Obey all local laws?

[exodus]

Nobody respected Maquis territory because the Maquis were spontaneously claiming that Cardassian and Federation territory was their own. Their species didn't originate there, and instead of trying to be diplomatic about it they engaged in terrorism to try to get what they wanted.

Thanks, I'm glad you agree that a group with no representation doesn't dictate law to the military or the governments there of.

That is why Janeway could cross Krenium space.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not seeing the connection...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Nobody respected Maquis territory because the Maquis were spontaneously claiming that Cardassian and Federation territory was their own. Their species didn't originate there, and instead of trying to be diplomatic about it they engaged in terrorism to try to get what they wanted.

Granted it's kind of like when Americans got all high-and-mighty and declared that the land they'd been granted by the British was suddenly their own...

Dude. Picard, Sisko and all the Cardassian ships couldn't go into the Demilitarize Zone because they were abiding with a treaty they both chose to honour. Later on DS9, Kira talked about "Maquis Wolrds" and even got the Cardassians to trade settlements with the Maquis after a few planets were surgically poisoned, and Sisko in disguise walked into a Maquis Stronghold on a Maquis planet to meet a contact who would get him some Eddington.

There were human and Cardassian colonies on either side of the Demilitarized Zone which were attacking each other after the border shifted with the treaty of 2369 who were being defended by terrorists who had to hide from the Federation and Cardassian policemen trying to keep the peace.

Nobody respected Maquis territory because the Maquis were spontaneously claiming that Cardassian and Federation territory was their own. Their species didn't originate there, and instead of trying to be diplomatic about it they engaged in terrorism to try to get what they wanted.

Thanks, I'm glad you agree that a group with no representation doesn't dictate law to the military or the governments there of.

That is why Janeway could cross Krenium space.

The Prime Directive is about giving young races without significant representation, proxy benefit of the doubt representation equal to the older races. Aborigines in grass skirts hunting animals with spears and clubs... The actual Krenim in each universe we observed in the Year of Hell was being terrorised by Annorax. The way annorax describe the nature of ome of the jrenim Imperium's, there's no doubt that there a civilization on par with the Federation.

So Exodus, anyone who clearly defines their borders and closes those boarders to transient drifter panhandlers is a terrorist?

I would never be so insulting as to call the lost missing POW*MIA soldiers transient drifter panhandlers.

What about Ransom's bunch in the Equinox after they ran out of food and dilithium when they started killing people and tossing them into their engines intermix chamber?

There but for the grace of god...

I live in a small dinky little country that refuses to allow nuclear vessels into their waters which makes the US and a couple other countries truly apeshit, and if there was some emergency were a nuclear submarine had to come into our waters it would be an act of war because we would be saying fuck off to deaf ears, and it's not nice to be ignored, not that we would murder the crew and strip the boat for parts, but..

Which would be laws and rules made by your government, right? The military only acknowledges orders and rights of law from official government ambassadors.

I'm pretty sure that most soldiers don't want to start wars with thier friends if they can help it. But you wouldn't mind Libyan military ships cruising into an American port without permission?

• The Swarm gave Janeway one warning. She knew the consequences of ignoring that warning. And she went into their space anyway. Did she ignore that warning because they didn't own the space they controlled, or because she trusted her engineer to keep her ship invisible?

Change "Swarm" to "Maquis".

Did anybody respect the rights of the Maquis when they asked to stay out of their territory? The Federation nor the Cardassian governments acknowledged their claims to anything. Why, because the Maquis like the Swarm are nothing but a gang. Since when does a gang dictate law to the military? The Swarm is a gang of thugs, when do thugs dictate rights of jurisdiction to the military? The military like Starship captains only answer to official government liaisons. Isn't that standard protocol?

Janeway is not a bully nor an idiot.
She did just as she is expected and trained to do under guidelines of military protocol.

The writer(s) were perhaps snipping at Janeway here to say that they were not completely happy wth the direction the producers where directing them in.

EMH: I've recently begun a thorough study of opera. I find it quite satisfying, but I am having difficulty finding a holographic partner for the role of Mimi. All the soprani seem to have the most irritating personalities. These women are arrogant, superior, condescending. I can't imagine anyone behaving that way.

No one on Voyager (I'm rewatching the episode right now) seems to be in disagreement that the swarm owned the space where they lived...

NEELIX: If these people are who I think they are, I can tell you this is very bad news. I've never actually encountered them but from what I've heard I'm glad I didn't. Most ships that enter their space are never heard from again. Some have returned with everyone on board dead. They're a complete mystery. No one knows their name, how many of them there are, what the culture is like. Just that they really don't want people violating their territory.

KIM: If this is any indication of their borders, it's a huge area of space, hundreds of sectors. If we were to go around it, it would take months.

TUVOK: If we are not to go around their space the only available option is to go through it.

KIM: Tom and B'Elanna hit a sensor net as they crossed the border. We have to figure we'll run into it when we try to cross. But there are ways around sensor nets.

Gods, when the Vulcan is the voice of reason...

TUVOK: Would it affect your decision if I pointed out that encroaching on the territory of an alien species is prohibited by starfleet regulations?

And so on and so on.

Your "terrorist gang no mansland" argument is a fallacy not supported by the script. Janeway knew that she was breaking the rules, the law, her own as well as the Swarms but Kathryn simply didn't care.

 

[exodus]

What about Ransom's bunch in the Equinox after they ran out of food and dilithium when they started killing people and tossing them into their engines intermix chamber?

What about them?

I'm pretty sure that most soldiers don't want to start wars with thier friends if they can help it.

If ordered too they will.

But you wouldn't mind Libyan military ships cruising into an American port without permission?

Doesn't the government have laws already in place where this isn't allowed? Doesn't the military already have protocol in place if that ever were to happen?


As too the voice of reason:
TUVOK: "Would it affect your decision if I pointed out that encroaching on the territory of an alien species is prohibited by starfleet regulations?"

As her chief of security, isn't he also giving her a green light?
TUVOK: "If we are not to go around their space the only available option is to go through it. "

Your "terrorist gang no mansland" argument is a fallacy not supported by the script.

I see it as supported when it came to the Maquis but forgotten when applied to the Swarm.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What about Ransom's bunch in the Equinox after they ran out of food and dilithium when they started killing people and tossing them into their engines intermix chamber?

What about them?

Would you call them transient drifter panhandlers?

I'm pretty sure that most soldiers don't want to start wars with their friends if they can help it.

If ordered too they will.

But you wouldn't mind Libyan military ships cruising into an American port without permission?

Doesn't the government have laws already in place where this isn't allowed? Doesn't the military already have protocol in place if that ever were to happen?

Yes they do, which was exactly the point I was making, all countries have rules about who they let in, and so does the Swarm. You do realize that the "Swarm" as we saw it, probably isn't the entire population or navy of this species, but perhaps just one of thousands of small fleets in the boarder guard that keeps riff raff out of their space and away from their civilian traffic and population centres, otherwise kathryn committed Genocide, and if their population was so tiny relegated to one last swarm it's no wonder they didn't want to appear weak or welcome themselves up to some new threat that was was going to kill them off completely.

As too the voice of reason:
TUVOK: "Would it affect your decision if I pointed out that encroaching on the territory of an alien species is prohibited by starfleet regulations?"

As her chief of security, isn't he also giving her a green light?
TUVOK: "If we are not to go around their space the only available option is to go through it. "

He thought he was posturing two impossible situations concluding a logical impass, which is why he was amazed when kathryn said (in spirit) "Fuck it, then we''ll go through them". You got our quotes back to front. My quote where he calls her a criminal sonofabitch is his reply to her response of his damned if we do damned if we don't conundrum you thought would trump what I said he said but you're swimming against the current

Your "terrorist gang no mansland" argument is a fallacy not supported by the script.

I see it as supported when it came to the Maquis but forgotten when applied to the Swarm.

The Maquis was a strictly internal, domestic and mostly human matter. George Bush (in relation to 911) said that anyone who harbours his enemies is his enemy and would be treated accordingly, which is no difference from what the Cardassians said to the Federation about the Maquis attacking Caradassia and then running back across the Federation boarder to hide. If the Federation didn't hunt the Maquis in Federation Space, then the Cardassians would (ie the Invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. It's not odd how predictable the broad strokes of future history are, because they're just mostly identical to the strokes of the past.).

The swarm on the other hand were just killing any one who crossed their boarders TWICE. Neelix lived 2000 light years away and he knew all about their cheery customs and excise practises.