Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Continuing Arc

[Orac Zen]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Neroon said:
jms himself admits to being rather off the mark (understatement there, eh?) with the a-plot of "Grey 17".

Just a slight understatement, yes. As I said, the episode isn't the worst in the series, but the quality contrast between the A and B plots is...err...rather extreme.

And btw... Neroon always had a brain. He just had to grow a heart.

Pfftt, you would say that.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

"Shadow Dancing"

Franklin looks pretty bad in this episode, but unlike in "Walkabout," his B-Plot works, and helps to break up the chaos of the A-Plot with the Shadow's battle against the Forces of Light. Speaking of which, that battle is pretty incredible, and finally thrusts our characters into the middle of the Shadow War that has been spoken of and seen in glimpses throughout the whole season. And the final moment is a surprise, to say the least.

Grade: A

"Z'ha'dum"

What can I say about this episode--everything in it is incredible, leading up to the final ten minutes which are, needless to say, explosive. I loved this episode when I first saw it and I love it now.

Grade: A+

"The Hour of the Wolf" and "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?"

These two episodes don't move as fast as I would like, but that is the inevitable result of the game-changing finale of season three. Londo is on homeworld. Garibaldi is missing, captured by the Psi Corp. Sheridan is presumed dead. Delenn is grieveing for him. Ivanova is having a crisis with herself, and the rest of the alliance, which is falling apart. Mr. Morden continues to manipulate things. Lyta and the Vorlons have their own thing going on. And G'Kar is searching for his friend, Garibaldi. These episodes have a lot to juggle around, and are weighed down a little by Londo's story, which JMS takes his fine time telling.

Grade: A-

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

"The Summoning" and "Falling Towards Apotheosis"

The best episodes of the opening arc in season four, these have two great moments. First, Sheridan returns. Secondly, the Vorlon is killed. These moments make these episodes.

Grade: A

"The Long Night"

Things are building up to the conclusion of this arc, which I didn't like upon first viewing. Nevertheless, there are plenty of powerful moments here. A bit much talking to the camera and not to the characters, but I have come to expect that from Babylon 5, at least in moderation.

Grade: A-

"Into The Fire"

"Well, that was anti-climactic" said my friend Andrew at the end of this episode. I still have to agree. The idea is there, but the execution is not. There's just no sacrifice for anyone against the Shadows. Sure, a bunch of nameless ships get destroyed, but no one we care about has to make any sort of sacrifice. G'Kar sacrifices, and Vir, sure, but no one on the end of Sheridan's story. Londo says he can't believe the war is over, and I can't either. JMS rushed things on this, big time.

Grade: C+

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Rushed things a bit? Of course he did, but what choice did he have, given the knowledge (at that time) that there would be no 5th season? It isn't the best episode from a story standpoint, of course. But the problem I have with most criticism of the resolution is that this fight was never the conventional type. It goes back to Sheridan's comment in "And the Rock Cried Out", that this is about ideology and terror. As to sacrifice.... that comes later. But then I can see why you would say this if you're watching it the first time. After you see the rest of the series, then you can see the sacrifices Sheridan & CO had to make were already made or are yet to come, as of this episode.


Yes I can see why some feel the end is anticlimactic, and I agree slightly.... but given the other parameters, I don't have nearly as much of a problem with it.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
I understand the real life situation, and I understand that there would be sacrifices later. I've seen the series through once already. But I wonder, what if Marcus was the one who sacrificed himself so that the Shadows uncovered the misinformation? Or what if it was one of our heros who flew into the field of fire to protect the White Star?

The rest of the season, especially beginning with "No Surrender, No Retreat" is some of the best of Babylon 5. And I look forward to that.

And, as I said before, my problem was not with the idea of "Into the Fire." It's just that the execution is off. The pacing doesn't work, the conclusion doesn't work. There's more of a feeling of confusion than relief at the end of the Shadow War. I realize that there will be more battles to come--and soon, but I guess I was hoping for more from the end of the Shadow War. *shrug*

"Epiphanies"

Here, the series is back on track. G'Kar confronts Londo, very restrained. Those two will not be able to look each other in the eye for some time (well, as much time as the rushed season will allow). Something is wrong with Mr. Garibaldi (and now it seems obvious what that is, given Bester's comments at the end of the episode). And speaking of Bester, Walter Koenig is the highlight of the episode when he speaks to his frozen lover, all played in one shot with a great performance and great camerawork. Garibaldi resigns, too, which makes sense, given the end of the Shadow War and his recent behavior. And, finally, Zack and Lyta begin a relationship that I've always been a fan of (and one of the reasons I look forward to Thirdspace, which I have yet to see for the first time). Of course, that will all be crushed by a thorough character assassination of Lyta with Byron's crap in season five, but for now, I am happy.

Grade: A

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Voices of Authority"

The "Draal" actor is so annoying.
And I never liked Marcus/Ivanova.
so what's the point?

though, the "who knew they were french" line was funny

oh, and note to JMS: nekkid != sexy

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Dust to Dust"
It's always nice to see Bester again, as delightfully evil as he is. And G'Kar has some wonderful moments here when he attacks Londo.

not a fan of Bester, so i normally skip this one - but saw it this time around, just for kicks. and it's really great!
Kosh is such a manipulative asshole

The "great" Londo Mollari only got this job, cause no one else was stupid enough to take it!!!
great line!

Garibaldi is disturbingly cringe-worthy in this episode...

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Exogenesis"

always skip this crap.
who gives a flying fuck about Duncan anyway?
wanna see my pike?

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
And, as I said before, my problem was not with the idea of "Into the Fire." It's just that the execution is off. The pacing doesn't work, the conclusion doesn't work. There's more of a feeling of confusion than relief at the end of the Shadow War. I realize that there will be more battles to come--and soon, but I guess I was hoping for more from the end of the Shadow War. *shrug*

I agree that the execution didn't work, but I tend to give them a bit of a pass on it due to those extenuating circumstances. However, I think that the conclusion DOES work if for no other reason than it was different from most other huge grand sci-fi story. It wasn't resolved with the requisite galactic-sized shoot 'em up. Now had they continued with that battle and resolved it that way, then I guess I would be the one disappointed with the conclusion.

I don't know that having Marcus make that sacrifice instead of Ericson would have worked out any better. At that point in time, Claudia was still going to stay with the show, and so it was imperatave that Marcus be kept alive as well. For me... the sacrifices were either already made - with Sheridan's loss of perhaps 40+ years off his life due to Z'ha'dum - or yet to come with the Earth civil war and the conflicts with the Drakh.

To each their own, though.

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Messages from Earth" / "Point of No Return" / "Severed Dreams"

Probably three of the greatest episodes Babylon 5 has ever done in a row, I can't speak enough praise of these episodes. I can't say everything that's right on the money, so rather than possibly miss something, I'll just say this.

Grade: A+ (This is why season three is my favorite of B5. Simply incredible).

So Homefront aired the week of January 1, 1996, and Paradise Lost the week of January 8, 1996.

Then Messages from Earth, Point of No Return, Severed Dreams aired starting the week of February 19, 1996.

so, did DS9 do a better job, or B5?
which show copied from which?

people claim DS9 was basically a rip off of B5, in which case, does the the earlier air-date for DS9 adequately rebuff such an allegation?


/ not a shadow

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Don't even think of stirring that crap up.

 

[Jan]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Neroon said:

Hirogen Alpha said:
And, as I said before, my problem was not with the idea of "Into the Fire." It's just that the execution is off. The pacing doesn't work, the conclusion doesn't work. There's more of a feeling of confusion than relief at the end of the Shadow War. I realize that there will be more battles to come--and soon, but I guess I was hoping for more from the end of the Shadow War. *shrug*

I agree that the execution didn't work, but I tend to give them a bit of a pass on it due to those extenuating circumstances. However, I think that the conclusion DOES work if for no other reason than it was different from most other huge grand sci-fi story. It wasn't resolved with the requisite galactic-sized shoot 'em up. Now had they continued with that battle and resolved it that way, then I guess I would be the one disappointed with the conclusion.

I agree. C'mon, it was established from the beginning that the Shadows were nigh unto invincible, there's no way the younger races could possibly win a shooting war with both the Shadows *and* the Vorlons.

That said, for once I'm not thrilled with the editing of this one. In reading the script I think some lines were cut that would have better carried the idea that the younger races rejected being dictated to any longer, mainly because the 'help' of the First Ones had failed in their original goals.

Mal said:
people claim DS9 was basically a rip off of B5, in which case, does the the earlier air-date for DS9 adequately rebuff such an allegation?

In a word, no.

I agree with Neroon, don't start that up again. Or if you do, come back with *facts*, not innuendo. When was each episode written? What were the revision dates? What were the prep times for each? What exact dates were the episodes shot? What was the post-production schedule. Those are far more meaningful than air-date in answering your 'question'.

Jan

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Ceremonies of Light and Dark"

ok, what's the deal with the "wet floor" sign?

one of my favorite scenes in all of B5:

It is very interesting poison. It comes in two parts. Both are harmless on their own, but when combined they are quite lethal. The first settles into the blood stream and the intestinal walls. It stays there for years, silent, dormant, waiting. When the other half of the poison enters the body, the two meet - have a party in your cardio-vascular system, and suddenly you are quite dead.

Hirogen Alpha said:
"A Late Delivery from Avalon"

skipped.

I love the scene with the knighting of Sir G'kar (the green knight), but i ain't gonna waste a whole hour just to see it.

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Sic Transit Vir"

centauri women have annoying voices. londo's wife. now vir's. annoying!

and her speech on the village being burned like flowers blooming

abrahamo lincolni


note to JMS: nekkid != funny


six = hilarious

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Jan said:

Neroon said:

Hirogen Alpha said:
And, as I said before, my problem was not with the idea of "Into the Fire." It's just that the execution is off. The pacing doesn't work, the conclusion doesn't work. There's more of a feeling of confusion than relief at the end of the Shadow War. I realize that there will be more battles to come--and soon, but I guess I was hoping for more from the end of the Shadow War. *shrug*

I agree that the execution didn't work, but I tend to give them a bit of a pass on it due to those extenuating circumstances. However, I think that the conclusion DOES work if for no other reason than it was different from most other huge grand sci-fi story. It wasn't resolved with the requisite galactic-sized shoot 'em up. Now had they continued with that battle and resolved it that way, then I guess I would be the one disappointed with the conclusion.

I agree. C'mon, it was established from the beginning that the Shadows were nigh unto invincible, there's no way the younger races could possibly win a shooting war with both the Shadows *and* the Vorlons.

That said, for once I'm not thrilled with the editing of this one. In reading the script I think some lines were cut that would have better carried the idea that the younger races rejected being dictated to any longer, mainly because the 'help' of the First Ones had failed in their original goals.

I'm ready to let the issue die, because I pretty much agree with you on this one. Idea=works. Execution=doesn't. That's my two cents.

Moving on...

"Thirdspace" (I'll watch Illusion of Truth later)

This was the first time I've seen this movie, and for all the negative word I've heard about it, I was actually pretty impressed. Zack/Lyta is furthered a little bit more, IPX is seen again, Deuce makes a reappearance, and the Vorlons/Lyta get plenty of needed backstory. I wouldn't even call this one standalone because of all the detail of that part. If anything didn't work, it was Sheridan's space walk (just looked cheesy, and didn't entirely make sense) and the last shot of our intrepid crew walking in slow motion (aren't they heroic, boys and girls?). Still, count me impressed. For this and In The Beginning (and the Gathering out of sheer necessity) I think I will buy the movies box set when I see it for a decent price.

Grade: A-

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Ship of Tears"
Bester finally shifts from being a 2-D villian to something much more complex in this episode, and the B5 legacy is much better for it. It's a shame the storyline of his lover is never really revisited, besides some passing references up to "Rising Star."

Grade: A-

I agree 100%
This is the first time I really liked Bester, too bad they didn't do more with him as an ally. Fortunately I also like him as Garibaldi's nemesis in Season 5, so he isn't completely wasted.

also, great line: one does not thump the book of g'quan

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Interludes and Examinations"
Sheridan's confrontation with Kosh is one of the finest moments in the series. Kosh's death is surprisingly emotional a moment. And Mr. Morden's manipulations of Londo make me pissed every time I see them.

Grade: A

much better than i remember. i always loved the last scene (Kosh's burial for all intents and purposes), but the scene where sheridan confronts him (get off your encounter-suited-butts and do something) is really quite good.

Kosh is just a prop, but his death is really quite powerful, and you get a real sense that he was in fact scared of dying. but he chose to anyway, and in the B5 'verse, that's all that matters.

Hirogen Alpha said:
"War Without End"

Finally Sinclair's destiny is revealed, in two of the most satisfying hours of Babylon 5. If I have any complaints, it is the sheer amount of exposition that is crammed into the first part, slowing things down.

Grade: A- (Part One); A (Part Two)

Sinclair = Valen, is one of the most amazing parts of Babylon 5 (right up there with G'kar and Londo strangling each other to death - out of love!)

But the execution of this story line (Babylon 4, WWE I & II) is so ham-handed and flawed, it hurts. and yet they make a great story, and even great TV.

my HUGEST PET PEEV of all of B5, of course, is the damn red dress. and it pissed my off this time too.

but just the whole "unstuck in time" versus the time-flashes - too many crazy time scifi stuff. they should have stuck with one or the other, because having both is just too fucking confusing.

and the blue bunny suit intel guys "The One" is just retarded.

still, it gives us Valen
and it gives us the context of the Londo/G'kar death
and for that it will always be great

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Walkabout"

Lyta really is everyone's bitch.
the way people (and other life forms) treat her, is it any wonder she ends up so pissed off by the end of the show?!?
poor poor Lyta. she and Zach should have just run away together and skipped out on the whole shadow war.

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Grey 17 is Missing"

I've heard this refered to as the worst episode of Babylon 5 in polite company, and quite frankly, I just don't see it. The only part of the episode that doesn't work for me is the cult that Garibaldi discovers, and even the absurdity of that works out in the end when Garibaldi meets Sheridan. Additionally, the Minbari story is very well done, and follows up on the events of the previous two episodes very well.

Grade: B+

Amen, brother!

I always enjoy this episode. I dig the Mimbari paganism (later adopted by G'kar).

We are the universe, made manifest. We are star-stuff. We are the universe trying to understand itself. :thumbsup:

And, this is the only episode in which I like Marcus.
We are Rangers.
We walk in the dark places no others will enter.
We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass.
We live for the One, we die for the One.

And Neroon is excellent as always. What a voice! and i love his laugh.

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

From the Lurker's Guide page for "War Without End, part 2":

About the "Babylon Squared" inconsistencies
=
Yes, the conference room thing is a glitch, in that I had the way to do it, but it would've meant adding about 3 minutes to the episode, and I just couldn't fit it in.
(It basically would've involved him being hidden in the room when there's a timeflash.)
=
=
Ivanova et al *were* working actively to get the crew to evacuate, using the fake reactor reading. If they hadn't really cared about it, they would've let the station continue running through time to its destination, or the present; they fought to stop it so they could let the crew get off.

=
=

No, Delenn hadn't been appearing/disappearing before this, but Sheridan *had*, so it's reasonable to assume he was seen. Also, we don't know how much time passed between the sighting we notice, and the alert to Krantz.

=
=

We couldn't match the clothing properly, so we dispensed with it.

=
=

I know about the sleeve...and actually she didn't touch him in WWE2. It was one of those days when it was a hideous production schedule, and I wasn't on set, and it slipped by everybody else.

=
=

The element I couldn't quite fit into War....
In B2, Krantz says they found Zathras when there was a flash, and he appeared in a conference room.

=
=

Now, I sketched out that scene when it came time to actually write the whole WWE two-parter. What happened, basically, was that Zathras was passing by a room where he saw the one piece he still needed to finish his repairs on the time stabalizer. He slips in, as best he can, unnoticed...the meeting goes on as he goes under a table to get the piece of equipment...he finishes just as there's another time-flash...as it ends, momentarily disoriented, he's discovered, and captured.

=
=

This would've matched what was in B2, as I'd intended. Unfortunately, it added several minutes of screen time that I couldn't afford. I would've had to cut something somewhere else, and that script was so tight it screamed as it was. So I had to fudge how I did that and let the small inconsistency go. The only other thing I could've cut, the one moveable piece, was Sinclair trying to radio Garibaldi at the end...and I didn't want to lose that.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Mal said:

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Messages from Earth" / "Point of No Return" / "Severed Dreams"

Probably three of the greatest episodes Babylon 5 has ever done in a row, I can't speak enough praise of these episodes. I can't say everything that's right on the money, so rather than possibly miss something, I'll just say this.

Grade: A+ (This is why season three is my favorite of B5. Simply incredible).

So Homefront aired the week of January 1, 1996, and Paradise Lost the week of January 8, 1996.

Then Messages from Earth, Point of No Return, Severed Dreams aired starting the week of February 19, 1996.

so, did DS9 do a better job, or B5?
which show copied from which?

people claim DS9 was basically a rip off of B5, in which case, does the the earlier air-date for DS9 adequately rebuff such an allegation?


/ not a shadow

And NOT funny.

SOOOOO not funny.

Thankfully, none of the usual suspects have been around yet to help you stir up this particular pot. But the stirring stops now.

This thread is designed for DS9 fans who have discovered B5 to have pleasant conversation and for them to encourage other DS9 fans to give the show a try. It is NOT a thread that is intended to re-open old wounds with that pointless War Without End over who 'stole' from who.

In fact, the intent here is just the opposite - it is an attempt at HEALING those wounds and illustrating that Babylon 5 fandom and DS9 fandom are NOT necessarily mutually exclusive. The idea is to share the wealth of TWO fantastic shows. Not to tear down one at the expense of the other.

There is a reason why I'm hosting this thread and Neroon is running it (and will continue to run it, as far as I'm concerned, for as long as he wants the job). We are all about unity here.

We used to post this intention at the beginning of each new thread so that people would remember. Maybe we ought to start doing that again in the next thread, Neroon???

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

We could always threaten them with the Starfire Wheel. Or maybe a couple sessions of mura'dum

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^ Or would could just lock them in a room with Byron for the duration.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Oh...and as long as I'm in here, I have a comment about Grey 17 is Missing.

It's really too bad they named it that, because that brings emphasis to the not-so-great A plot (which I'm not even fully convinced IS the A plot) and away from the Delenn/Neroon/Marcus storyline, which IMO is much more significant to the overall arc of the show.

I watched this episode again a few weeks ago, and while it used to be among my least favorite episodes (I wish they'd have not done that whole Chuckie thing with the puppet), I have bumped it up, because really...the B plot is so well done that it cancels out the not-so-great A plot.

In particular, the Marcus/Neroon ending is just priceless.

Can someone quote exactly what Marcus says to Neroon in Medlab? That "Next time you want to..." line? That line is priceless!

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
I can't quote the line, but I have to say, the Neroon/Marcus plot really is the A-Plot of the episode. I think it gets more screen-time than Garibaldi's plot, which really only exists to give Garibaldi something to do while getting his character out of the way so Neroon's story can be carried forward.

EDIT: "The next time... the next time you want a revelation, could you possibly find a way that isn't quite so... uncomfortable?"

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Nice work, Hirogen.

Incidentally, when looking for a sound file or a quote, a great resource is THe Down-Below Sound Archive. It doesn't have everything - such as the above quote - but it has an impressive sample nonetheless.