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O'Brien's rank

I totally agree with your rationale. But it was less how O'Brien got to be Tactical Officer rather than someone with eng background suddenly switching to tactical. Anyway, according to interweb, Rutledge was 'maybe' New Orleans class. Which isn't small. But let's not split hairs. I think your explanation sound, but I reckon this is another case where TNG lot dropped the ball for dramatic purposes :)

Well, okay, let's see...in ST the Tactical Officer seems to deal a lot more with simply firing various weapons than with any actual tactics. To me, this seems like it's pretty-much an expansion of the engineering discipline, in that you're just dealing with the mechanics of the situation, reallly. And, it seems to me, a tactician should be wearing command red rather than support services yellow. (And, yes, I do remember O'Brien was wearing red in the first episode of TNG.)

But, you're probably dead-on that it's just a matter of TNG having dropped the ball.
 
I totally agree with your rationale. But it was less how O'Brien got to be Tactical Officer rather than someone with eng background suddenly switching to tactical. Anyway, according to interweb, Rutledge was 'maybe' New Orleans class. Which isn't small. But let's not split hairs. I think your explanation sound, but I reckon this is another case where TNG lot dropped the ball for dramatic purposes :)

Well, okay, let's see...in ST the Tactical Officer seems to deal a lot more with simply firing various weapons than with any actual tactics. To me, this seems like it's pretty-much an expansion of the engineering discipline, in that you're just dealing with the mechanics of the situation, reallly. And, it seems to me, a tactician should be wearing command red rather than support services yellow. (And, yes, I do remember O'Brien was wearing red in the first episode of TNG.)

But, you're probably dead-on that it's just a matter of TNG having dropped the ball.

But now your explanation - expansion of engineering discipline - is making more sense to me :lol: Though tbf we never saw Worf exhibit any eng practicalities, nor Geordi vice versa. But I doff my cap anyway :techman:
 
Or maybe the writers just sucked when it same to military rank structure :p

The one thing trek really needed was a military advisor for stuff like this. Honestly, O'Brains position was a bit odd. There should have been officer above him. If anything, obrian should have been a warrant officer (the us military kind)

Totally agree :techman: Think one reason I liked Moore episodes (and nuBSG) was that Moore (I think?) had some sort of military background so kinda got that mood/structure better.
 
The one thing I wonder about with O'Briens rank is that although he is clearly identified as Chief of Sation Operations and as Defiants Chief Engineer but the Operations and Engineering department on the Station must have at least 100 or more Starfleet and Bajoran crewman. Shouldn't a department this size require an officer at least at the rank of Lieutenant to run and O'Brien could be there as 2nd in command?
 
But, you're probably dead-on that it's just a matter of TNG having dropped the ball.

I think it's more the case of a simple background recurring character (initially little more than an extra), eventually getting more to do. As the character developed, some things established earlier are superseded.

The Wounded was his first big episode, but it could have been anyone. There's no pressing reason to give the role to O'Brien.
 
The whole thing could have been fixed very easily by giving OBrien a "mustang" promotion to an officer rank. He could have grumbled about it, but Sisko could have let him know he would otherwise be transferred to some hell-hole posting if he didn't accept it.
 
The one thing I wonder about with O'Briens rank is that although he is clearly identified as Chief of Sation Operations and as Defiants Chief Engineer but the Operations and Engineering department on the Station must have at least 100 or more Starfleet and Bajoran crewman. Shouldn't a department this size require an officer at least at the rank of Lieutenant to run and O'Brien could be there as 2nd in command?
Not necessarily, if O'Brien was the highest ranking member of the station's operations department as a noncom.

We're so used to everyone in Starfleet being depicted as an officer, when enlisted personnel should really comprise the bulk of Starfleet crews, IMO...
 
The one thing I wonder about with O'Briens rank is that although he is clearly identified as Chief of Sation Operations and as Defiants Chief Engineer but the Operations and Engineering department on the Station must have at least 100 or more Starfleet and Bajoran crewman. Shouldn't a department this size require an officer at least at the rank of Lieutenant to run and O'Brien could be there as 2nd in command?

You are absolutely correct. This is just a mater of the writers not understanding the rank system.


The one thing I wonder about with O'Briens rank is that although he is clearly identified as Chief of Sation Operations and as Defiants Chief Engineer but the Operations and Engineering department on the Station must have at least 100 or more Starfleet and Bajoran crewman. Shouldn't a department this size require an officer at least at the rank of Lieutenant to run and O'Brien could be there as 2nd in command?
Not necessarily, if O'Brien was the highest ranking member of the station's operations department as a noncom.

We're so used to everyone in Starfleet being depicted as an officer, when enlisted personnel should really comprise the bulk of Starfleet crews, IMO...
you are correct BUT NCOs form something called the NCO support channel while officers form the chain of command. An officer should have been in charge of a department as large as engineering with a senior NCo supporting him/her. The flip side is that all those maintenance crews/security teams/etc we see running around should have been composed of enlisted and not the officers we see.
 
^The standard answer to all that is, it's a fictional space service, not the navy. What we've got on screen is how it works, it's just a matter of interpretation.
 
The one thing I wonder about with O'Briens rank is that although he is clearly identified as Chief of Sation Operations and as Defiants Chief Engineer but the Operations and Engineering department on the Station must have at least 100 or more Starfleet and Bajoran crewman. Shouldn't a department this size require an officer at least at the rank of Lieutenant to run and O'Brien could be there as 2nd in command?

You are absolutely correct. This is just a mater of the writers not understanding the rank system.


The one thing I wonder about with O'Briens rank is that although he is clearly identified as Chief of Sation Operations and as Defiants Chief Engineer but the Operations and Engineering department on the Station must have at least 100 or more Starfleet and Bajoran crewman. Shouldn't a department this size require an officer at least at the rank of Lieutenant to run and O'Brien could be there as 2nd in command?
Not necessarily, if O'Brien was the highest ranking member of the station's operations department as a noncom.

We're so used to everyone in Starfleet being depicted as an officer, when enlisted personnel should really comprise the bulk of Starfleet crews, IMO...
you are correct BUT NCOs form something called the NCO support channel while officers form the chain of command. An officer should have been in charge of a department as large as engineering with a senior NCo supporting him/her. The flip side is that all those maintenance crews/security teams/etc we see running around should have been composed of enlisted and not the officers we see.
Don't the majority of those crews feature personnel without any kind of rank insignia? Perhaps the lack of a rank insignia represents the "crewman" grade, in which O'Brien would still be their superior. But as far as how large DS9's ops department is, we really don't know...
 
O'Brien probably didn't have much to do
Sorry, have you SEEN DS9 S1? :p

[Hell, even as late as S6, the station starts breaking down the moment O'Brien is conscripted by Starfleet Intelligence...]
 
The bit with starship hobby projects in "Second Sight" was S2, tho. ;)

O'Brien was tactical officer on Rutledge. I thought: wtf?

DS9 "Paradise" goes to some length in explaining O'Brien's involvement in the first Setlik III incident. Combining this with what we learn from "The Wounded", the story seems to cater for what we get logically enough.

In 2347, Cardassians conduct "deniable" raids with small contingents of their militia rather than with actual military force. One hits the Setlik III colony, and the Rutledge arrives too late to save much of the day. A set of landing parties beams down, probably including many top officers (as the skipper himself is personally involved there, his family being among the colonists), and verifiably including squads of troopers including the young O'Brien. In a firefight to protect the locals, O'Brien makes his first kill - accidentally, using a phaser set to kill by a civilian.

The militia then (earlier on?) corners some of the Rutledge personnel. Their survival depends on the repairing of a field transporter, and trooper O'Brien manages this feat just in time to save at least some of the personnel.

It is in the aftermath of these events that O'Brien is said to have become the Tactical Officer. Not an improbable prospect at all: top officers beaming down, using rules of engagement calling for stun against a ruthless enemy, getting cornered, probably with heavy loss of life. When the heroic O'Brien returns to the ship, he may find the bridge thinly manned; his skipper may be among the people who owe their lives to him. And the location of it all is now considered "the Cardassian front", with the starship possibly isolated from crew rotation opportunities for some time.

O'Brien would at this point start wearing a gold uniform for the first time; he would probably have set his goals at becoming an engineer already, though, what with

a) him apparently not liking soldiering much if it involves killing
b) him already having a hobby background in engineering ("All Good Things..")
c) him having just saved lives through faking his way through an engineering task.

So he wouldn't rot at the Tactical position for long if he had any say about it.

The funny thing is, he'd apparently be back at Setlik III at some later timepoint, for an adventure he describes in "Empok Nor": he's fighting a surface battle there again, but this time against large formations of regular Cardassian military, and without mention of the Rutledge. This may be the same incident where he and his Rutledge buddy Boone fought as per "Tribunal" - an incident that apparently took place in 2362 rather than 2347, and probably didn't actually involve the starship because O'Brien is initially unsure whether Boone was present at that "Second Setlik" incident (something that would be natural if the two were simply buddies from the distant past when the shared a starship but not that close buddies at the time of the incident any more).

At "Second Setlik", O'Brien seems to be back to the old business of fighting as an infantryman. He even explicitly says in "Empok Nor" that he was a soldier back then. But he's been an engineer and transporter specialist since 2347, as per "Realm of Fear"... Perhaps he was both for a while (2347-62), and then gave up one profession in favor of the other (2362 and joining the E-D crew)? It's interesting enough that Meaney's character still serves as a security goon in an early TNG episode, "Lonely Among Us".

Timo Saloniemi
 
Non-coms command, and often can lead departments in a facility. The real difference is that they have no commission, but in terms of respect, knowledge, experience, etc. a non-com is often seen as equal to any officer.

Look at it this way, even though Nog outranked Chief O'Brien by virtue of being an officer, Nog still looked up to Chief O'Brien for his engineering expertise, as well as combat/battle experience. I think if anything, they should have made Chief O'Brien an officer in the later seasons. In real life, non-coms can join officer training programmes and get a commission. Maybe in the Dominion War, since the Federation had a manpower shortage, make Miles a Lt. Cmdr or even a Commander.
 
Non-coms command, and often can lead departments in a facility. The real difference is that they have no commission, but in terms of respect, knowledge, experience, etc. a non-com is often seen as equal to any officer.

Look at it this way, even though Nog outranked Chief O'Brien by virtue of being an officer, Nog still looked up to Chief O'Brien for his engineering expertise, as well as combat/battle experience. I think if anything, they should have made Chief O'Brien an officer in the later seasons. In real life, non-coms can join officer training programmes and get a commission. Maybe in the Dominion War, since the Federation had a manpower shortage, make Miles a Lt. Cmdr or even a Commander.

Nog was an engineer right? So he would have been on O'Brien's staff anyway.
 
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