No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Contact

[CoveTom]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

You guys do know that there were both TNG/DS9 crossovers and DS9/Voyager crossovers, right? And references to both DS9 and Voyager in the films? I mean, they weren't going to sit around and just constantly reference each other's work just for the sake of having references. But they were never shy about crossovers and cross-series references when it made story sense.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Didn't B'lanna go semi-psycho after finding out that her friends in the Maquis were wiped out by the Jem'hadar?

True, B'lana does react and that's when I watched for the other crew's reaction and there was nothing.

Everyone's getting letters and no one says anything about anxiety about the war. No news updates and how it affects the crew-no mention or reactions.

It was like the rule was in play again-don't mention events from another trek series, even if it would be logical to mention them to keep the story realistic.

It was like the whole Worf not mentioning anything at all about Dukat murdering his wife -he just gets mad at everyone else, and then goes on a special mission for her-nothing to do with revenge against Dukat.

Comes off as a little odd considering what we know about Klingons.

I don't think it is so much as referencing something than the context.

If something big is happening like the Dominion War which threatens the entire quadrant, than the idea that Data would be observing a colony of people on a scientific mission seems out of place.

Some fans might feel that production was deliberately keeping the Enterprise away from the Dominion War story line.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Didn't B'lanna go semi-psycho after finding out that her friends in the Maquis were wiped out by the Jem'hadar?

True, B'lana does react and that's when I watched for the other crew's reaction and there was nothing.

I also remember a lesser reaction from Chakotay. Other than those two, we really didn't see too many Maquis among the Voyager's crew. Paris was never truely a Maquis. As for the rest of the featured characters, why would they care? The Maquis were nothing but criminals and fools, whose actions could have sparked another war with the Union, and did lead to Voyager getting trapped in the DQ.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

I don't think it was so much that Behr was bitter as it was that as a writer, he didn't see the need to be dropping crossovers from the show or out of the show left and right. All he says is that had he written the movie, the Defiant wouldn't have been in it* and that if he had his way, they wouldn't reference it on DS9.

Well guess what? He didn't write the movie, but he was the showrunner on DS9 at the time so he had the final word (creatively) on what went in to the scripts. Now you could say that Rick Berman did too (he did) but do you really think that this kind of thing was going to be a major discussion while prepping any of the episodes that aired after FC came out? And if so, do you really think Rick Berman would advocate for such a minor nit?

I can understand the perspective he has on it. Is it really that big a deal that DS9 never mentions this? Creatively speaking, the feature films did a piss-poor job reintroducing Worf to the fold ... the Defiant was the least clumsy way of the three films they did it, but again I see Behr's point - don't do a crossover just for the sake of a crossover. And while general continuity is a nice thing to keep in line, DS9 wasn't hurt in any major or minor way by their not mentioning the damage to the Defiant.

*Also, there is a bit in the "Star Trek Sketchbook" discussing the starship Endeavor, which was going to be a new ship and would be featured in the opening battle with the Borg for the sole purpose of being destroyed in some spectacular fashion. A few drafts later Endeavor became the Defiant, and a draft or two after that, the Defiant went from 'being destroyed' to 'adrift, but salvageable.'

 

[3rd RemataKlan]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

The Borg invasion was mentioned in "In Purgatory's Shadow"/"By Inferno's Light". Sisko talks about the fleet being spread thin because of the Klingon war and the recent Borg invasion.

Nice and subtle.

 

[G2309]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

The Borg invasion was mentioned in "In Purgatory's Shadow"/"By Inferno's Light". Sisko talks about the fleet being spread thin because of the Klingon war and the recent Borg invasion.

Nice and subtle.

Yeh that was good enough for me. Wish we had more of an explanation why the Romulan fleet was in a state

 

[Timo]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

The lack of mention of the Defiant needing repairs doesn't impact the actual episode in any way nor would a mention of it really enhance the episode.

OTOH, had such a mention been made, it would have created a fixpoint that would establish where the episode and the movie stand relative to each other on the timeline. And we're lucky we didn't get such a fixpoint, because it would probably just have created more timeline contradictions! Even the idea of having "In Purgatory's Shadow" take place after ST:FC is a bit difficult to fit into the whole...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hober Mallow]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Behr was miffed about plans to destroy the Defiant. In an interview he said he warned Berman that if the Defiant were destroyed in FC, he would go right on using it on DS9 as if nothing happened.

 

[Anwar]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Even if they hadn't had plans to destroy it, he'd just have been PO'ed that it was in FC at all.

Hell, he probably didn't like the "recent Borg attack" mention later on in DS9 either.

 

[Sci]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Hell, he probably didn't like the "recent Borg attack" mention later on in DS9 either.

Actually, he was the one who put that in there. He co-wrote that episode with Hans Beimler.

Behr just didn't like it when someone else was potentially disrupting his story plans. Trek doesn't only belong to him, but it doesn't only belong to Berman, Braga, and Moore, either. If they've hired him to tell his story on DS9, they should let him tell his story on DS9 without interfering. That's not being petty, that's being reasonable.

 

[jadzia_dax2369]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

omg, why does this not surprise me.

 

[CoveTom]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Behr was miffed about plans to destroy the Defiant. In an interview he said he warned Berman that if the Defiant were destroyed in FC, he would go right on using it on DS9 as if nothing happened.

Oh, please. Berman was Behr's boss. Berman was ultimately in charge of DS9. It's not like Behr could have just decided to throw continuity out the window and not play nice with the movies and Berman couldn't have done anything about it.

I think all this talk about Behr being all bent out of shape is highly exaggerated. My impression was that Behr didn't like the fact that they wanted to destroy the Defiant in First Contact, and because of his objections, they added the "adrift, but salvageable" line. Other than that, I've never heard of him objecting to its use, and he even comments on one of the DVD special features about how proud they were that the Defiant made it into the movies and got referred to as a "tough little ship."

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

Behr was miffed about plans to destroy the Defiant. In an interview he said he warned Berman that if the Defiant were destroyed in FC, he would go right on using it on DS9 as if nothing happened.

Right or wrong, that would have been funny

 

[krovikan]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

I thought that the defiant was there as an excuse for worf to be in the movie as it is sorta a TNG movie and he is TNG crew... just like in Insurrection when he gives some lame excuse and is sorta cut off mid sentance (not so much by the crew, but by the movie)

 

[G2309]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

It's good they addressed Worf joining the Enterprise. It also would have been a shame if a ship specifically designed to fight the Borg never had a chance to face them. Since it appeared to be fighting for hours it did welll. I wonder how the battle would have been if there was a Defiant class fleet like star fleet originally planned.

 

[Saquist]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

From the Memory Alpha page for the DS9 episode "Rapture":
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Rapture_(episode)

Although some fans find it unusual that there is no acknowledgment of Star Trek: First Contact in this episode, such as a reference to the USS Defiant needing repair work, this was not an oversight on the part of the writers, but was in fact a conscious decision. Ira Steven Behr was not happy with how the Defiant had been used in the film ("I didn't see the point in bringing it on just to kick the crap out of"), and he didn't see any reason to draw attention to it in this episode.

Does this seem unusually bitter to anyone else? The defiant was designed to battle the Borg so it makes perfect sense to me that it would be right there on the front line during a Borg attack. This was also the closest we pretty much ever got to having any part of DS9 in a movie.

Seems extremely petty to me, like a little kid that got snubbed who takes his ball and goes home.

Then again, shit seems to flow both ways as they were never allowed to use the Sovereign class model in any DS9 battle scene, so maybe there was reason to be bitter?

I have to agree whole heartedly with Ira.
They copped out the Defiant with that little comment by Riker and the entire scene...

 

[Rarewolf]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

The lack of mention of the Defiant needing repairs doesn't impact the actual episode in any way nor would a mention of it really enhance the episode.

OTOH, had such a mention been made, it would have created a fixpoint that would establish where the episode and the movie stand relative to each other on the timeline. And we're lucky we didn't get such a fixpoint, because it would probably just have created more timeline contradictions! Even the idea of having "In Purgatory's Shadow" take place after ST:FC is a bit difficult to fit into the whole...

Timo Saloniemi

That's the trouble with crossovers, They are fine in their native country on first broadcast, but unlikely to be in sync again ever after. I possibly saw First Contact before any of season 5.

 

[indolover]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

I found it odd that there were never any lines mentioning it.

In Insurrection, Worf must have been away for weeks, but not even a simple line by O'Brien asking how Picard is lol.

 

[Hofner]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

I found it odd that there were never any lines mentioning it.

In Insurrection, Worf must have been away for weeks, but not even a simple line by O'Brien asking how Picard is lol.

Well, considering in "Insurrection" the TNG crew were not fighting in the front lines of the Dominion war, some people claim it had to have taken place after the war was over. In other words, after the DS9 finale.

Having an "Insurrection" mention on DS9 while the war was still raging would've trashed that claim.

Robert

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: No acknowledgment of defiant’s role against the borg in First Cont

I noticed that Worf wasn't referred to as Ambassador in the movie.

If this was after the war, Worf should have been known as an ambassador, which Picard and the crew would have definitively have made a point to do.

There's no Stardate mentioned at all in the movie -I think it has to do with the Dominion war and keeping the Enterprise out of it.

In fact the dialog shows they were headed on an archaeological expedition.

It seems odd-there's a good argument that the flagship should have been involved in the final battle of the war.

What's the point of being the most 'advanced ship in the fleet' if they're going to sit out and study ruins on an alien planet far away?

By not getting involved in the war, and mentioning it very little, it made the TNG crew look stuck in the past and out of touch..