Niners Unite...around Babylon 5!

[BigFoot]

^ Wow, that was deep. You must be new here.

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

superlaserman said:
Anyone who likes Babylon 5 is also guilty of gang raping an Australian Aboriginie on a pinball machine.

Like you weren't all thinking it.

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[PKTrekGirl]

superlaserman said:
Anyone who likes Babylon 5 is also guilty of gang raping an Australian Aboriginie on a pinball machine.

Like you weren't all thinking it.

Unsurprisingly, you have a warning for trolling.

PM me if you have an issue with this...but as I am currently on vaction in Italy, don't expect a warp-speed fast reply.

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

Anywho...Moving on!

 

[Mal]

superlaserman said:
gang raping an Australian Aboriginie on a pinball machine.

why don't you eliminate the entire narn homeworld, while you're at it?

 

[Katrine]

All in good time, my friend.
or was it One thng at a time.

 

[Lindley]

Mal said:

superlaserman said:
gang raping an Australian Aboriginie on a pinball machine.

why don't you eliminate the entire narn homeworld, while you're at it?

The sad part is, the person in question wouldn't "get" any of the best responses.

Since with a post like that, you know they haven't seen much of the show.

 

[Neroon]

Jingley said:

Mal said:
why don't you eliminate the entire narn homeworld, while you're at it?

The sad part is, the person in question wouldn't "get" any of the best responses.

Since with a post like that, you know they haven't seen much of the show.

Hehe.... I almost prefer it that way. A comment like the original one belies an attitude that needs no more proof. So when a nice rejoinder like Mal's comes along I rather enjoy just sitting back and laughing.

 

[MyCylon]

I haven't been following this thread since I wasn't able to watch B5 at the time it started. I got the chance later on but didn't remember this thread up until now.
I don't want to do any big reviews or anything, just drop a few thoughts as a DS9 fan who was too caught up in the whole DS9 vs. B5 stuff back then to appreciate both shows.

First of all, it's really extraordinary that we got two shows like this practically at the same time. Both intelligent, ambitious and very, very entertaining. They're both, in my view, the opposite of what Trek presented us in the form of VOY or ENT and went on to fuel shows such as nuBSG. And that's a great thing.
I'm currently through the first four seasons of B5 and have rewatched the premiere of S5 (just as a note: back when it was originally on, I saw the entire run of B5). In brief my thoughts so far:



Through the seasons:
- S1 has its moments but overall is pretty weak and a lot like standard Trek (TM) in many ways, I think. However, it's nice to see the bits and pieces that get dropped here and become important later
- The show is amazing from about the end of S2 up until the end of the Shadow war. I found the way the war ended to be somewhat anticlimactic. They talked their way out of it? Sent the bullies away? I don't know, it didn't really work for me, to be honest. There are worse ways to do it but definitely better ones as well, I think.
- After the end of the war, the show seems to hit a slump. It takes it until somewhere around the middle or the final third of S4 (not quite sure anymore) to pick up a certain pace again with all the things concerning Clark, Mars and the Psi Corps. One thing that did bother me a bit was the notion of one big huge war ending only to have a new one follow so directly. It felt a bit repetetive to me in some ways although I can certainly see that the stakes were very different.
- S5 is up next. I remember it as somewhat weaker than what came before but I'm still curious to see it as well as the B5 movies.

Characters/Actors:
- It took me some time to get used to Sheridan with that sonnyboy grin of his - but he is an interesting if (at times, anyway) controversial character. Boxleitner does a really good job, mind you.
- I never could get used to Delenn and the actresses style of acting. Even rewatching the show now, I couldn't help but notice the overacting which, to me, just seems to smack of the "Soap Opera School of Acting"
- G'Kar's development is amazing. I love the way he seems to have reached a view on the universe that only very few will ever share. He seems to lose that a bit again later on in the show
- Londo's another great character. Rise, fall, rise, fall, redemption? Much of the time he believes he's in control but isn't. That really does make him quite tragic though he certainly deservers no pitty.
- I don't like Byron, honestly speaking, which might be a problem looking ahead to watching S5

Some more notes:
- Comedy: Really strong hit or miss here. I often felt that a sense for the proper time and place of a comedy moment was somewhat lacking on B5, i.e. sometimes 'humour' would pop up inappropriately, at least in my view. However, there were also many ver yfunny moments especially between London and G'Kar.
- Fist fights: Most of the fist fights on B5 were filmed in such a way that I inadvertedly always pictured a crowd of stuntmen and extras surrounded by a film crew just waiting for the "And...Action!" call to sound. Most of the times, the fights just seemed to break out in a very artificial fashion with everyone suddenly just battling everyone else. This is not a major gripe I have just something that from a certain point onwards always made me chuckle
- Music: Some really great music. I wish DS9 had been more free with the music from the get-go. I especially love the opening theme for S3, thought that for S4 was also very good and was then somewhat disappointed with what came for S5. However, it's very nice that they used a different opening and music for each season.



So, thus far, I've REALLY enjoyed watching the show. DS9 is still my favourite but I can only say I wish there were more shows like B5 out there.
In the final analysis, I think B5 takes a while to get into. It requires you to simply accept a fair amount of things that can make getting into it difficult (IMHO that's mixed quality in acting and dialog, mixed quality in effects, costumes etc. and some other points) but you get a hell of a lot back in return. I'd recommend this to any SciFi-fan as well as people who like/d DS9 or nuBSG. Great stuff!

 

[Lindley]

Justtoyourleft said:
- The show is amazing from about the end of S2 up until the end of the Shadow war. I found the way the war ended to be somewhat anticlimactic. They talked their way out of it? Sent the bullies away? I don't know, it didn't really work for me, to be honest. There are worse ways to do it but definitely better ones as well, I think.

You have to understand JMS' mindset on this. He knows as well as anyone that violence is sometimes necessary to stop the bad guys. But he does not condone violence just for the sake of "looking cool", and in both B5 and Jeremiah, the *final* solution to a situation is rarely violent, no matter how much shooting occurred during the lead-up.

On the one hand, as a viewer, this can be disappointing. On the other, he does lay out for the viewer exactly how things are going to end; if the viewer doesn't notice or chooses to ignore the foreshadowing, that can hardly be laid at JMS' doorstep.

In the case of the Vorlons and Shadows, by the time of "Into the Fire", it was well-established that their motives for fighting hinged on the control of the younger races' development. When Sheridan (and by proxy his entire, multi-race fleet) rejected both sides, the entire reason for them to fight was gone. Any further battle would have been out of sheer spite on their part, and supposedly the First Ones are more evolved than that.

 

[MyCylon]

Morgoth and others picked me up on the same issue in a different thread. If I can manage, I'll collect what I said there in this thread (suffice it to say I don't want to write it all again ).
For now, I'll just say that I think the problem is NOT in not recognizing the buildup - I did. It has to do with a number of problems that I pointed out in the other thread. I'd also like to note that I wasn't necessarily expecting a wild shootout at the end - just something different from what we got. I see the logic in the story but the realization falters IMHO.
Oh, and for the time being, here's the link to the discussion (beginning where Morgoth laid out the reasons as to why the scene happened the way it did - note this wasn't a response to anything I posted but someone else who was disappointed as well): "Violence inducing SF scenes?"
Sorry for leaving at that right now but I'm off too bed -spent too much time playing our new Wii with my girlfriend

 

[The Habs Fan]

I recently have started buying the B5 DVDs and watching the series for the first time. I just finished season 2 and will begin season 3 tonight. I love this show. I still like Star Trek better, but Babylon 5 is great as well. I liked season 1 a lot, but season 2 was even better. And now I'm reading that season 3 is even better than season 2!

 

[Can]

Hold tight Tom Riker ! The Season 3 rocks. In some parts and scenes I remember I had amazed and stood speechless at JMS's storytelling and foresight...

Waiting your reviews

By the way after watching B5 series I highly recommed B5 movies also. They enrich the whole story well maybe except last one "To Live and Die in..." It was nonsense...

 

[The Habs Fan]

Can said:
By the way after watching B5 series I highly recommed B5 movies also. They enrich the whole story well maybe except last one "To Live and Die in..." It was nonsense...

I'm watching the movies where they fall chronologically, except for In The Beginning, which I'll be watching between seasons 4 and 5. What is "To Live and Die in..."? Never heard of that one. Here are the ones I know of:

In The Beginning
Thirdspace
River of Souls
A Call To Arms
Legend of the Rangers

Last night I watched Matters Of Honor and Convictions.

Matters Of Honor was very good and it had a nice twist at the end that showed some Earth officials in league with Morden and the Shadows. I had some suspicions along those lines, now they're confirmed. I have no idea what's in the side of the galaxy the Shadows want, but I'm intrigued. The White Star is also an interesting ship, and the new Ranger character (Marcus) seems good too.

Convictions was more of a standalone, but still very good. I did like the Londo and G'Kar stuck in the elevator together scenes. As a standalone story it was pretty good, but not important to the bigger storyline. (Unless it is important and I don't know it yet).

 

[Can]

I meant "Legend of Rangers : To Live And Die in Starlight"
sorry

Some of the movies are great in B5 like "In the Beginning" , "Thirdspace" and "A Call to Arms". "A Call to Arms" is also pilot episode of short lived but still great "Crusade" series. Highly recommended that one.

So you are in S3 , You finished Matters of Honor. Well Londo and G'kar are an excellent pair aren't they ? At the other hand you began to see next moves of Shadows and the depth of conspiracies. I would like to read your reviews and impressions about each episode.

waiting your reply , see ya !

 

[The Habs Fan]

Can said:
"A Call to Arms" is also pilot episode of short lived but still great "Crusade" series. Highly recommended that one.

I am going to watch Crusade as well. Like with Star Trek, I'm a completist so I like watching everything there is in a particlar universe/storyline.

 

[MyCylon]

Lindley said:

Justtoyourleft said:
- The show is amazing from about the end of S2 up until the end of the Shadow war. I found the way the war ended to be somewhat anticlimactic. They talked their way out of it? Sent the bullies away? I don't know, it didn't really work for me, to be honest. There are worse ways to do it but definitely better ones as well, I think.

You have to understand JMS' mindset on this. He knows as well as anyone that violence is sometimes necessary to stop the bad guys. But he does not condone violence just for the sake of "looking cool", and in both B5 and Jeremiah, the *final* solution to a situation is rarely violent, no matter how much shooting occurred during the lead-up.

On the one hand, as a viewer, this can be disappointing. On the other, he does lay out for the viewer exactly how things are going to end; if the viewer doesn't notice or chooses to ignore the foreshadowing, that can hardly be laid at JMS' doorstep.

In the case of the Vorlons and Shadows, by the time of "Into the Fire", it was well-established that their motives for fighting hinged on the control of the younger races' development. When Sheridan (and by proxy his entire, multi-race fleet) rejected both sides, the entire reason for them to fight was gone. Any further battle would have been out of sheer spite on their part, and supposedly the First Ones are more evolved than that.

Now, it took me a bit longer than expected but I've collected the posts regarding the discussion of the end to the Shadow/Vorlon war from the thread "Violence inducing SF scenes?". It really contains pretty much everything I can say in respect to the scene in question. Plus I think it contains some interesting notes on the way the series is construced (in a positive way!).
I hope this isn't too long. Anyhow, enjoy!


The end of the Shadow/Vorlon war - different views

Babaganoosh said:
The Shadows and Vorlons in B5 - a mere human being (Sheridan) just says "Get the hell out of our galaxy" and they LISTEN to him? They should have blasted him to atoms...

morgoth said:
Well, you must understand that the point wasn't about guns; the Shadows and Vorlons were fighting over ideology. If the Shadows (who believe in Chaos) beat the Vorlons (who believe in Order), it wouldn't prove that Chaos is better than Order; they wouldn't be proven "right" if they killed every last Vorlon. They'd have lost the arguement in a way. So the Vorlons and Shadows never directly fight each other that much, but bait the lesser races into being allied with one or the other.

The Shadows are pretty bad, but objectively, Sheridan finds out that they're not ENTIRELY evil, that is, not moustache-twirling evil. It's just their philosophy that Chaos works to promote growh, and time and again they've been proven right (though at genocidal cost).

Meanwhile, he learns that the Vorlons aren't NECESSARILY good; they're kind of nice, representing Order, but that basically means they want you do Do As You Are Told and stagnate, never reaching you potention and growing. Kosh (the original, real one) as an individual was nice for a Vorlon, and actually cared about the lesser races, but turns out most of the other Vorlons didn't (i.e. Kosh #2) really.

So when Sheridan goes "I choose neither" there's nothing they can do; shooting him wouldn't prove anything. The Vorlons and Shadows were NEVER in it to blow up a lot of ships or get territory. It was an ideological war, and Sheridan and the others ended up choosing neither one. That's the whole point: as Lorien (who taught the Shadows and Vorlons) said, they got it wrong; it's supposed to be a balance of Chaos and Order, but they got it wrong and starting thinking their way was the only way.

Justtoyourleft said:

Trubinator said:
I'm glad someone here understands Babylon 5.

*sigh* There's simply different opinions on this. It's not a question of understanding or not understanding it. Morgoth put up a good argument as to why it makes sense that it ended that way.
At the same time, I think there are enough reasons to back up people who think it doesn't and was a weak ending to such massive build up. I happen to think it's pretty weak, actually. And I'm sure the problem is not in understanding it.

Neroon said:
It's a matter of perspective and interpretation, I suppose. I wasn't caught off guard by it myself, but that's because I was expecting something different from B5 in the first place. To my way of thinking, it was good to see a story revolving around ideology resolved in that way as opposed to yet another cosmic battle with Titanic forces. But again.... that is my perspective and a feeble attempt to explain why I did not find it weak or "violence inducing".

morgoth, that was a very eloquent explanation, far better than anythign I could have dreamed up.

Justtoyourleft said:
^^
I'm not even sure it's a huge battle I was expecting. It may have to do with several factors but in the end it just felt anticlimactic to me. The way I perceived it was this:

- HUGE confrontation underway
- Let's talk
- Sheridan talks to the Shadows, Delenn to the Vorlons (correct me if I'm mixing it up)
- They say: "No thanks"
- Shadows, Vorlons and everyone else whose part of the older races packs their bags and is gone

To me, there's just something missing there. It just reminded me of SO MANY Trek confrontations that were resolved just like this: The Captain gives an amazing speech, speaking of individuality, freedom etc. and everything is resolved.
As I said, I think there are several problems to this. I'll just try to list a few things I can think of:

- Delenn/Sheridan to me just don't seem to be on one level with the Shadows or the Vorlons
- Sheridan through his death/rebirth COULD be on a level closer to them but that never really comes through in my view
- Vorlons and Shadows to some degree lack a 'face' which makes the above mentioned problem even more prominent in my mind
- Why should Shadows and Vorlons listen to Sheridan? He's bound not to be the first one to confront them so why not get him out of the way and assume the others won't follow his example? (I know that Morgoth presented a possible answer to this but I don't quite buy it)

I suppose I would have expected the resolution to somehow come from Sheridan's experience of dying and being reborn, granting ways and means not available to others to end the war. I don't know how this would exactly present itself and I'm not sure this wasn't supposed to be part of the way things developed anyway (he WAS changed as a person after his experience, bringing more resolve and determination than before).

So, in the end I can see why people would be satisfied with the conclusion to the war. I can also understand it on a theoretical level but in the end, it just doesn't come off right in my mind.

UWC Defiance said:
Ditto on the Vorlons and Shadows. Incredibly lame, just cut the legs out from whatever yarn the producers thought they were spinning. I've seen Picard put more effort into dealing with recalcitrant aliens.

Lately, Kara Thrace.

Orintho said:

UWC Defiance said:
Ditto on the Vorlons and Shadows. Incredibly lame, just cut the legs out from whatever yarn the producers thought they were spinning. I've seen Picard put more effort into dealing with recalcitrant aliens.

Lately, Kara Thrace.

To be fair on the Shadow/Vorlon resolution, at the time, the powers that be were messing with JMS and falsely telling him that B5 was only going to get 4 seasons, rather than five. This is why the Shadow/Vorlon War was ended rather abruptly.

morgoth said:

Justtoyourleft said:To me, there's just something missing there. It just reminded me of SO MANY Trek confrontations that were resolved just like this: The Captain gives an amazing speech, speaking of individuality, freedom etc. and everything is resolved.

Yeah but on Trek they pull the speach out of nowhere: Sheridan's realization that "who the frak are YOU and what do YOU want?! We choose neither!" etc., was actually built up and the point of the show.

Well not necessarily the "point", but I mean the whole "Vorlons are Order, Shadows are Chaos" thing was built up already (in "Za'ha'dum" notably)

So when I saw it, it actually flowed logically to me. It didn't come out of nowhere.

morgoth said:

Justtoyourleft said: Why should Shadows and Vorlons listen to Sheridan? He's bound not to be the first one to confront them so why not get him out of the way and assume the others won't follow his example? (I know that Morgoth presented a possible answer to this but I don't quite buy it)

That's the whole point: they wanted to "listen" to the lesser races....in the sense that when two parents are fighting, they want their child to side with one or the other and are listening to who they're siding with.

The Shadows and Vorlons couldn't prove that Chaos or Order were better, and killing the other side off wouldn't have proven who was right, so they resorted to basically trying to get the lesser races to ideologically side with them.

Like two parents fighting, baiting their children and promising gifts, knowledge, etc. they manipulated everyone into taking sides; i.e. the Shadows help out the Centauri, and in return the Centauri fight lots of wars and start lots of Chaos, resulting in the near-eradication of the Narn....and as a result of this Chaos and Conflist, the Narn grew as a race (spiritually matured), etc. The Minbari become the Vorlon's lapdogs, and they get lots of help in the last Shadow War and protection, but at the same time, Minbari society has stagnated and their technology hasn't significantly advanced in a century, while the humans have grown by leaps and bounds and in a few decades will actually outpace them.

The entire analogy is that like two parents fighting, they want their "children" to decide which one is right. And Sheridan & Co. basically threw up their hands and said "we will have no part of this or of you". After that, why bother fighting them?

Neroon said:

Orintho said:
To be fair on the Shadow/Vorlon resolution, at the time, the powers that be were messing with JMS and falsely telling him that B5 was only going to get 4 seasons, rather than five. This is why the Shadow/Vorlon War was ended rather abruptly.

In all fairness, he wasn't being told falsely. There really was to be no 4th season, at least not with PTEN. There was no reality for a 5th season until TNT came through at the last second, after nearly all of S4 was completed.

Justtoyourleft said:

morgoth said:
That's the whole point: they wanted to "listen" to the lesser races....in the sense that when two parents are fighting, they want their child to side with one or the other and are listening to who they're siding with.

I think you've actually put your finger on two things that bother me with the whole thing right there.
One, I didn't register at any point beforehand the slightest notion on Vorlon or Shadow side to somehow want to liste to the younger races. So, why now? As far as I recall, there was no build up to this. And that's a problem. With build up, it can work. But this way, to me anyway, it just seems pretty much out of the blue (note: I don't mean that the logic of the argument and the context of the speech within the war is 'out of the blue' - but I think there's a piece in the puzzle missing).
Two, I think the whole "parent"/"child" think suddenly became too "in your face" or blatant for my taste. There are parallels but it's not the same thing. At the very least, the older races did not create the younger ones (I know there's adoption but I'm just referring to the very basic idea people have of 'biological' parents). So, you'd probably end up more on the level of siblings as an example, one older, one younger. In any case, it just shone through that bit too much that this was what the writer(s) was going for.

The Shadows and Vorlons couldn't prove that Chaos or Order were better, and killing the other side off wouldn't have proven who was right, so they resorted to basically trying to get the lesser races to ideologically side with them.

Like two parents fighting, baiting their children and promising gifts, knowledge, etc. they manipulated everyone into taking sides; i.e. the Shadows help out the Centauri, and in return the Centauri fight lots of wars and start lots of Chaos, resulting in the near-eradication of the Narn....and as a result of this Chaos and Conflist, the Narn grew as a race (spiritually matured), etc. The Minbari become the Vorlon's lapdogs, and they get lots of help in the last Shadow War and protection, but at the same time, Minbari society has stagnated and their technology hasn't significantly advanced in a century, while the humans have grown by leaps and bounds and in a few decades will actually outpace them.

The entire analogy is that like two parents fighting, they want their "children" to decide which one is right. And Sheridan & Co. basically threw up their hands and said "we will have no part of this or of you". After that, why bother fighting them?

Why bother fighting in the first place then? There is no 'point' to this war in any case. It's ideological, as you pointed out.
If we take a look at ideological wars of out time, Cold War and if you will also War War II, they were ended either by threat of force or by pure force. Many, many talks were also part of the process. In any case, it wasn't simply one speech that convinced the US and the Soviet Union (to use the Cold War as an example) to cut the crap.
I suppose it's down to this point where I'd just say: It doesn't work like that. I'd have to say even less so when the one giving the speech is a human and the two parties in question are these advanced, self-absorbed, superior alien races.
Think of it this way: Did the fall of the Iron Curtain come about because a Korean gave an amazing speech telling both sides that "We choose neither"?

I guess for me it boils down to this: The logic in itself works out fine. It makes sense from what we've seen and what we know. The way it was done, however, was way, WAY oversimplified for whatever reasons. And that's where it becomes hard for me to swallow. B5 is highly ambitious. It's more akin to stumbling over things like these than shows such as TNG. Note: In my view it stumbled but didn't actually fall. It took a dip, though.

In the end, if it worked for you, that's great! It didn't really work for me but not to such a degree that I'd have to say I'll never watch it again.

One more note concerning production problems: It's a shame that there were problems and that it's really, really hard to deal with this stuff when you're trying to tell a story the way JMS did. However, in the end, there's only the finished product to judge. That not always fair but there you are.

Neroon said:
All well-argued and valid points, but... you're applying logic more akin to human society than to what we envision of these ancient races with powers that dwarf what ours would possess in that universe. It's not all that different from comparing life in two dimensions vs life in three or higher. The reasons for fighting a war are likely to be just as different between these races. Consider that Vorlon and Shadow live almost immortally, to the extent that they are possibly going to have very different goals and reasons for fighting.

Justtoyourleft said:
^^
I suppose that, again, is part of the problem. I agree that the logic I applied re. the example I used refers to us, humans and not to these advanced alien races.
However, the fact that THEY ARE IN FACT advanced alien races makes it even more difficult for me to swallow. I.e. the Korean guy telling the US and the Soviets to let them be seems to be more likely than one human and one Minbari telling these age-old, advanced alien races.

I think that beyond all reasoning this is really down to how you perceive it. For me, personally, it's this simple: I watch it and I just can't really buy it. I see the arguments, I see the logic but it still just feels like a letdown to me.
In the end, I'm happy that people do enjoy it and are happy with it. It's essentially a similar problem to what I've seen in terms of DS9, for example. There are many people who think the war was ended too quickly and not very believably. I tend to disagree in that case.
Essentially, it's the way you perceive and interpret certain issues and what weight you assign to each of them.

Neroon said:

Daedalus12 said:
I always thought it wasn't Sheridan who affected the outcome in Coriana 6 but Lorien of whom both the Vorlon and the Shadows respect.

Of course that is not to say Sheridan didn't play an important role. The younger races must know about the ideological struggle first.

Lorien was critical to setting it up.... but it was Sheridan who put it in plain, simple terms... helped by the suicide interceptions by the Minbari and I think Drazi ships. What was said had to come from Sheridan, speaking as leader of the coalition, proof that they would not accept either the Vorlon or Shadow philosophy. That the younger races would decide on their own terms what to do. If Lorien says it.... you're right the Vorlons and Shadows would respect him and might acceded for a time. Yet it took Sheridan to show them that the younger races no longer wanted or even needed their guidance.

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

Lindley said:

Justtoyourleft said:
- The show is amazing from about the end of S2 up until the end of the Shadow war. I found the way the war ended to be somewhat anticlimactic. They talked their way out of it? Sent the bullies away? I don't know, it didn't really work for me, to be honest. There are worse ways to do it but definitely better ones as well, I think.

You have to understand JMS' mindset on this. He knows as well as anyone that violence is sometimes necessary to stop the bad guys. But he does not condone violence just for the sake of "looking cool", and in both B5 and Jeremiah, the *final* solution to a situation is rarely violent, no matter how much shooting occurred during the lead-up.

On the one hand, as a viewer, this can be disappointing. On the other, he does lay out for the viewer exactly how things are going to end; if the viewer doesn't notice or chooses to ignore the foreshadowing, that can hardly be laid at JMS' doorstep.

In the case of the Vorlons and Shadows, by the time of "Into the Fire", it was well-established that their motives for fighting hinged on the control of the younger races' development. When Sheridan (and by proxy his entire, multi-race fleet) rejected both sides, the entire reason for them to fight was gone. Any further battle would have been out of sheer spite on their part, and supposedly the First Ones are more evolved than that.

The people who are disappointed by the ending of the Shadow War are probably the same people who are disappointed by the ending of The Matrix Revolutions!

 

[MyCylon]

^^
lol

 

[The Habs Fan]

Just watched A Day In The Strife.

Very interesting episode. We have G'Kar leaving B5 to return to the homeworld, Vir leaving to Minbar, and Dr Franklin addicted to stims. I'm a little worried how much more we'll be seeing of G'Kar and Vir, two of my favourite characters, but I'm sure something will happen to bring them back. Also, a character going through an addiction is a very brave thing to write about and JMS is handling it very well so far.