Obey all local laws?

[Rom's Sehlat]

Apparently Janeway wants to obey the local laws, but does she ever break them in order to keep people alive?

Like when Be'lanna was found guilty of thinking violent thoughts (duh, she's a Klingon!) she was sentenced to something-or-another resequencing. Janeway was set to let that happen.

Of lesser importance was when Paris had to take piloting lessons. Janeway didn't mind complying with that law; and it didn't seem a big deal. Paris can pass any piloting test this side of Andromeda [Galaxy].

 

[froot]

^ I was always bothered by the fact that she was going to allow those guys to mess with B'Elanna's head. I actually felt like that was out of character - specifically, her one-off line to Tom in the corridor. She'll play nice... until you screw with her people. The only way her ship and crew is going down is if she kills them all herself, dammit. I just don't believe she would have let that happen to B'Elanna. Ever.

She flat-out broke alien laws to save her brood in "Resistance," "The Chute," "The Raven," and "Counterpoint," took some morally fuzzy options to protect (or bring back) her own in "Tuvix" and "Nothing Human," and... I guess pissed off the 8472 by siding with the Borg to shorten their journey in (among other things) in "Scorpion." But the 8472 were already pissed off at the entire galaxy anyway, so that one might not count...

Some people love to paint her as a huge law-breaking asshat, but she'd generally play nice as long as folks didn't try to hurt her people. Or take her ship or something. She always took that a bit personal. There were a lot of cases where they'd leave a place better off than they found it. And they did like to tiptoe around in alien backyards - but, again, usually with diplomacy first.

Driving lessons are pretty innocuous.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Janeway obeys local laws in the same way Kirk did.

 

[exodus]

She flat-out broke alien laws to save her brood in "Resistance," "The Chute," "The Raven," and "Counterpoint,"

Weren't all those governments corrupt and punishing & killing innocent people? All of them refused "innocent until proven guilty" and/or dismissed any evidence given that proved innocence.

Janeway followed the laws in "Random Thoughts" because the government wasn't corrupt.
They allowed Tuvok & Janeway time to provide a case to argue for Be'Lanna's freedom.

Like when Be'lanna was found guilty of thinking violent thoughts (duh, she's a Klingon!)

That's not from being Klingon, it's from being abandon by her father as a child.
"Lineage" shows Be'Lanna was passive as a child. If her anger was from being Klingon she would have looked forward to fighting all those that teased her.

 

[Jaro Stun]

additionally the question is:
- whether it would have any negative impact on B'Elanna's health (mental or physical)
-whether the effects (if any) would be reversible by the Doctor.

Maybe the procedure was of almost no impact at all, thus there was no reason not to play nice.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

That was one of my least favorite episodes of Voyager. I can't stand the version of Janeway that would contemplate letting that happen. But I don't think she's generally willing to toss aside her crew.

 

[DonIago]

Hm. What about rampaging through aliens' space in "The Swarm" and "Year of Hell"?

 

[exodus]

Hm. What about rampaging through aliens' space in "The Swarm" and "Year of Hell"?

What law was broken?
The Swarm have no government and therefore no true rightful claim to that space. They only control it through fear and terrorist acts. Janeway broke no laws going through it.

"YOH" explained that space wasn't owned by the Krenium but rather the Zhal. The Zhal, the true ruling government of that space allowed Janeway & Voyager free passage.

 

[DonIago]

What about once the Zhal ceased to exist and Janeway had no memory of them?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hm. What about rampaging through aliens' space in "The Swarm" and "Year of Hell"?

What law was broken?
The Swarm have no government and therefore no true rightful claim to that space. They only control it through fear and terrorist acts. Janeway broke no laws going through it.

And that's why whitey doesn't have to give America back to the Indians, or why slavery was so palatable by truly civilized people till recently.

The federation won't terraform worlds with any germ of life that might grow into a sentient being sometime in the next 100 million years, but you all say that they draw the line at forwarding entitlement and civil rights to assholes, savages and thugs. %99 of life in the universe are assholes, savages and thugs. Portal offered to exterminate the Ferengi for Riker because they were a savage childrace, but Riker asked the sentry not to, because then they wouldn't learn anything and grow up... Speaking of Savage Childraces what right does man have to not hop into a billion billion gas chambers because an infinitely superior life form dictates that it is good?

Seriously a tachyon detection grid surrounding the extent of their space which it would take Voyager 14 months to circumnavigate

They were organized and they had advanced tech, and they could defend themselves with enough sheer violence that even Talaxians knew to stay the hell out of their space a thousand light years off in the distance.

The Prime Directive is there to protect everyone from the arrogance of Starfleet Captains who think that they know best.

"YOH" explained that space wasn't owned by the Krenium but rather the Zhal. The Zhal, the true ruling government of that space allowed Janeway & Voyager free passage.

Different universes, not quite, but as good as. It's why Mirror-Jennifer Sisko's va-ja-ja hadn't been wrecked by childbirth but Jake Sisko still wanted to suckle up to her emotionally.

 

[exodus]

What about once the Zhal ceased to exist and Janeway had no memory of them?

You saw the ep., Astrometrix confirmed the fact that the space they were in didn't belong to the Krenium.

 

[DonIago]

After the Krenim wiped the Zhal from existence Voyager was in Krenim space and possibly had been for quite some time. As Voyager did not have temporal shielding at that time they would have no memory of the Zhal; consequently from their perspective they were in Krenim territory, even if they were just at the border at that point (unlikely given the massive expansion in Krenim territory caused by that incursion).

For Voyager to be in Krenim territory after the change in timelines, Janeway must have chosen to enter it.

As for the idea that it's okay to violate a nation's territory as long as they're "bad" to begin with...I don't even know where to begin pointing out the problems with that argument.

 

[exodus]

Hm. What about rampaging through aliens' space in "The Swarm" and "Year of Hell"?

What law was broken?
The Swarm have no government and therefore no true rightful claim to that space. They only control it through fear and terrorist acts. Janeway broke no laws going through it.

And that's why whitey doesn't have to give America back to the Indians, or why slavery was so palatable by truly civilized people till recently.

The federation won't terraform worlds with any germ of life that might grow into a sentient being sometime in the next 100 million years, but you all say that they draw the line at forwarding entitlement and civil rights to assholes, savages and thugs. %99 of life in the universe are assholes, savages and thugs. Portal offered to exterminate the Ferengi for Riker because they were a savage childrace, but Riker asked the sentry not to, because then they wouldn't learn anything and grow up... Speaking of Savage Childraces what right does man have to not hop into a billion billion gas chambers because an infinitely superior life form dictates that it is good?

Seriously a tachyon detection grid surrounding the extent of their space which it would take Voyager 14 months to circumnavigate

They were organized and they had advanced tech, and they could defend themselves with enough sheer violence that even Talaxians knew to stay the hell out of their space a thousand light years off in the distance.

Romulan, Klingons & Cardassans all have established forms of government. The Federation isn't allowed to cross their boarders without their permission. The Swarm are equal to the Maquis, in the fact they're a militant organization not recognized by any government. So any space they occupy they still have no rightful claim too.

 

[exodus]

After the Krenim wiped the Zhal from existence Voyager was in Krenim space and possibly had been for quite some time. As Voyager did not have temporal shielding at that time they would have no memory of the Zhal; consequently from their perspective they were in Krenim territory, even if they were just at the border at that point (unlikely given the massive expansion in Krenim territory caused by that incursion).

For Voyager to be in Krenim territory after the change in timelines, Janeway must have chosen to enter it.

.

When did Annorax go from being a scientist and captain of the time ship to president of the Krenium?
Didn't Annorax say he was a funded by his government to build a weapon to fight their enemy?
Yet, once he lost his wife due to the machine, he upsurped power from the government and took over.
What he was doing by erasing all other life forms was not the plan of the Krenium government.
Annorax doesn't represent the Krenium government at all.

As for the idea that it's okay to violate a nation's territory as long as they're "bad" to begin with...I don't even know where to begin pointing out the problems with that argument.

I don't either but that's not the arguement being made.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure what Annorax has to do with it...the question doesn't concern Annorax, it concerns Krenim territory.

 

[exodus]

I'm not sure what Annorax has to do with it...the question doesn't concern Annorax, it concerns Krenim territory.

......and how local law pertains too it.

If Annorax isn't a factor:
Who is in charge and created the local laws of Krenium terrirtory, especially if the population and time period within Krenium space is in a constant state of flux?

 

[DonIago]

Well, if we trust that Annorax was telling the truth, then before he started mucking about with other civilizations Krenim space was pretty vast, I believe only a little larger than it was after the Zahl were eliminated. Doesn't Oberist say that Krenim territory after the Zahl incident is at 90%+ of its former area?

Of course, to everyone not on the timeship there's no flux at all...the Krenim borders are what they are until the timeship acts again. And then they were always wherever they end up.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Anorax is the equivalent of a 200 year old southern general still making strikes against the north for the south in the US Civil war. After the dissolution of his own Krennim Imperium he lost all political power and backing. To wit it is he who is the terrorist since Annorax is a lone soldier carrying out a long lost war.

However, he is also a "God" and the universe is his pet he can clip and shave to make look pretty because no one else has the force of will to tell him to fuck off or even notice that he is desexing and giving eyedrops to the cows of almost 1/4 a quadrant, until Janeway lets the cat out of the bag on his shenanigans.

"Ignore the man behind the curtain!"

So Exodus, anyone who clearly defines their borders and closes those boarders to transient drifter panhandlers is a terrorist? how isn't that every country on the planet? The anal cavity search to get in and out of America is almost as dissettling as being around that many people in cheesy socks, or do you think that you can ignore customs completely in North Korea if you're well armed or just have "right" on your side?

I live in a small dinky little country that refuses to allow nuclear vessels into their waters which makes the US and a couple other countries truly apeshit, and if there was some emergency were a nuclear submarine had to come into our waters it would be an act of war because we would be saying fuck off to deaf ears, and it's not nice to be ignored, not that we would murder the crew and strip the boat for parts, but... Any said country accidentally "invading" us because they have a mechanical malfunction would be eating humble pie diplomatically, and face it if America will pay Iran for Hostages with advanced weapons, if you pay Castro (in gold annually) for the privilege of leasing Guantanamo bay, it's pretty shitty if we don't expect a little folding for the inconvenience of housing and feeding a hundred people while they're waiting to be airlifted out?

Do it twice, or on purpose and we'll sink the fucking boat.

Sneaking a nuclear reactor into our sovereign territory is no different really than when Drug smugglers bring in unlicensed weapons and sex slaves.

It's in poor taste.

The Swarm gave Janeway one warning. She knew the consequences of ignoring that warning. And she went into their space anyway. Did she ignore that warning because they didn't own the space they controlled, or because she trusted her engineer to keep her ship invisible?

Somewhat criminal behaviour.

Yes Hansel deserved to be eaten for eating the witches house, you don't eat other peoples houses,and don't get me started on Goldilocks thrashing and pillaging those poor bears house but Janeway is a thug who thought she could fall on the swarms mercy, or slaughter enough of them who got in her way that she could be long gone before they mounted any real opposition to Voyagers fire power. She created a kill or be killed situation because she thought she could save a few minutes sneaking through the lion enclosure at the zoo to get the the candy floss stand.

(In Swarm) Janeway is a bully and an idiot.

 

[exodus]

So Exodus, anyone who clearly defines their borders and closes those boarders to transient drifter panhandlers is a terrorist?

I would never be so insulting as to call the lost missing POW*MIA soldiers transient drifter panhandlers.

I live in a small dinky little country that refuses to allow nuclear vessels into their waters which makes the US and a couple other countries truly apeshit, and if there was some emergency were a nuclear submarine had to come into our waters it would be an act of war because we would be saying fuck off to deaf ears, and it's not nice to be ignored, not that we would murder the crew and strip the boat for parts, but..

Which would be laws and rules made by your government, right? The military only acknowledges orders and rights of law from official government ambassadors.

• The Swarm gave Janeway one warning. She knew the consequences of ignoring that warning. And she went into their space anyway. Did she ignore that warning because they didn't own the space they controlled, or because she trusted her engineer to keep her ship invisible?

Change "Swarm" to "Maquis".

Did anybody respect the rights of the Maquis when they asked to stay out of their territory? The Federation nor the Cardassian governments acknowledged their claims to anything. Why, because the Maquis like the Swarm are nothing but a gang. Since when does a gang dictate law to the military? The Swarm is a gang of thugs, when do thugs dictate rights of jurisdiction to the military? The military like Starship captains only answer to official government liaisons. Isn't that standard protocol?

Janeway is not a bully nor an idiot.
She did just as she is expected and trained to do under guidelines of military protocol.

 

[DonIago]

Nobody respected Maquis territory because the Maquis were spontaneously claiming that Cardassian and Federation territory was their own. Their species didn't originate there, and instead of trying to be diplomatic about it they engaged in terrorism to try to get what they wanted.

Granted it's kind of like when Americans got all high-and-mighty and declared that the land they'd been granted by the British was suddenly their own...