Oh, No, another Slap on the Wrist from Janeway.

[Zameaze]

I'm not going back on that simply because the moderator tells me to swallow an opinion. Sorry.

You have my vote for captain of the USS Voyager. Do you perchance have any Klingon blood in you?

 

[RandyS]

Well, there was the time that she had the first Ensign Kim blown out the airlock for insubordination, but he doesn't really count... I mean, they found a clone 2 episodes later.

No, he fell out by accident when he couldn't keep hold of B'Elanna's hand. The Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman from the duplicate Voyager ended up changing ships.

And it wasn't two episodes later. It was the same episode.

 

[kimc]

I think the tears in her eyes come from the sorrow she feels about what has happened between them more than pity for herself. Their attempt to bridge the chasm between captain and crew has failed. The comment and the tears in her eyes show us that she has decided against his advice at a high price and that she deeply regrets having to do it.

Which normally wouldn't be that big a deal in the alpha quadrant where she would have backup but out in the delt quarant the realization that the bridge between captain and crew they thought they were building was most likely not going to stand the trials they were facing was a sobering moment.

In the use of her personality and charisma, Janeway is very much like Kirk. I, too, have seen all of the TOS episodes and movies, and it is obvious that Kirk knowingly flirts and/or manipulates people whenever it serves his interest--and especially when he is confronted with a female. It is such a chiche, that, in "The Undiscovered Country," when he befriends a female on Rura Penthe and the woman kisses him, Bones comments, "What is it with you, Jim?" I still chuckle when I remember that scene.

I've also seen all the TOS episodes and movies multiple times (gee those VHS tapes take a lot of space) and the scene you mention is one of my faves.

I think it would be cool to somehow have Kirk and Janeway in the same adventure together. I know it's not likely but it would be fun.

 

[kes7]

I think the tears in her eyes come from the sorrow she feels about what has happened between them more than pity for herself. Their attempt to bridge the chasm between captain and crew has failed. The comment and the tears in her eyes show us that she has decided against his advice at a high price and that she deeply regrets having to do it.

Which normally wouldn't be that big a deal in the alpha quadrant where she would have backup but out in the delt quarant the realization that the bridge between captain and crew they thought they were building was most likely not going to stand the trials they were facing was a sobering moment.

In the use of her personality and charisma, Janeway is very much like Kirk. I, too, have seen all of the TOS episodes and movies, and it is obvious that Kirk knowingly flirts and/or manipulates people whenever it serves his interest--and especially when he is confronted with a female. It is such a chiche, that, in "The Undiscovered Country," when he befriends a female on Rura Penthe and the woman kisses him, Bones comments, "What is it with you, Jim?" I still chuckle when I remember that scene.

I've also seen all the TOS episodes and movies multiple times (gee those VHS tapes take a lot of space) and the scene you mention is one of my faves.

I think it would be cool to somehow have Kirk and Janeway in the same adventure together. I know it's not likely but it would be fun.

Kirk and Janeway together would be awesome. THAT is a shipper pairing I could get behind ...

 

[Thestral]

I think the tears in her eyes come from the sorrow she feels about what has happened between them more than pity for herself. Their attempt to bridge the chasm between captain and crew has failed. The comment and the tears in her eyes show us that she has decided against his advice at a high price and that she deeply regrets having to do it.

Which normally wouldn't be that big a deal in the alpha quadrant where she would have backup but out in the delt quarant the realization that the bridge between captain and crew they thought they were building was most likely not going to stand the trials they were facing was a sobering moment.

In the use of her personality and charisma, Janeway is very much like Kirk. I, too, have seen all of the TOS episodes and movies, and it is obvious that Kirk knowingly flirts and/or manipulates people whenever it serves his interest--and especially when he is confronted with a female. It is such a chiche, that, in "The Undiscovered Country," when he befriends a female on Rura Penthe and the woman kisses him, Bones comments, "What is it with you, Jim?" I still chuckle when I remember that scene.

I've also seen all the TOS episodes and movies multiple times (gee those VHS tapes take a lot of space) and the scene you mention is one of my faves.

I think it would be cool to somehow have Kirk and Janeway in the same adventure together. I know it's not likely but it would be fun.

Kirk and Janeway together would be awesome. THAT is a shipper pairing I could get behind ...

Didn't they try that in "Turnabout Intruder"?

I keed, I keed!!! (Lord, what an awful episode that was)

 

[kes7]

Kirk and Janeway together would be awesome. THAT is a shipper pairing I could get behind ...

Didn't they try that in "Turnabout Intruder"?

I keed, I keed!!! (Lord, what an awful episode that was)

Haha, I had to look that one up. So true! Maybe not such a good idea after all ...

 

[kimc]

Didn't they try that in "Turnabout Intruder"?

I keed, I keed!!! (Lord, what an awful episode that was)

Just when I thought I had successfully erased that episode from my memory! Thanks - not!

I think it would be fun to see Kirk & Janeway in the same adventure but not necessarily as a ship. They're too much alike to work as a couple but the "sibling banter" could be a hoot.

 

[exodus]

Ah, but I LOVE that about her--it's so HUMAN. A good leader knows that there is a personal element in leadership and will use whatever wiles necessary to ensure that her/his followers are behind her/him. And remember--that comment is made in the same episode where she says that she couldn't imagine a day without him, which is just as manipulative, IMHO. It was the "theme of the day."

The thing is I really believed her when she said that. That's one thing that makes the relationship so complex. She's his commanding officer yet they have a personal relationship such that she can't imagine a day without him.

BTW, while I can't picture Picard saying such a thing to any of his crew how many times have we seen Kirk use his personal friendship with Spock or McCoy to get them to follow him? Charisma is a tool that leaders like Kirk and Janeway use. It's not that they're being dishonest or manipulative - they're using their charm and the truth of their feelings to accomplish a specific goal.

I have watched every episode of every series--and more than once--and I guarantee that Kirk never used his charisma like that.

Janeway played a girl. She pouted. She cried. That is quite simply unprofessional.

Tears do not garner you respect in the workplace.

That is *absolutely* manipulative.

And what had Chakotay done? He'd said that he would follow her orders even though he disagreed with them.

In other words, she gave him the "oh, woe is me, poor Kathryn," because her XO was doing his job.

That is *not* leadership.

Well said.

 

[AuntKate]

The thing is I really believed her when she said that. That's one thing that makes the relationship so complex. She's his commanding officer yet they have a personal relationship such that she can't imagine a day without him.

BTW, while I can't picture Picard saying such a thing to any of his crew how many times have we seen Kirk use his personal friendship with Spock or McCoy to get them to follow him? Charisma is a tool that leaders like Kirk and Janeway use. It's not that they're being dishonest or manipulative - they're using their charm and the truth of their feelings to accomplish a specific goal.

I have watched every episode of every series--and more than once--and I guarantee that Kirk never used his charisma like that.

Janeway played a girl. She pouted. She cried. That is quite simply unprofessional.

Tears do not garner you respect in the workplace.

That is *absolutely* manipulative.

And what had Chakotay done? He'd said that he would follow her orders even though he disagreed with them.

In other words, she gave him the "oh, woe is me, poor Kathryn," because her XO was doing his job.

That is *not* leadership.

Well said.

But, she said that as a friend, not as a leader. The "professional" discussion was over--he had his orders. She said that moments later, as the personal impact of their argument sunk in. They are, after all, both officers and friends. It says a lot about the depth of their friendship that she is able to voice those feelings to him.

 

[Galekarens]

Well, said, to you, AuntKate. Thanks, GS.

 

[exodus]

I have watched every episode of every series--and more than once--and I guarantee that Kirk never used his charisma like that.

Janeway played a girl. She pouted. She cried. That is quite simply unprofessional.

Tears do not garner you respect in the workplace.

That is *absolutely* manipulative.

And what had Chakotay done? He'd said that he would follow her orders even though he disagreed with them.

In other words, she gave him the "oh, woe is me, poor Kathryn," because her XO was doing his job.

That is *not* leadership.

Well said.

But, she said that as a friend, not as a leader. The "professional" discussion was over--he had his orders. She said that moments later, as the personal impact of their argument sunk in. They are, after all, both officers and friends. It says a lot about the depth of their friendship that she is able to voice those feelings to him.

Regardless, that type of comment was insulting even as a friend.
Just because he didn't agree with her idea, there was no reason to throw it back in his face. I don't know about you but I don't treat the people I see as good friends by insulting them based on my own personal choices. Chakotay is First Officer, not only does he speak for himself but he is the voice of the rest of the crew too. If he was also speaking for he crew, then the last dig dismisses them as well.

Yes, it does say allot about their friendship. It says she doesn't respect him.

Kirk, Picard & Sisko have never stooped to insulting their First Officers over a command disagreement and we all know Sisko was given plenty reasons at times when it came to Kira. His respect for her as his first and as a person never allowed him to cross that line.

Just put youyrself in Chakotay's shoes. How would you feel if a good friend said that to you after you had been unwaveringly loyal to them for over 3 years. He even jeopardized the loyality of his own crew and their way home supporting her choice to get them stranded there in the first place and she has the nerve to tell him: "Well, I guess I really am alone."

Are you kidding me?

 

[Unimatrix_0]

It seems to me that every time somebody acted out of control, obeyed a direct order, or overall just acted like a Jerk, Janeway would pretty much much tell them she's really disappointed and not take any further action. Can somebody help me with examples of this?

Or am I just remembering things the wrong way? I mean, I know she busted Paris down to Ensign (for like a week....) but that's besides the point.

In the first season episode (can't remember the name), when they encounter the species with the space folding technology, she busts down B'Elanna with Tuvok present and tells B'Elanna that she doesn't have the luxury of putting her in the brig, she needs every single person to make sure the ship is running efficiently. That would probably explain why Janeway could not take serious action (other than demoting someone like Tom Paris). I think 'Good Shepherd' is a great follow-up because like Janeway said in this episode, if they were back home, she would just transfer them off the ship, but in the DQ, she needs everyone.

 

[Lynx]

Don'r forget that Janeway was in a very pressing situation.

The ship was lost 70 000 or so light years from home. They didn't know when or if they would be able to come home. Besides that, about 30 members of the crew weren't even Starfleet. They were Maquis or people from the Delta Quadrant who they had picked up during the way. Even if Janeway tried to maintain some sort of Starfleet rigamarole in that situation, she was wise enough to bend the rues sometimes.

Besides that, she was huma, she showed emotions. That's natural.

 

[teya]

To me, "Scorpion" is the episode where they realize how truly dangerous a romantic relationship could be between them.

I agree with you there. It is where I absolutely decided that J/C was a ship that shouldn't and wouldn't sail.

Where we differ is that I think the J/C ship would sail about five minutes after reaching a Federation space dock.

You can have the Chakotay that would go from "I'll stay within transporter range of you" to "Bye, Seven, Kathryn's available now!" in 5 minutes. He's certainly not a guy I'd want to know.

 

[teya]

I'm not going back on that simply because the moderator tells me to swallow an opinion. Sorry.

You have my vote for captain of the USS Voyager. Do you perchance have any Klingon blood in you?

Oh, I'm *so* B'Elanna....



A friend wrote a Klingon character named after me in his fanfic. I was truly honored.

 

[teya]

Just put youyrself in Chakotay's shoes. How would you feel if a good friend said that to you after you had unwaveringly loyal to them for over 3 years. He even jeopardized the loyality of his own crew and their way home supporting her choice to get them stranded there in the first place and she has the nerve to tell him: "Well, I guess I really am alone."

Are you kidding me?

Well said.

And when you put it that way, that would be a friendship I'd have to rethink.

 

[kimc]

^ A friend who would like to dump me would have to try a LOT harder than that!

kimc, sticks to friends like velcro

 

[teya]

^ A friend who would like to dump me would have to try a LOT harder than that!

kimc, sticks to friends like velcro

Well, I've got people I've been friends with for longer than you've been alive.

However, one friendship did go by the wayside after I realized that for the 20 years we'd known each other, the friendship was my supporting her exclusively. It wasn't a two-way street.

And, frankly, that seems to be the Janeway-Chakotay friendship, too. It's all about support for her. That's not a real friendship to me.

 

[kimc]

^ A friend who would like to dump me would have to try a LOT harder than that!

kimc, sticks to friends like velcro

Well, I've got people I've been friends with for longer than you've been alive.

However, one friendship did go by the wayside after I realized that for the 20 years we'd known each other, the friendship was my supporting her exclusively. It wasn't a two-way street.

And, frankly, that seems to be the Janeway-Chakotay friendship, too. It's all about support for her. That's not a real friendship to me.

So what's stopping Janeway from saying "Chakotay, you're now in command. I'm going to be in the holodeck for the rest of the trip."

Janeway's burden is great and Chakotay is smart and loyal enough to know this. There were also times during the voyage when she had to be there for him. Friendships are never 50/50 all the time.

A good friend of mine has been having complications while carrying twins and believe me it's been ALL about her lately. I've heard more about her uterus, cervix, etc. than I've ever wanted to. At the point of the "flying blood clot story" I really wanted to jump up and shout "Let's talk about ME for a minute!" but somehow managed to refrain.

This is also the same friend who spent hours frantically trying to reach me the day that bridge fell in Minneapolis because she knew I drove home that way. She's a keeper.

 

[teya]

Friendships are never 50/50 all the time.

And I never said they were.

A good friend of mine has been having complications while carrying twins and believe me it's been ALL about her lately. I've heard more about her uterus, cervix, etc. than I've ever wanted to. At the point of the "flying blood clot story" I really wanted to jump up and shout "Let's talk about ME for a minute!" but somehow managed to refrain.

As it should be, given the situation.

This is also the same friend who spent hours frantically trying to reach me the day that bridge fell in Minneapolis because she knew I drove home that way. She's a keeper.

Sounds like it.

Now, my friend.

After supporting her through a horrible marriage and divorce, and through many trials and tribulations in her life, what do you think she did when my sweetie was sick and after he died?

Nothing. No calls. No letters. No cards. No nothing. And yes, she knew. I'd kept in touch enough to keep her updated on what was going on.

She called me a year later and said, "Where have you been?"

Now, if that makes me a horrible person for dumping her, then so be it. I understand that some people can't handle medical stuff. But for a close friend to not even call and say "I'm sorry for your loss, he was a good man." Or "hey, I know it's rough but I'm thinking of you."

I do believe that friendships have to be give and take at least some of the time.

YMMV and probably--as with everything we discuss--does.