Oh, No, another Slap on the Wrist from Janeway.
- Thread starter Newski
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I'm in the military. Some leaders pat you on the shoulder and try to be your buddy. Some scream in your face. Others rely on their natural charm. There's no perfect cookie-cutter reponse any given leader will have in any given situation. A leader having a "human moment" in the face of a heavy professional and personal burden isn't going to make me respect them any less. I don't get why civillians think millitary leaders must be flawless or disipline will fly out the window. Most of us pee-ons are more resillient than that.
I fail to see how Janeway "manipulates" anything in this scene. Chakotard had his orders. She didn't have to try to convince him of anything. She made an off-the-cuff remark driven by the weight of the descision she was currently contemplating. Unless you're determined to see Janeway in a bad light, this seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill. The remark in question had little to do with her skills as a leader and more to do with her friendship with Chakotard.
Well, maybe the Janeway/Chakotay friendship wasn't really so one-sided. She risked her ship to go after his supposed baby, after all. And she comforted him on more than one occasion (even when he might have done something untoward), & really let him get more familiar with her than, say, Picard did with Riker. Sometimes I thought (even tho I liked Chakotay) that he even got a bit presumtuous with her (altho sometimes it might have been needed), like in Scorpion when he said "we'll make the right decision" - no, she's the captain, she has to make the decisions after consulting with her advisors. Just MHO! GS
Think of your worst enemy in real life. That bastard who stole your pen and thought he could try to makeout with you at the Christmas party (revolve genders appropriately.)... Now imagine, that guy, yeah THAT GUY, had the balls, the condemnable gumption to say: "Please don't let my baby be raised by Nazi Monkees(Unintentional typo, but I like it better this way.) in the boondocks".
I wonder if Janeway would have risked ship and limb to "save" the baby if even Seska had asked to? Y'know as a deathbed wish.
I wonder if Janeway would have risked ship and limb to "save" the baby if even Seska had asked to? Y'know as a deathbed wish.
Actually, I think that your use of "Chakotard" shows a bit of bias from you, too, doesn't it?
I won't lie, I don't find Janeway a consistent leader, therefore she isn't a compelling leader to me. But I also find the use of tears in this instance to be *really* off-putting. This is not because I'm "determined to see Janeway in a bad light." It's one of the things that *leads me* to see her in a bad light.
So how abusive would someone have to be to end a friendship with you?
Good points.
Actually, I think that your use of "Chakotard" shows a bit of bias from you, too, doesn't it?
I won't lie, I don't find Janeway a consistent leader, therefore she isn't a compelling leader to me. But I also find the use of tears in this instance to be *really* off-putting. This is not because I'm "determined to see Janeway in a bad light." It's one of the things that *leads me* to see her in a bad light.
I hate Chakotard. You bet I'm biased. He was a badly written character, and a stupid man. My only beef is when people seem to think Chakotard being a weenie was somehow Janeway's fault, or that his was a much put-upon victim of Janeway's whims. Get real. He was a big boy and he made his own decisions. His being pathetic is his own problem.
Anyway, I love the fact she's not consistent. Her flaws are what make her my favorite character. I'm perfectly aware she was a wonky captain, and probably bipolar (if mental illness still exists in the 24th century), but that's what I love about her. Other people see her flaws as a reason to dislike her. Whatever. It's all good in the hood.
As for "tears," she didn't cry in that scene. She made a comment. I still fail to see how she was trying to "manipulate" Chakotard into action when she had already made a choice and he had his orders. It doesn't make much sense. As for her display of emotion, she wasn't "crying and pouting," she made a comment. That's it. Was it "emotional?" Sure. Do para-military leaders displaying emotion undermine the command structure? No.
Actually, I think that your use of "Chakotard" shows a bit of bias from you, too, doesn't it?
I won't lie, I don't find Janeway a consistent leader, therefore she isn't a compelling leader to me. But I also find the use of tears in this instance to be *really* off-putting. This is not because I'm "determined to see Janeway in a bad light." It's one of the things that *leads me* to see her in a bad light.
I hate Chakotard. You bet I'm biased. He was a badly written character, and a stupid man. My only beef is when people seem to think Chakotard being a weenie was somehow Janeway's fault, or that his was a much put-upon victim of Janeway's whims. Get real. He was a big boy and he made his own decisions. His being pathetic is his own problem.
Anyway, I love the fact she's not consistent. Her flaws are what make her my favorite character. I'm perfectly aware she was a wonky captain, and probably bipolar (if mental illness still exists in the 24th century), but that's what I love about her. Other people see her flaws as a reason to dislike her. Whatever. It's all good in the hood.
As for "tears," she didn't cry in that scene. She made a comment. I still fail to see how she was trying to "manipulate" Chakotard into action when she had already made a choice and he had his orders. It doesn't make much sense. As for her display of emotion, she wasn't "crying and pouting," she made a comment. That's it. Was it "emotional?" Sure. Do para-military leaders displaying emotion undermine the command structure? No.
Oh, yeah. I'm with you 100%.
"Bipolar," "Wonky," mentally ill people should not be in charge of WMDs - that is, captaining a starship.
Or didn't we learn anything from "The Wounded"?
"Bipolar," "Wonky," mentally ill people should not be in charge of WMDs - that is, captaining a starship.
She was bipolar because the character was written unevenly. I don't think Janeway was mentally ill. I like her flaws, too. A perfect captain would be boring, don't you think?
the eveness of how she is written is the factuality of her characters acuity.
The producers rewrite every script to assure tone and clarity.
It appears in retrospect that that goal was beyond these monkeys.
The producers rewrite every script to assure tone and clarity.
It appears in retrospect that that goal was beyond these monkeys.
"Bipolar," "Wonky," mentally ill people should not be in charge of WMDs - that is, captaining a starship.
She was bipolar because the character was written unevenly. I don't think Janeway was mentally ill. I like her flaws, too. A perfect captain would be boring, don't you think?
I don't think she was mentally ill or (actually) bipolar either, I was just making a point. Not being perfect is one thing... but Starfleet Command wisely has regs about mentally unbalanced people being in command of a starship. Mother-hen-ish? Sacrificing of principles? Ivory-tower-smug about morality? Those make her an imperfect captain, but a (potentially) compelling one. There's a spectrum of "flaws" out there, and "mental illness" I don't think is a good one for a starship captain to have.
I guess most of us have lapses during times of high stress and pressure. I'm willing to give Janeway the benefit of the doubt because of her unique position and situation.
However, I do have serious issues with her backstory in Jeri Taylor's novel "Mosaic." I can't imagine that an officer who has experienced such a terrible depression would ever pass muster to be a ship's captain. My only explanation is that there are treatments in the future that provide permanent cures to such psychological issues.
However, I do have serious issues with her backstory in Jeri Taylor's novel "Mosaic." I can't imagine that an officer who has experienced such a terrible depression would ever pass muster to be a ship's captain. My only explanation is that there are treatments in the future that provide permanent cures to such psychological issues.
^^
"Mosaic" is a great book but Janeway's background story still gives me some headache. I think that she seems to be a bit wimpy and unsecure from being a child to her becoming Captain, there must have been some significant change between her graduation from the Academy and her being Captain on Voyager.
Not to mention that she obviosly still had that surpressed memory from the accident, what really happened and how guilty she felt over not being able to save her Dad and fiance. First when the away team was facing a very dangerous situation and the ship itself faced destruction did the surpressed memory came up and she was able to handle it. Since the story, due to my investigations took part between "Meld" and "Dreadnought" in season 2, we can assume that Janeway up until that was actually struggling with the surpressed memory from the tragic accident.
"Mosaic" is a great book but Janeway's background story still gives me some headache. I think that she seems to be a bit wimpy and unsecure from being a child to her becoming Captain, there must have been some significant change between her graduation from the Academy and her being Captain on Voyager.
Not to mention that she obviosly still had that surpressed memory from the accident, what really happened and how guilty she felt over not being able to save her Dad and fiance. First when the away team was facing a very dangerous situation and the ship itself faced destruction did the surpressed memory came up and she was able to handle it. Since the story, due to my investigations took part between "Meld" and "Dreadnought" in season 2, we can assume that Janeway up until that was actually struggling with the surpressed memory from the tragic accident.
Isn't that called "woman's perogative"?
"Bipolar," "Wonky," mentally ill people should not be in charge of WMDs - that is, captaining a starship.
She was bipolar because the character was written unevenly. I don't think Janeway was mentally ill. I like her flaws, too. A perfect captain would be boring, don't you think?
She's not a woman. She's a Starship Captain.
She might eventually describe herself as a woman, but I doubt it's in her top 5 or my top twenty.
She might eventually describe herself as a woman, but I doubt it's in her top 5 or my top twenty.
Actually, I think that your use of "Chakotard" shows a bit of bias from you, too, doesn't it?
I won't lie, I don't find Janeway a consistent leader, therefore she isn't a compelling leader to me. But I also find the use of tears in this instance to be *really* off-putting. This is not because I'm "determined to see Janeway in a bad light." It's one of the things that *leads me* to see her in a bad light.
I hate Chakotard. You bet I'm biased. He was a badly written character, and a stupid man. My only beef is when people seem to think Chakotard being a weenie was somehow Janeway's fault, or that his was a much put-upon victim of Janeway's whims. Get real. He was a big boy and he made his own decisions. His being pathetic is his own problem.
Anyway, I love the fact she's not consistent. Her flaws are what make her my favorite character. I'm perfectly aware she was a wonky captain, and probably bipolar (if mental illness still exists in the 24th century), but that's what I love about her. Other people see her flaws as a reason to dislike her. Whatever. It's all good in the hood.
As for "tears," she didn't cry in that scene. She made a comment. I still fail to see how she was trying to "manipulate" Chakotard into action when she had already made a choice and he had his orders. It doesn't make much sense. As for her display of emotion, she wasn't "crying and pouting," she made a comment. That's it. Was it "emotional?" Sure. Do para-military leaders displaying emotion undermine the command structure? No.
Don't get me wrong, I like flawed characters. They're more interesting.
I just don't like Janeway.
And, guess what? I'm entitled to have that opinion on this board, whether you think it has any validity or not.
What Guy Gardener means is that defining Janeway by sex is rather foolish
. Very few people see themselves in terms of sex, particularly in a society where distinct gender roles have broken down. Janeway is many other things before she is a woman.