O'Brien's rank
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DS9 was a run-down, second-hand space station. It was not a glamorous assignment, nor a high-profiled one originally, and the chief of operations position only warranted a noncom's billet at the time, IMO. Even after the discovery of the wormhole, Starfleet saw no need to replace O'Brien with a commissioned officer. His position as operations chief was sufficient as far as his authority goes.
A Senior Chief might be outranked by an Ensign, but any Ensign with an ounce of sense (I know, few and far between) is going to listen when the Senior Chief speaks.
I suspect your average Senior Chief ha sbeen in Starfleet for as long (if not longer) than your average Ensign has been alive.
I suspect your average Senior Chief ha sbeen in Starfleet for as long (if not longer) than your average Ensign has been alive.
Yes it's completely realistic if you understand the difference between enlisted and officer ranks.
It was established sometime(though not from the beginning) during TNG's run that O'Brien was an enlisted man, a chief petty officer.
In the military, there are master chief petty officers with twenty-five years of service, who are still TECHNICALLY outranked by a wet behind the ears ensign.
Yet, the master chief would still get a great deal of respect and be consulted, and his opinions respected more than the fresh from the academy ensign.
(Edited to say that Mysterion stole much of my thunder)
It was established sometime(though not from the beginning) during TNG's run that O'Brien was an enlisted man, a chief petty officer.
In the military, there are master chief petty officers with twenty-five years of service, who are still TECHNICALLY outranked by a wet behind the ears ensign.
Yet, the master chief would still get a great deal of respect and be consulted, and his opinions respected more than the fresh from the academy ensign.
(Edited to say that Mysterion stole much of my thunder)
^^^
Sorry 'bout that, Sonak.
Side-note: when I was in the Army, we had a Battalion Sergent Major (more or less equivilent to a Senior Chief) who loved nothing more than torturing brand new Second Lieutenants (more of less equivilent to an Ensign). Some 2LT would show up convinced of his absolute god-given military genius, and the SGM would methodically and completely disassemble his ego. Never raising his voice, or overtly disrespectful to the LT, but unrelenting. Always entertaining, and occasionally educational.
Sorry 'bout that, Sonak.
Side-note: when I was in the Army, we had a Battalion Sergent Major (more or less equivilent to a Senior Chief) who loved nothing more than torturing brand new Second Lieutenants (more of less equivilent to an Ensign). Some 2LT would show up convinced of his absolute god-given military genius, and the SGM would methodically and completely disassemble his ego. Never raising his voice, or overtly disrespectful to the LT, but unrelenting. Always entertaining, and occasionally educational.
TNG 'Family', when Worf's parents beam aboard, the father gushes about how good it is to meet another enlisted man when he talks to O'Brien.
By the time they finally decided on O'Brien's rank insignia, it was approximate to that of a Senior Chief in the U.S. Navy, suggesting a possible promotion since his days on the Enterprise...
I apologize for the nitpick, but a Battalion Sergeant Major would be equal to a Master Chief.
A Company First Sergeant (or even a Master Sergeant) would be equal to a Senior Chief.
Again, sorry for the nitpick, and yes, I know you said "more or less equivalent".
I apologize for the nitpick, but a Battalion Sergeant Major would be equal to a Master Chief.
A Company First Sergeant (or even a Master Sergeant) would be equal to a Senior Chief.
Again, sorry for the nitpick, and yes, I know you said "more or less equivalent".
Fair 'nuff. I'm just a lowly ex-ground-pounder, and those squid ranks get me a bit confused sometimes.
^^^
Sorry 'bout that, Sonak.
Side-note: when I was in the Army, we had a Battalion Sergent Major (more or less equivilent to a Senior Chief) who loved nothing more than torturing brand new Second Lieutenants (more of less equivilent to an Ensign). Some 2LT would show up convinced of his absolute god-given military genius, and the SGM would methodically and completely disassemble his ego. Never raising his voice, or overtly disrespectful to the LT, but unrelenting. Always entertaining, and occasionally educational.
Sounds like the set-up to the perfect Saavik Vs. O'Brien short story
That is, if O'Brien were a tad more vicious than that (the big ol' sweetie that he is).
^^^^
Did you mean, maybe, Bashir and O'Brien? That'd be good.
(Had an idea for a fanfic once where it would turn out that back when Bashir entered Starfleet, O'Brien was a training NCO at the Academy who terrorized Bashir to no end. Fast forward to the beginning of DSN: Bashir shows up, notices O'Brien and spends a lot of time hoping he won't be remembered. This idea came to me before we knew Bashir was actually a sooper-genius, and I don't think the timing works out for O'Brien as I think he would have already been on the Ent-D at theat point in time.)
Did you mean, maybe, Bashir and O'Brien? That'd be good.
(Had an idea for a fanfic once where it would turn out that back when Bashir entered Starfleet, O'Brien was a training NCO at the Academy who terrorized Bashir to no end. Fast forward to the beginning of DSN: Bashir shows up, notices O'Brien and spends a lot of time hoping he won't be remembered. This idea came to me before we knew Bashir was actually a sooper-genius, and I don't think the timing works out for O'Brien as I think he would have already been on the Ent-D at theat point in time.)
I would always say that experience outweighs rank (may not be how its done in the military but give Trek a little wiggle-room, its only a TV show ).
O'Brien was a Senior Chief Petty Officer, with a few decades of service under his belt. He always showed officers respect, but he was the one who had been there, done that and owned a whole cupboard of t-shirts. In return the officers showed him the same respect, so it would never really be an issue.
). O'Brien was a Senior Chief Petty Officer, with a few decades of service under his belt. He always showed officers respect, but he was the one who had been there, done that and owned a whole cupboard of t-shirts. In return the officers showed him the same respect, so it would never really be an issue.
I would, but Bashir lightened up in his ambitions and arrogance, whereas it stayed with Saavik throughout the movie (I also dislike the Robin Curtis Saavik because the arrogance was removed). Besides, we've seen Bashir and O'Brien develop into BFFs anyway.
I'm reminded of how Nog was close to panicking right before the big battle of Sacrifice of Angels started, but it was O'Brien who kept him calm, gave him advice, and ultimately helped Nog carry out his task on the bridge. Technically Nog outranked O'Brien, but O'Brien was indispensable from a mentoring standpoint for Nog to carry out his role during a major battle.
The writers walked a wobbly high wire with the status of the space station. The pilot episode already gave the place galactic importance, and might have warranted Sisko's immediate replacement with a Vice Admiral and O'Brien's replacement with an engineering Captain. But this was balanced by Starfleet's need to keep low profile with Bajor, whose political support was essential for allowing the UFP to exploit the wormhole (the alternative, using the route by force, was a decidedly un-UFP thing to do and would have caused even more problems) - and by Sisko's religious special status. And in the end, the station wasn't nearly as important as the wormhole itself, and there wasn't a specific need for a high-ranking gatekeeper when Starfleet ships could operate in Gamma without much help from DS9. O'Brien probably didn't have much to do; the one time he is shown participating in the maintenance of a visiting starship, in "Second Sight", it seems to be a hobby project he undertakes because he's otherwise idled.
The war might have changed things, but the writers cleverly made DS9 utterly insignificant in the strategic sense by removing the wormhole from the equation - first with the minefield thing and the mini-arc that took our heroes away for a moment, then with the Prophet-enforced blockade. The place did become a fleet anchorage, but it may well be that the 9th Fleet brought its own engineers and left O'Brien handle station affairs, which did not increase much in scope. Basically, the station might have been a net recipient of technological support, rather than a provider; a nice excuse for keeping the original low-ranking team aboard till the bitter end.
It's fortunate that despite all the insignia confusion in TNG, the character played by Colm Meaney there never gets explicitly addressed by any specific rank or rate, not until DS9 "Hippocratic Oath". We may choose to think that his single and later double pips in TNG didn't denote Ensign and Lieutenant, then, but rather were the single and later double stars in a CPO rank marker; perhaps they were black rather than silver, and our TV sets played tricks on us...
If so, we'd have to deal with an O'Brien who's a Senior CPO Specialist with one dark pip as per "Playing God", and then perhaps Master CPO with two pips (plus three chevrons, which were previously omitted for some reason only Starfleet costumers know) from "Hippocratic Oath" onwards.
Or then we might note that the later collar plate lacks the "rocker" that is important in denoting another rung on the USN rank ladder, and postulate that three chevrons plus one pip in Starfleet is the same as three chevrons, rocker and zero pips in USN use - that is, CPO. Then two pips in Starfleet would be Senior CPO and three pips would be Master CPO.
That still leaves some minor details, such as why O'Brien went from one to two pips in TNG but was back to one pip in later TNG ("Realm of Fear" onwards) and kept that when DS9 started. Perhaps rank promotions and demotions indeed can come and go for our poor enlisted Starfleet personnel, making Keiko's concern in "A Man Alone" literally true: refusing the assignment might have cost O'Brien his remaining pip!
Timo Saloniemi
The war might have changed things, but the writers cleverly made DS9 utterly insignificant in the strategic sense by removing the wormhole from the equation - first with the minefield thing and the mini-arc that took our heroes away for a moment, then with the Prophet-enforced blockade. The place did become a fleet anchorage, but it may well be that the 9th Fleet brought its own engineers and left O'Brien handle station affairs, which did not increase much in scope. Basically, the station might have been a net recipient of technological support, rather than a provider; a nice excuse for keeping the original low-ranking team aboard till the bitter end.
In "A Man Alone", the O'Briens explicitly discuss a promotion. Curiously, they say that Miles has received one, but would have to give it up if he transferred elsewhere. So probably it isn't a promotion in rank, but only in position - from one of the many Transporter Chiefs of a starship to the one and only Chief of Operations on a Fleet installation.
It's fortunate that despite all the insignia confusion in TNG, the character played by Colm Meaney there never gets explicitly addressed by any specific rank or rate, not until DS9 "Hippocratic Oath". We may choose to think that his single and later double pips in TNG didn't denote Ensign and Lieutenant, then, but rather were the single and later double stars in a CPO rank marker; perhaps they were black rather than silver, and our TV sets played tricks on us...
If so, we'd have to deal with an O'Brien who's a Senior CPO Specialist with one dark pip as per "Playing God", and then perhaps Master CPO with two pips (plus three chevrons, which were previously omitted for some reason only Starfleet costumers know) from "Hippocratic Oath" onwards.
Or then we might note that the later collar plate lacks the "rocker" that is important in denoting another rung on the USN rank ladder, and postulate that three chevrons plus one pip in Starfleet is the same as three chevrons, rocker and zero pips in USN use - that is, CPO. Then two pips in Starfleet would be Senior CPO and three pips would be Master CPO.
That still leaves some minor details, such as why O'Brien went from one to two pips in TNG but was back to one pip in later TNG ("Realm of Fear" onwards) and kept that when DS9 started. Perhaps rank promotions and demotions indeed can come and go for our poor enlisted Starfleet personnel, making Keiko's concern in "A Man Alone" literally true: refusing the assignment might have cost O'Brien his remaining pip!
Timo Saloniemi
In TNG 'Disaster', Ensign Ro asked "Lieutenant" O'Brien if he was in command as the senior officer present on the bridge, but he had to remind the ensign that they were outranked by Lieutenant Commander Troi.
So, yeah, it actually did come up at least once (I think again TNG 'Realm of Fear', but I'm not sure) before DS9 established O'Brien as a senior non-comm.
Glad someone brought this up I'm big DS9 fan and only recently catching up on TNG. Up to series 4 now, and in last ep I watched (The Wounded?), think it's mentioned that O'Brien was tactical officer on Rutledge. I thought: wtf? 
I thought O'Brien was enlisted/eng man through and through and can buy as character. How is he suddenly tac officer? And why is this never mentioned in DS9? Plus, he accepts he's wrong about Cardassians, then suddenly once back on DS9 he's got a big chip on shoulder about Cardassians. Grrrrr....those inconsistencies drive me nuts.
I'm big DS9 fan and only recently catching up on TNG. Up to series 4 now, and in last ep I watched (The Wounded?), think it's mentioned that O'Brien was tactical officer on Rutledge. I thought: wtf? I thought O'Brien was enlisted/eng man through and through and can buy as character. How is he suddenly tac officer? And why is this never mentioned in DS9? Plus, he accepts he's wrong about Cardassians, then suddenly once back on DS9 he's got a big chip on shoulder about Cardassians. Grrrrr....those inconsistencies drive me nuts.
Re: O'Brien as a Tactical Officer on the Rutledge.
Not necessarily an inconsistency. How big was the Rutledge? We don't know, but it may have been a reletively small ship. Perhaps small enough that the position of "Tactical Officer" was filled by an NCO. Or...the assigned (commissioned) Tactical Officer had been killed, and O'Brien got slotted into the position because he was handy (ship out on the front lines, replacements hard to come by, etc.) despite his being an NCO. Third possibility: O'Brien received a temporary "battlefield commission" during the war, and reverted back to his actual enlisted rank after the war was over (this sort of thing actually happened in the US military during and after WW2).
Not necessarily an inconsistency. How big was the Rutledge? We don't know, but it may have been a reletively small ship. Perhaps small enough that the position of "Tactical Officer" was filled by an NCO. Or...the assigned (commissioned) Tactical Officer had been killed, and O'Brien got slotted into the position because he was handy (ship out on the front lines, replacements hard to come by, etc.) despite his being an NCO. Third possibility: O'Brien received a temporary "battlefield commission" during the war, and reverted back to his actual enlisted rank after the war was over (this sort of thing actually happened in the US military during and after WW2).
I totally agree with your rationale. But it was less how O'Brien got to be Tactical Officer rather than someone with eng background suddenly switching to tactical. Anyway, according to interweb, Rutledge was 'maybe' New Orleans class. Which isn't small. But let's not split hairs. I think your explanation sound, but I reckon this is another case where TNG lot dropped the ball for dramatic purposes
Or maybe the writers just sucked when it same to military rank structure 
The one thing trek really needed was a military advisor for stuff like this. Honestly, O'Brains position was a bit odd. There should have been officer above him. If anything, obrian should have been a warrant officer (the us military kind)
The one thing trek really needed was a military advisor for stuff like this. Honestly, O'Brains position was a bit odd. There should have been officer above him. If anything, obrian should have been a warrant officer (the us military kind)
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