No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Contact

[Trek Survivor]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

I know it's not canon, but "The Battle of Betazed" (reading for the first time at the mo; enjoying it) suggests the events of the novel take place "two months" after "Tears of the Prophets" and "several months" before "Insurrection". The authors clearly thought that "Insurrection" takes place sometime in the middle of season 7 of Ds9.

I can live with that.

 

[Timo]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Also: Doesn't Riker outright reference the diplomatic corps being busy with negotiations with the Dominion? Would this not suggest that hostilities are still on?

I'd say the exact opposite: why would the Dominion negotiate if the war still continued? Both sides had gotten disillusioned with that in "Statistical Probabilities" already.

The way to bring the Dominion back to the negotiating tables was to put a knife on their throats, with the genocidal weapon of Section 31, and with the promise of curing the disease through Odo. They got a cease-fire out of that, and an end of hostilities, but we never heard anything about Dominion withdrawal or compensation for war losses or other such things that would need negotiating.

Plus, once the disease was cured, the reality of the situation was that the Dominion remained the superior military power. Skilled negotiations would be needed to ensure that the war didn't simply start anew...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

I think it was a vague throwaway line, in order to acknowledge the Dominion's existence, without crossing over too deeply into it.

The Dominion war treaty was signed too quickly for all that to have happened in Insurrection, IMO.

 

[Jono]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Also: Doesn't Riker outright reference the diplomatic corps being busy with negotiations with the Dominion? Would this not suggest that hostilities are still on?

I'd say the exact opposite: why would the Dominion negotiate if the war still continued?

Before the Breen joined it seemed that the Federation Alliance had the upper hand, we don't hear about any significant losses, they retake Benzar, destroy a pretty major shipyards, hold Chin'toka and take Septimus, which as the HQ of a Cardassian Order would most likely be within Cardassian space. Even before that leading up to the capture of Chin'toka waves of Dominion ships were apparently breaking against the cliff face of the Allied defences. Things are looking up from the more desperate times of when Betazed fell when we last heard about them sending out peace feelers, so it is possible that some sections of the Federation might feel more confident that a diplomatic solution might be possibly given that they seemingly have the advantage.

Or on the other hand, maybe the Dominion approached the Federation as a stalling tactic while they were coaxing in the Breen during that middle to late section of the war. Despite how untrustworthy the Dominion might be the Federation isn't one to blindly turn back the possibility of a peaceful solution (even if it is remote) that might save millions or billions of lives, so why not try to exploit it?

 

[Tomalak]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Plus, once the disease was cured, the reality of the situation was that the Dominion remained the superior military power.

Really? The Federation, Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians seemed to have the remaining Dominion forces bottled up around Cardassian Prime, which of course was being systematically razed by the Jem'Hadar.

 

[Anwar]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

The Female Founder's whole "If I order them to fight to the death and rape the Alpha quadrant!" thing really was an empty threat:

1) If the Founders all die, well that's it for the Dominion because the Vorta can't manage the Jem'Hadar themselves or make ketracel-white.

2) With the Prophets keeping the wormhole closed to the Dominion, they can't get reinforcements anymore.

3) Just sit back and let the Jem'Hadar go mad without their ketracel white and all die off.

 

[Timo]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

The Federation, Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians seemed to have the remaining Dominion forces bottled up around Cardassian Prime, which of course was being systematically razed by the Jem'Hadar.

OTOH, the same "bottled-up" force had earlier set shop on a more or less random Alpha culture in front of Starfleet noses, and expanded from there to become a galactic menace. Sisko, Ross and Martok agreed that defeating the force might provide a pyrrhic victory at best; conversely, if the force were to break out, that might be the end of the combined fleets of the Alpha players, after which the Dominion could settle in a new nest and again start waiting for reinforcements from home turf.

the Vorta can't manage the Jem'Hadar themselves or make ketracel-white

Why couldn't they make White? There were factories around for that purpose, some of them run by the Son'a but others apparently by actual Dominion players. As long as the Jem'Hadar themselves didn't directly control those facilities, everything would remain as it was regarding the chemical control of the soldiers.

Or are we supposed to think that the Founders themselves personally manufacture (or perhaps even secrete) the White? That would hardly be in keeping with the fact that they are mostly considered mythical, that is, nonexistent or at least nonphysical!

With the Prophets keeping the wormhole closed to the Dominion, they can't get reinforcements anymore.

They can, in seventy years. Which is probably how long it would take Alpha to recover from the initial onslaught...

Just sit back and let the Jem'Hadar go mad without their ketracel white and all die off.

That'd depend on exactly where the Jem'Hadar go mad...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Well, I'd imagine that the Founders wouldn't allow anyone to really control the Ketracel-White production and distribution other than themselves. Kind of defeats the purpose of the Dominion for them to create and army and have it be in the control of someone who could rebel against them.

The Vorta would act as their proxies to retain the "Myth" stuff but it would be foolish for them to allow the Vorta true autonomy or control over anything as important as the White.

As for the Jem'Hadar...well wouldn't they go mad inside their fortifications first?

In the 70 years it would take to reach them, my guess is that the Jem'Hadar would have gone mad and destroyed the Dominion in that time without the White.

 

[Timo]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Kind of defeats the purpose of the Dominion for them to create and army and have it be in the control of someone who could rebel against them.

Kind of defeats the purpose of creating the Vorta if the Founders can't trust them with anything, though.

I really can't see the Founders as actually running the day-to-day affairs of the Dominion at any level. Especially the war effort would be something they'd really hesitate to dip their tentacles into, as there'd be little appeal in dying for the sake of solids. A few elite agents of Founder persuasion, perhaps, yes - but not factory managers for the White.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Like I said, the Vorta are their proxies. And since I don't see them really trusting them, odds are that they are genetically programmed to serve the Founders and be incapable of action without them getting orders from them. Once the Founders died from the virus, the Vorta would probably lose purpose in life and just...well, stand around.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

A little of both explanations are true, I think.

Theoretically, the Dominion could be run indefinitely by the Vorta themselves.

They control the white and the distribution of it. They seem to run the day to day operations of the Dominion.
And most Jem Hadar have never seen a Founder.

And yet the Jem Hadar will kill themselves if they allow a Founder to die, and the Vorta might behave the same way.

I think the Vorta do control the white themselves, but the Founders are too paranoid to trust them completely.

The only negotiation period specifically mentioned and that actually took place was right after Starfleet took DS9 in Statistical Probabilities as mentioned previously.
And the part about Peace Feelers not too long after that.

If these negotiations occurred anytime before the battle of Cardassia, Insurrection's story line is going to look plain silly.

You don't go on leisure scientific missions during wartime. If there was a sneak attack on earth, what's Enterprise's explanation going to be-- they were busy studying the ruins on a long gone civilation-....and frolicking around nude and singing... and solving groovy mysteries...

 

[Timo]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

And yet the Jem Hadar will kill themselves if they allow a Founder to die, and the Vorta might behave the same way.

To be sure, several Vortas were explicitly placed in that situation in DS9, and they all voted for survival - even when it meant betraying the Founders.

I'm sure the Founders have engineered some sort of a control mechanism into the Vorta as well, but it doesn't appear to be overtly crude or simple. Perhaps they have perfected enlightened cowardice and made it inevitable that in covering their own asses, the Vorta always end up serving the Dominion?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

And yet the Jem Hadar will kill themselves if they allow a Founder to die, and the Vorta might behave the same way.

To be sure, several Vortas were explicitly placed in that situation in DS9, and they all voted for survival - even when it meant betraying the Founders.

I'm sure the Founders have engineered some sort of a control mechanism into the Vorta as well, but it doesn't appear to be overtly crude or simple.

Timo Saloniemi

True, it seems like they didn't engineer as deeply with the Vorta- they seem to have more choices.

It's like a coin toss to see if they would actually do something like kill themselves if all the Founders were wiped out.
My bet is they probably would.

Perhaps they have perfected enlightened cowardice and made it inevitable that in covering their own asses, the Vorta always end up serving the Dominion?

I've noticed that the Vorta, never carried or used weapons-it's like all the capacity to commit physical violence was bred out of them, yet the ability to order a soldier to commit violence was strong in place.


If the Vorta were in charge of producing the white as well as distributing it, then theoretically, the Dominion could run itself long after the Founders were gone.

 

[Anwar]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Kind of counter-productive to why the Founders made the Dominion in the first place, no?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Kind of counter-productive to why the Founders made the Dominion in the first place, no?

I originally thought that the Founders were in involved in everything the Dominion did, including distributing the white.

Then one episode a Jem Hadar stated that the Vorta controlled the drug.

After that, it looked like Weyoun was pretty much making most of the decisions during the war until the Founder stepped in.

I think the Founders designed it that way because they didn't want to deal with 'solids' frequently, and yet wanted the Dominion to be run orderly at the same time.

 

[Timo]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Indeed. It doesn't appear as if the Founders really want a Dominion at all - except as a buffer between themselves and the cruel Solid world. The less they are involved in managing the buffer, the better. If they could just open a gate to some alternate, empty realm, drag their comfy little hideaway planet there, and then close the gate behind them, they'd probably forget about the Dominion in a heartbeat, or the Changeling equivalent thereto.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

But what if the Vorta ever decided to turn on them? There has to be some kind of control in there to prevent that. And if they are programmed like that, what happens if they are without the Founders completely? If they think of them as Gods, then knowing your Gods all died has got to shake you up a bit.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

After that, it looked like Weyoun was pretty much making most of the decisions during the war until the Founder stepped in.

I think the Founders designed it that way because they didn't want to deal with 'solids' frequently, and yet wanted the Dominion to be run orderly at the same time.

The Founders thought the war would be a quick one. If the minefield and the Prophets hadn't allowed for reinforcements, and the female Changeling hadn't got trapped on our side of the wormhole, it's likely Weyoun would just have fun the show.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

I think, in theory, just having faith the Founders were still alive would be enough for the Vorta to run the Dominion indefinitely, since it seems like they don't have to actually meet a Founder to run it.

From what I've seen, the Founders designed the Dominion to be like a self running machine with the Vorta as a main gear.

I don't know, the Vorta are kind of strange-they seem to be less tampered with genetically, and yet obviously they were tampered with because they are just as fanatical as the Jem Hadar.

There's no way the Founders would trust them with that power if they weren't genetically engineered to obey them.

And yet in order to function in their role they have to have more independent behavior than the Jem Hadar.

I'm betting their reaction would be 50/50 or unpredictable - they may all commit suicide, or they may go an angered rampage to avenge them and then commit suicide.

Or the founders may have told them to continue bringing order to the galaxy no matter what, who knows with them...

 

[Anwar]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

I always assumed that the Founders somehow were able to communicate with the Vorta from wherever the Great Link was and were giving them orders one way or another. They're too paranoid and mistrustful of solid life to leave any alone (even their own creations) in charge of anything.