alien of the week (well the Season). I actually really like Season 3 but objectively, bad risk when your show is on the line.

The decline and end of Berman era has been discussed for nearly 20 years and is very, very complicated because it's only partially about Trek, and actually a lot about the change of how media was consumed, media company consolidation, production costs, internal company politics, technological advancement, advertising changes and so much more.

Could anyone have done better? I think that's hard to say. I think there are certainly things Berman and co fucked up that would have maybe bought them a bit more time. But I think no matter what they did, Les Moonves was lurking out there ready to kill Star Trek because he was a microdicked boomer who thought it was nerd shit. If Enterprise earned a Season 5, i doubt it would have been given a 6 simply because of that.

If anything, Berman's era, which is far more successful than unsuccessful and made Trek as most of us know it, is a textbook case of why its important for executive producers to know when they had their time and maybe its time to give someone else a shot because they're creatively exhausted. Why didn't Berman do this? My theory for 15 years has been he thought he and he alone could protect Star Trek and Gene's legacy (which he did zealously) from Paramount/CBS by utilizing his personal relationship with senior executive at CBS. That executive left as Moonves ascended. And sure enough, Star Trek and Berman were finished within 2 years.
 
Eh, both are animated and exist at the fringes of the the Star Trek Universe. LD is a show whose entire premise and comedy is only funny to hardcore fans. Prodigy had little to do with Starfleet besides Janeway and the Protostar for all of the first season. For the second season, it stuck closer, but is still pretty fringe-story 24th century.

The second season hasn't aired yet.

What we got was the back half of S1.
 
Berman gets blamed, but that was not on on Berman. That's Trek fandom's short memory.

With Voyager, all the original EPs wanted a darker show were consequences mattered and carried forward week to week. Not exactly year of hell, but closer to Battlestar Galactica.

With Enterprise, Berman and Braga wanted a show that was again, highly serialized. The first season would be about getting the NX-01 built, and the first missions would commence in Season 2.

In the Voyager case, since Voyager was the lead show of the then new UPN network, the network executives wanted a highly accessible TNG clone. They said "do TNG".
In Enterrpise, since that was again going to be the lead show on UPN, the executives said "we want accessible, do Voyager".

In both cases, Berman was handcuffed to the demands of UPN, because launching that network (and the advertising revenue it would bring in) was considered vital to Paramount. Paramount had been wanting to launch a 4th (by the 90s, 6th) network since the late 1970s and Star Trek was always going to be a centerpiece. Berman and Braga had to fight tooth and nail to not only get Season 3 of Enterprise made, but also to have the serialized story finally done. And they had behind them 9 years of argument that a purely episodic show wasn't attracting audiences. Season 4 got made because the budget was cut massively (2/3rds or something). But Season 3 and 4 also had an enemy in the form of Les Moonves, who detested Sci Fi and Star Trek in particular. His becoming head of all of CBS (a promotion in 2003) is the singular event that led to Star Trek's cancellation. His exit is one reason it came back in streaming form (he was on his way out the door and the makeup of CBS All Access was left to subordinates).

There is no beating an executive who doesnt want you to exist. It's as simple as that.

The decline of Trek in the 90s is complex. Part of it is tied to the decline of syndication in general. By 1997, DS9 was pretty much the last major syndicated non-talk show. It suffered due to a fading model as network centralizaiton took root - namely the founding of WB, then UPN, and then in 2006, the CW merger. Also the spread of cable in the 1990s. DS9 was the last off a sinking ship.

Voyager? Being the centerpiece in the 6th place network that was only available in something like 40% of American homes at launch and 70% of its peak badly hurt it. As did the fact with a national timeslot as a network show, it was routinely preempted by sports (especially Hockey, which the smaller networks that carried UPN in major metro areas usually picked up as Football and baseball went to larger networks). This is the same for Enterprise, coupled with the breakout of broadband internet changing people's leisure habits. Target demographics stopped watching shows and started playing MMOs. The spread of DVD at the time also led to people waiting to buy entire seasons of shows on DVDs (and DVDs sold very well), a kind of precursor to binge watching.

None of this is to say that Berman (and later Braga) didn't make MASSIVE mistakes. Oh they did. They made decisions which directly undermined viewership of their shows. Ensign Kim, Mayweather and Chakotay were horrifically squandered characters. The mangling of the Borg three times a season undermined one of the Franchise's big draws. The "alien of the week" of Voyager, continuing into Enterprise, was a dated model that prevented people from becoming invested. Making Season 3 about the fucking Xindi (because who gives a fuck about a random new alien) instead of the Klingons or Romulans was a misfire from a "let's draw audiences in".

Seriously, they could have skipped ahead a few years at the end of Season 2, and done the Romulan War. But they decided to do yet another alien of the week (well the Season). I actually really like Season 3 but objectively, bad risk when your show is on the line.

The decline and end of Berman era has been discussed for nearly 20 years and is very, very complicated because it's only partially about Trek, and actually a lot about the change of how media was consumed, media company consolidation, production costs, internal company politics, technological advancement, advertising changes and so much more.

Could anyone have done better? I think that's hard to say. I think there are certainly things Berman and co fucked up that would have maybe bought them a bit more time. But I think no matter what they did, Les Moonves was lurking out there ready to kill Star Trek because he was a microdicked boomer who thought it was nerd shit. If Enterprise earned a Season 5, i doubt it would have been given a 6 simply because of that.

If anything, Berman's era, which is far more successful than unsuccessful and made Trek as most of us know it, is a textbook case of why its important for executive producers to know when they had their time and maybe its time to give someone else a shot because they're creatively exhausted. Why didn't Berman do this? My theory for 15 years has been he thought he and he alone could protect Star Trek and Gene's legacy (which he did zealously) from Paramount/CBS by utilizing his personal relationship with senior executive at CBS. That executive left as Moonves ascended. And sure enough, Star Trek and Berman were finished within 2 years.

Yeah Les Moonves was a tool, but Berman has been vindicated by history, TNG, DS9, Voy, & Ent all had megatons of views on Netflix, which is what got Netflix to drop a crazy ton of money on Discovery for the none US & Canada market,basically making seasons 1-3 I think free for CBS.

The irony is is that the series they really wanted was more akin to SNWs or Star Trek Legacy.

If Enterprise was as popular when it came out as it is now, it'd have gotten 7 seasons Les Moonves be damned.
 
But not the overall ratings success they necessarily wanted. The numbers show a downward trend across those shows and each one was less and less successful. Same with the films. So, one way to interpret that is not the 24th century is specifically successful but that Picard on TNG was successful let's try that.

And it worked for this season. A Legacy series I'm not convinced will have the same pull unless it offers a similar carrot. Because this season wasn't much different from past seasons save for the very familiar and deliberate touchstone moments.

As I said before Streaming made all the Berman Era Star Treks hugely successful long after they were cancelled, its one of life's huge ironies. The Berman era was before its time.
 
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