Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Continuing Arc

[Jan]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

I've always liked "A Late Delivery from Avalon", the first two music suites and the "Best of" CD.

Did you know that you can get them pretty cheap from Christopher Franke's own website? I've ordered many of the CDs from them and always gotten great service.

Jan

 

[Jan]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Neroon said:
Good work... now your next assignment Shai Alyt Jan, is to find any quotes from The Great Maker where he references the 2 or 3 caste Minbari system.

Geez, you don't ask for much, do you?

Okay, for a start there's the post JMS made back in 1991 where he first introduced us to the Minbari:

The war put a great strain on the Minbari, who have always been strongly
divided between the religious caste, and the military caste, who were now
forced to work together. The religious caste were quietly opposed to the war,
but were generally vague about their reasons when asked.

One notes, though, that the strain beween the two castes mentioned doesn't rule out the presence of other castes.

In Volume 1 of the Script books there was a memo written July 6, 1992 that, while not specifically mentioning the caste system says:

With the realization that their race may be heading for extinction, their unity of purpose is beginning to fracture...some moving further and further into the metaphysical, while others seek to lash out physically and militarily. The division between these two sides is getting larger with each passing year.

Which seems to indicate two castes still.

The B5 bible was written in May of 1993 and doesn't mention the religious caste at all, much less the workers caste.

By December 25 of 1993 there are definitely three castes:

From: STRACZYNSKI [Joe]
Subject: Yeah, fairly much, as far as it...
To: GENIE
Date: 12/25/1993 7:28:00 PM

Yeah, fairly much, as far as it goes. There's some Jananese
influence,
as well as some early European influences, as well as middle
Eastern
influences. (There are three Minbari castes: the worker, warrior
and
religious castes.)

jms

BINGO!! Y'know, I'm beginning to wonder if we almost don't have too much information on this show. In Volume 2 of the Script Books, JMS says in the introduction to Babylon Squared:

So the model for the Grey Council is similar to the structure of medieval society, which can be broken down into three basic groups: workers, soldiers and the clregy. There's a bit more equality between the various divisions in the Grey Council than was the case in Medieval England, but even among the Minbari a bit of the caste system continues. Thus it was that when Delenn mentions the Grey Council for the first time, she explains that it is made up of members of the Religious and Warrior caste. She simply forgot to mention the Worker Caste.

which is footnoted:

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

The draft of Babylon Squared in the Script Book is dated 1/31/94 while the Writer's Draft that I have is dated 1/14/94.

So offhand, I think we have proof that the notion of three castes wasn't around originally and that at least one mention of two castes was an (Gasp! Dare I say it?? ) error.

Whew! Good thing you made me Shai Alyt!

Jan

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Jan said:
I've always liked "A Late Delivery from Avalon", the first two music suites and the "Best of" CD.

Did you know that you can get them pretty cheap from Christopher Franke's own website? I've ordered many of the CDs from them and always gotten great service.

Jan

And I almost bought Late Delivery from Avalon today. I'll have to pick that one up, for sure.

And, I have been to C. Franke's website, but the CDs (even as cheap as they are there) are still a bit out of my price range. That's what I get for being a poor college student I guess. Any more than $5 a CD and I'm leery of it. As you might guess, I haven't bought too many CDs in the past few years.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

"Revelations"
Everything comes together in this episode. I don't know if it's the music, or the acting, or the writing, or all of that, but everything just clicks. I wish Babylon 5 had started with this amount of energy. Almost as much as I wish season five had started with this amount of energy.
Grade: A+

"The Geometry of Shadows"
Another very good episode. I especially like the Techno-Mages. It's a shame they won't appear again on Babylon 5 (besides Crusade, Call to Arms, and the new DVD movieS). Plus, Purple Drazi and Green Drazi! Still, this episode isn't as good as the previous, and there are one or two moments where it isn't edited or directed quite as well as I would have liked. Hey, I have to pick at something.

Grade: A-

"A Distant Star"
This episode would have been another A- if it wasn't for the poor acting on the part of the guest actors. The captain of the visiting explorer ship is probably the best of the lot, and even he leaves much to be desired. A shame, since the script is pretty strong, except of course the idea that no one has been found in hyperspace, but Captain Sheridan can find and rescue someone with a pretty simple plan. I'm surprised he didn't just nuke 'em.

Grade: B-

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Revelations"
Everything comes together in this episode. I don't know if it's the music, or the acting, or the writing, or all of that, but everything just clicks. I wish Babylon 5 had started with this amount of energy. Almost as much as I wish season five had started with this amount of energy.
Grade: A+

i just saw this episode again yesterday, and i was amazed at how quickly it goes by. you know all the major things that are going to happen (a) g'kar and the shadows, (b) garibaldi and his shooter/assistant, (c) the call from the president, and (d) DELENN! from what i remember of it, i hated (HATED) sheridan's sister (one of the early reasons i disliked his character, which has stayed with me all these years), and yet, rewatching the episode, i realize, if she wasn't there to slow things down to a boring level, this episode would just fly by, and you'd have absolutely no idea where 45 minutes of your life just went.

(oh, and sheridan sees a tape of his wife, who is played by someone way hotter than his wife in real life and in later seasons...which must be awkward )

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
I always liked his real-wife who showed up later. Sure, the first woman was hotter, but I just didn't see anything between her and Boxleitner. I guess it helped actually being married to the second version of his Anna.

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Incidentally, in "A Distant Star"... I don't suppose you recognized the guy who played Capt. Maynard did you?

 

[Lindley]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^Joan of Arcadia's dad.

Mal said:i hated (HATED) sheridan's sister

I rather enjoyed seeing Kate Monday again. (Mathnet was never the same with Pat Tuesday....)

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Lindley said:
^Joan of Arcadia's dad.

When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way....

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
Oh, yeah... I can't believe I didn't see that. Still didn't care for his performace all that much on B5, but he was great in West Side Story. (I don't care, I love that musical )

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
^^
Oh, yeah... I can't believe I didn't see that. Still didn't care for his performace all that much on B5, but he was great in West Side Story. (I don't care, I love that musical )

he was amazing in West Side Story, but sucked in B5. the whole ep sucked.

sucked.

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
I wouldn't go THAT far. The episode, I think, was just mediocre. But I imagine we're splitting hairs at this point-- Revelations, awesome episode, A Distant Star, a not awesome episode.

 

[DWF]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
^^
I always liked his real-wife who showed up later. Sure, the first woman was hotter, but I just didn't see anything between her and Boxleitner. I guess it helped actually being married to the second version of his Anna.

The first Anne was played by Beth Toussaint who was Tasha Yar's sister in TNG's Legacy, she's also married to Jack Coleman from Heroes. :thumbsup:

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

DWF said:
The first Anne was played by Beth Toussaint who was Tasha Yar's sister in TNG's Legacy...

i think B5 would have been much better if we had had the original hot anna in the later seasons

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Pounded out five more episodes this evening, culminating with the brilliant "The Coming of Shadows."

"The Long Dark"
This episode, despite being mainly standalone (besides some foreshadowing of the Shadows) is pretty good. It really suffers from only three drawbacks. First, the opening isn't as clearly written as it could be, and leaves some confusion. Even entering into this episode a second time, I can't help feel "WTF?" at the teaser. Secondly, there seems to be something missing from the time Garibaldi goes after the Soldier of Darkness and the time it's taken out. It almost feels like they cut material for time. Lastly, there's the Soldier of Darkness itself, which is so vaguely outlined in CGI that it's hard to tell if they're fighting anything at all. That being said, the performances are surprisingly good, especially from Dwight Schultz.

Grade: B

"A Spider in the Web"
This episode isn't that great for what it is, but it is great for what it sets up. If not for the mysterious role of the Psi-Corp and "Control" (and some further background on the Mars situation), it really could be defined as "Attack of the Cyber Zombie from Mars!" Still, one cool cyber zombie it is.

Grade: B

"A Race through Dark Places"
This episode is pretty good, but now, upon second viewing, I can't help but frame it in the disaster that would become the Byron Arc. How do these telepaths relate to Byron, anyways? Are these ones dealt with later on in the season/series, and Byron's are a completely different group? Clearly there's some sort of gap in my memory. And the ending is absolutely great, with some wonderful foreshadowing on something that would happen to Lyta instead. Somehow I like the idea of the Vorlons creating an uber-telepath more than I do the idea of Ironheart being responsible.

Grade: A-

"Soul Mates"
This episode isn't that bad, really. It's just that, with the telepath story before it, and the Londo story after it (in The Coming of Shadows), it just seems like "filler" to me. Still, some great laughs with Londo and his wives, and some interesting insights into Talia here. If only JMS had been able to fully realize the Ivanova/Talia angle, instead of just leaving vague ideas of it behind. Oh well.

Grade: B

"The Coming of Shadows"
This is another great episode, equal to "Revelations". Everything comes together (in an episode where, ironically, everything comes apart). Kosh says everything will end in fire. Is he referring to the end of the Shadow War ("Into the Fire") or Mollari's end (with the burning of Centauri Prime)? And Sinclair make his sole appearance in season two, which surprisingly, is a joy. JMS held off a guest appearance just long enough to make it truly satisfying. I just wish Michael O'Hare came back again between now and "War Without End," but I surmise that wasn't possible (O'Hare filming his appearance in front of a white backdrop and with longer hair that's been hastily covered up. Was that filmed in New York while he was doing some play?). Well, I've talked far too long.

Grade: A+

P.S.
I know the masterlist at the Lurker's Guide has moved "Soul Mates" and "A Race through Dark Places," and I watched them in that order, but I can't seem to figure out why they wouldn't be better the other way around. With Delen's hair and outfit, it seems like they should be in DVD order to me. Of course, Talia's admission that she doesn't trust the Corp anymore should have them reversed (or, maybe not, considering what was revealed in "A Spider in the Web," though I don't see why she'd reveal that to Sheridan). Hmm...

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
"The Long Dark"

mostly garbage, another failed franklin hook-up. and lt. broccoli ain't great either. best skipped.
i wonder if dwight schrut is named after dwight schultz?

Hirogen Alpha said:
"A Spider in the Web"

since they dropped the whole area 51 (or was it section 31?!?!) thing, and dropped sheridan collecting secrets, skip this one too.

Hirogen Alpha said:
"A Race through Dark Places"

talia and ivanova are going to hook up... eventually!!!!

how hot is delenn in a little black dress!!!!!!
and we will all come together, in a better place

Hirogen Alpha said:
"Soul Mates"

not as good as i remember.

ladies, ladies...continue

 

[Neroon]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
^^
I wouldn't go THAT far. The episode, I think, was just mediocre. But I imagine we're splitting hairs at this point-- Revelations, awesome episode, A Distant Star, a not awesome episode.

The purpose of "A Distant Star", however inadequately it may have been handled, was to underscore the change in Sheridan's life, give a little more fleshing out of his character. He goes from being captain of one of the Fleet's finest, to being tied to a desk where he is in one place, handling paperwork more than ever before. After the events involving the Cortez, he has a greater appreciation for what he can accomplish here on the station. It may be a different kind of life, but it's no less important.

This is not the best episode of the series by far... but it's also not a failure either. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give it a 7.

Besides..... two words: bagna cauda! :thumbsup:

 

[Lindley]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

The first time I really appreciated the Starfury launch sequence was during the rescue operation in A Distant Star.

But then, my first time through I missed a good deal of season 1.

 

[Mal]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

Hirogen Alpha said:
"The Coming of Shadows"
This is another great episode, equal to "Revelations". Everything comes together (in an episode where, ironically, everything comes apart). Kosh says everything will end in fire. Is he referring to the end of the Shadow War ("Into the Fire") or Mollari's end (with the burning of Centauri Prime)? And Sinclair make his sole appearance in season two, which surprisingly, is a joy. JMS held off a guest appearance just long enough to make it truly satisfying. I just wish Michael O'Hare came back again between now and "War Without End," but I surmise that wasn't possible (O'Hare filming his appearance in front of a white backdrop and with longer hair that's been hastily covered up. Was that filmed in New York while he was doing some play?). Well, I've talked far too long.

Grade: A+

Spot on. Reefa is such a great character. It makes me happy knowing that The Rock Cried out no Hiding Place is just a few seasons away

This was one of the first times G'Kar's speechifying really hits its stride:
For a hundred years, the Centauri occupied our world. Devestated it. We swore we would never let that happen again. This attack on our largest civilian colony has inflicted terrible damage and loss of life. They've crossed a line we cannot allow them to cross. As a result, two hours ago my government officially declared war against the Centauri Republic. Our hope for peace is over. We are now at war...we are now at war.

Oh and Vir's ominous "don't do this" and Londo's "i have no choice" and Vir's "yes you do... someday you will remember this conversation..." is really amazing, considering I just recently re-watched The Fall of Centauri Prime.

Question: Why didn't Cartagia have 4 telepaths when he was emperor (or Londo)?

 

[Harvey]

Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin

^^
I could imagine Cartagia had the telepaths whisked away out of fear, stupidity, or some other reason that only he could understand. He was a fool, really, so I don't think you can draw a parallel between him and the Emperor in season two. Londo, on the other hand, was controlled by the Keeper and the Drakh, so it makes sense that no telepaths would be present. Also, Centauri Prime was pretty devastated at the time. Perhaps they were put to better use rebuilding the civilization?