Oh, No, another Slap on the Wrist from Janeway.

[teya]

Really, there are only a few times when Janeway refuses to listen to advice. The biggest is, of course, "Equinox." Another is "The Void," when she refuses to let go of Federation ideals. She is more than willing to follow the advice of her subordinates in "The Alliance" with almost disastrous results. Ultimately, she is required to listen to advice, but not to follow it. She is the captain, after all.

And then there was "Scorpion."

Yes, she's the captain. However, it's hardly professional to get your point across by batting your eyes, sniffing sadly and saying, "I guess I really am alone" simply because your first officer voices an opinion contrary to yours.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She is too soft on her subordinates when they make mistakes. The biggest example of that has to be with the EMH after his betrayal of the ship and crew in "Flesh and Blood." She acquiesces quickly when the crew refuses to follow her orders to leave her behind in "Night." She does little more than chew out Tuvok after he bought the transporter device in "Prime Factors."

Don't forget that she promoted him to Lieutenant a couple weeks later. HAD A PARTY AND EVERYTHING. One would have assumed if it hadn't been for Prime factors that his promotion bump would have been a little bigger and Chakotay wouldn't have been the XO no more.

 

[kimc]

She is too soft on her subordinates when they make mistakes. The biggest example of that has to be with the EMH after his betrayal of the ship and crew in "Flesh and Blood." She acquiesces quickly when the crew refuses to follow her orders to leave her behind in "Night." She does little more than chew out Tuvok after he bought the transporter device in "Prime Factors."

Don't forget that she promoted him to Lieutenant a couple weeks later. HAD A PARTY AND EVERYTHING. One would have assumed if it hadn't been for Prime factors that his promotion bump would have been a little bigger and Chakotay wouldn't have been the XO no more.

BTW, that scene between Janeway and Tuvok is really a tear-jerker. I believe she understood why he did what he did and what he was trying to spare her from. At the same time his actions did make maintaining discipline on the ship a bit more difficult as things turned out with Jonas, Seska, etc. I think both actors did a fabulous job portraying the complexity of the relationship and the situation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Really, there are only a few times when Janeway refuses to listen to advice. The biggest is, of course, "Equinox." Another is "The Void," when she refuses to let go of Federation ideals. She is more than willing to follow the advice of her subordinates in "The Alliance" with almost disastrous results. Ultimately, she is required to listen to advice, but not to follow it. She is the captain, after all.

And then there was "Scorpion."

Yes, she's the captain. However, it's hardly professional to get your point across by batting your eyes, sniffing sadly and saying, "I guess I really am alone" simply because your first officer voices an opinion contrary to yours.

I liked it Year of hell when she was saying,"Damn it! Lets be proactive, get out into space and be cosmic adventurers! HO!"

The Borgette responded "But captain we have no shields. If we run into even a small dust cloud, we will be shredded."

The Catain laughed like she had swollen balls, "Shields?! ...I don't need no stinking shields."

She is insane.

 

[kimc]

Really, there are only a few times when Janeway refuses to listen to advice. The biggest is, of course, "Equinox." Another is "The Void," when she refuses to let go of Federation ideals. She is more than willing to follow the advice of her subordinates in "The Alliance" with almost disastrous results. Ultimately, she is required to listen to advice, but not to follow it. She is the captain, after all.

And then there was "Scorpion."

Yes, she's the captain. However, it's hardly professional to get your point across by batting your eyes, sniffing sadly and saying, "I guess I really am alone" simply because your first officer voices an opinion contrary to yours.

I liked it Year of hell when she was saying,"Damn it! Lets be proactive, get out into space and be cosmic adventurers! HO!"

The Borgette responded "But captain we have no shields. If we run into even a small dust cloud, we will be shredded."

The Catain laughed like she had swollen balls, "Shields?! ...I don't need no stinking shields."

She is insane.

Did she really say "stinking shields"? I don't normally watch that episode due to the reset factor but that doesn't sound like her.

 

[Guy Gardener]

TORRES: I'm still having trouble with the starboard nacelle.
JANEWAY: How long?
TORRES: Three weeks, minimum.
JANEWAY: I thought this nebula would be a safe haven until we finished repairs, but it's turning into a permanent residence. We've got to get back into open space, find allies, put together a fighting force to take on Annorax. We're leaving this damn cloud first thing tomorrow morning.
SEVEN: Captain, you are in error.
JANEWAY: Really.
SEVEN: At the moment this vessel is defenceless. We should remain here until we are functioning at our peak efficiency.
JANEWAY: I appreciate your opinion, Seven, but I disagree. We leave tomorrow, oh eight hundred hours.

Dramatic license.

 

[AuntKate]

Really, there are only a few times when Janeway refuses to listen to advice. The biggest is, of course, "Equinox." Another is "The Void," when she refuses to let go of Federation ideals. She is more than willing to follow the advice of her subordinates in "The Alliance" with almost disastrous results. Ultimately, she is required to listen to advice, but not to follow it. She is the captain, after all.

And then there was "Scorpion."

Yes, she's the captain. However, it's hardly professional to get your point across by batting your eyes, sniffing sadly and saying, "I guess I really am alone" simply because your first officer voices an opinion contrary to yours.

Ah, but I LOVE that about her--it's so HUMAN. A good leader knows that there is a personal element in leadership and will use whatever wiles necessary to ensure that her/his followers are behind her/him. And remember--that comment is made in the same episode where she says that she couldn't imagine a day without him, which is just as manipulative, IMHO. It was the "theme of the day."

 

[teya]

Really, there are only a few times when Janeway refuses to listen to advice. The biggest is, of course, "Equinox." Another is "The Void," when she refuses to let go of Federation ideals. She is more than willing to follow the advice of her subordinates in "The Alliance" with almost disastrous results. Ultimately, she is required to listen to advice, but not to follow it. She is the captain, after all.

And then there was "Scorpion."

Yes, she's the captain. However, it's hardly professional to get your point across by batting your eyes, sniffing sadly and saying, "I guess I really am alone" simply because your first officer voices an opinion contrary to yours.

Ah, but I LOVE that about her--it's so HUMAN. A good leader knows that there is a personal element in leadership and will use whatever wiles necessary to ensure that her/his followers are behind her/him. And remember--that comment is made in the same episode where she says that she couldn't imagine a day without him, which is just as manipulative, IMHO. It was the "theme of the day."

Only on television would that rally the troops behind someone.

If my boss tried to pull that on me, I would *not* be rallying behind her. Nor would anyone else in this department.

You do not achieve leadership by making someone pity you.

 

[kimc]

Really, there are only a few times when Janeway refuses to listen to advice. The biggest is, of course, "Equinox." Another is "The Void," when she refuses to let go of Federation ideals. She is more than willing to follow the advice of her subordinates in "The Alliance" with almost disastrous results. Ultimately, she is required to listen to advice, but not to follow it. She is the captain, after all.

And then there was "Scorpion."

Yes, she's the captain. However, it's hardly professional to get your point across by batting your eyes, sniffing sadly and saying, "I guess I really am alone" simply because your first officer voices an opinion contrary to yours.

Ah, but I LOVE that about her--it's so HUMAN. A good leader knows that there is a personal element in leadership and will use whatever wiles necessary to ensure that her/his followers are behind her/him. And remember--that comment is made in the same episode where she says that she couldn't imagine a day without him, which is just as manipulative, IMHO. It was the "theme of the day."

The thing is I really believed her when she said that. That's one thing that makes the relationship so complex. She's his commanding officer yet they have a personal relationship such that she can't imagine a day without him.

BTW, while I can't picture Picard saying such a thing to any of his crew how many times have we seen Kirk use his personal friendship with Spock or McCoy to get them to follow him? Charisma is a tool that leaders like Kirk and Janeway use. It's not that they're being dishonest or manipulative - they're using their charm and the truth of their feelings to accomplish a specific goal.

 

[Lynx]

I think that Janeway was a very good captain in seasons 1-3, somewhat badly written in seasons 4-7. I never understood that thing with Tom. Putting him in the brig was very "un-Janeway" to say the least. Maybe Tieran did survive and took over her in the later seasons.

Anyway, what I really like with Janeway is that she seem to care for her crewmembers. She was ready to sacrifice herself to save Kes in "Sacred Ground" and sheoften took more risks than she was supposed to do as a captain to help any crewmember in trouble.

I also like her attitude to her crewmembers and that she could be flexible in situations when it was needed. While Picard could be stiff and rigid at times, Sisko could be moody and introvert and Kirk could be a real a**hole, Janeway could adapt to the situation and bend the rules a little.

Like in "Maneuvers" when Chakotay did run a way to face Seska and the Kazon to take back the transpoter the Kazon had stolen. Janeway was p***ed off with Chakotay's behavior but she actually listened when Torres asked her not to punish Chakotay for disobeying orders. Instead they went after him and rescued him from the Kazon.

As for Janeway and Chakotay, I see no reason why they should fight about things. They worked good together and there was a mutual understanding between them.

 

[tomalak301]

Given how forgiving Janeway seemed to be, and the fact that she did the same thing almost in the previous episode, I was surprised she tossed Paris in the brig for 30 days. It was a good episode but she wasn't very forgiving then.

 

[teya]

And then there was "Scorpion."

Yes, she's the captain. However, it's hardly professional to get your point across by batting your eyes, sniffing sadly and saying, "I guess I really am alone" simply because your first officer voices an opinion contrary to yours.

Ah, but I LOVE that about her--it's so HUMAN. A good leader knows that there is a personal element in leadership and will use whatever wiles necessary to ensure that her/his followers are behind her/him. And remember--that comment is made in the same episode where she says that she couldn't imagine a day without him, which is just as manipulative, IMHO. It was the "theme of the day."

The thing is I really believed her when she said that. That's one thing that makes the relationship so complex. She's his commanding officer yet they have a personal relationship such that she can't imagine a day without him.

BTW, while I can't picture Picard saying such a thing to any of his crew how many times have we seen Kirk use his personal friendship with Spock or McCoy to get them to follow him? Charisma is a tool that leaders like Kirk and Janeway use. It's not that they're being dishonest or manipulative - they're using their charm and the truth of their feelings to accomplish a specific goal.

I have watched every episode of every series--and more than once--and I guarantee that Kirk never used his charisma like that.

Janeway played a girl. She pouted. She cried. That is quite simply unprofessional.

Tears do not garner you respect in the workplace.

That is *absolutely* manipulative.

And what had Chakotay done? He'd said that he would follow her orders even though he disagreed with them.

In other words, she gave him the "oh, woe is me, poor Kathryn," because her XO was doing his job.

That is *not* leadership.

 

[kimc]

I have watched every episode of every series--and more than once--and I guarantee that Kirk never used his charisma like that.

Janeway wasn't exactly standing there with tears running down her face and and wearing a massive pout. The point I'm trying to make here is that both Kirk and Janeway used their natural charisma as part of their leadership style. They both had close friendships with members of their crew and often had to ask them to do things they wouldn't do for others.

 

[teya]

I have watched every episode of every series--and more than once--and I guarantee that Kirk never used his charisma like that.

Janeway wasn't exactly standing there with tears running down her face and and wearing a massive pout. The point I'm trying to make here is that both Kirk and Janeway used their natural charisma as part of their leadership style. They both had close friendships with members of their crew and often had to ask them to do things they wouldn't do for others.

And the point I'm making is that she wasn't *asking* Chakotay to do *anything*. He already said he'd follow her orders, even though he disagreed with them.

She was emotionally using him, manipulating him, engaging in a pity party.

I behaved the same way she was behaving when I was 14 and wanted my father to let me do something he thought was a bad idea. It was a bad move with my father and it was a bad move for Janeway.

 

[kes7]

Can I just say that I think this thread is great? I love real discussion like this. It makes me glad I stopped lurking.

Back to your regularly scheduled arguing ...

 

[AuntKate]

I have watched every episode of every series--and more than once--and I guarantee that Kirk never used his charisma like that.

Janeway wasn't exactly standing there with tears running down her face and and wearing a massive pout. The point I'm trying to make here is that both Kirk and Janeway used their natural charisma as part of their leadership style. They both had close friendships with members of their crew and often had to ask them to do things they wouldn't do for others.

And the point I'm making is that she wasn't *asking* Chakotay to do *anything*. He already said he'd follow her orders, even though he disagreed with them.

She was emotionally using him, manipulating him, engaging in a pity party.

I behaved the same way she was behaving when I was 14 and wanted my father to let me do something he thought was a bad idea. It was a bad move with my father and it was a bad move for Janeway.

You know, interpreting facial expression and mood is a chancy thing. To me, Janeway isn't saying she's alone in a pouty or manipulative way. As you point out, the argument is over. He is going to follow her orders, so, really, there is nothing left to say to him as her first officer.

To me, she is talking to him more as an equal, letting the formality of captain/first officer drop momentarily, because what she murmurs echoes what they had said to each other privately, as friends, earlier in the day. She has come up against the reality of her situation in stark relief--her crew can promise that she won't be alone, even in a spirit of friendship, but, ultimately, the captain IS alone. She bears the onus of command on her shoulders and has to do what she believes is the best, even if her crew (and her friend) disagree.

I think the tears in her eyes come from the sorrow she feels about what has happened between them more than pity for herself. Their attempt to bridge the chasm between captain and crew has failed. The comment and the tears in her eyes show us that she has decided against his advice at a high price and that she deeply regrets having to do it.

In the use of her personality and charisma, Janeway is very much like Kirk. I, too, have seen all of the TOS episodes and movies, and it is obvious that Kirk knowingly flirts and/or manipulates people whenever it serves his interest--and especially when he is confronted with a female. It is such a chiche, that, in "The Undiscovered Country," when he befriends a female on Rura Penthe and the woman kisses him, Bones comments, "What is it with you, Jim?" I still chuckle when I remember that scene.

 

[teya]

Janeway wasn't exactly standing there with tears running down her face and and wearing a massive pout. The point I'm trying to make here is that both Kirk and Janeway used their natural charisma as part of their leadership style. They both had close friendships with members of their crew and often had to ask them to do things they wouldn't do for others.

And the point I'm making is that she wasn't *asking* Chakotay to do *anything*. He already said he'd follow her orders, even though he disagreed with them.

She was emotionally using him, manipulating him, engaging in a pity party.

I behaved the same way she was behaving when I was 14 and wanted my father to let me do something he thought was a bad idea. It was a bad move with my father and it was a bad move for Janeway.

You know, interpreting facial expression and mood is a chancy thing.

For both of us, or just for me?

To me, Janeway isn't saying she's alone in a pouty or manipulative way. As you point out, the argument is over. He is going to follow her orders, so, really, there is nothing left to say to him as her first officer.

To me, she is talking to him more as an equal, letting the formality of captain/first officer drop momentarily, because what she murmurs echoes what they had said to each other privately, as friends, earlier in the day. She has come up against the reality of her situation in stark relief--her crew can promise that she won't be alone, even in a spirit of friendship, but, ultimately, the captain IS alone. She bears the onus of command on her shoulders and has to do what she believes is the best, even if her crew (and her friend) disagree.

I have tried watching this episode and seeing it this way, and I still see it as blatantly manipulative and overly emotional.

Not leadership in any stretch of the imagination to me.

I think the tears in her eyes come from the sorrow she feels about what has happened between them more than pity for herself. Their attempt to bridge the chasm between captain and crew has failed. The comment and the tears in her eyes show us that she has decided against his advice at a high price and that she deeply regrets having to do it.

If they were so close, she could say that. She doesn't. She pouts instead.

I, too, have seen all of the TOS episodes and movies, and it is obvious that Kirk knowingly flirts and/or manipulates people whenever it serves his interest--and especially when he is confronted with a female.

Kirk never manipulates as Janeway does here.

How would a subordinate of yours respond to such behavior?

I guarantee it would not go down well in my office.

 

[AuntKate]

I'm just saying that two people can see a scene and interepret it differently. I never said my way was right and yours wrong. You implied that I said that, but I didn't! As far as I'm concerned, we are all entitled to our interpretation of her motivation and feelings. I like mine, and you like yours. Everybody's happy.

To me, "Scorpion" is the episode where they realize how truly dangerous a romantic relationship could be between them. I think Janeway is deeply saddened by that realization. She has no reason whatsoever to try to manipulate him with her words or tears at that point--she already has his loyalty. I think her comment is sincere and from the heart. She is alone, no matter what Chakotay says, no matter how often he promises otherwise, and she is devestated by that truth.

But that's my take on the scene. To each his/her own, as always.

 

[teya]

To me, "Scorpion" is the episode where they realize how truly dangerous a romantic relationship could be between them.

I agree with you there. It is where I absolutely decided that J/C was a ship that shouldn't and wouldn't sail.

 

[AuntKate]

To me, "Scorpion" is the episode where they realize how truly dangerous a romantic relationship could be between them.

I agree with you there. It is where I absolutely decided that J/C was a ship that shouldn't and wouldn't sail.

Where we differ is that I think the J/C ship would sail about five minutes after reaching a Federation space dock.